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Drs_Adelaar

Matchmaking shenigans

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Hi, let me from the start say that I'm not entirely sure this is the right place for this topic, so mods: move it if necessary.

 

I've bought the T7 Lyon a while ago, and while I think she's a fun ship, I'm usually not having much fun. For some reason, matchmaking is always unfavourable for me, and my win rate is currently somewhere in the high 30's to low 40's. My average winrate (throughout) is 54% and on good days where all the stars align there's a 75% peak winrate (See picture Summary View). Of course, in randoms, it's not so much the individual who can turn over a match (although a good strategy and skillset come a long way in turning tides). Thus, if I assume my skills are roughly equally distributed throughout all the ships I play (I have 50 ships in port), then the Lyon is really odd for its low win rate.

 

When I look at a cross-BB performance, I get even more confused. My Win-rate in the Lyon is by far the worst of T6-7 ships, even though battle performance is simular. See BB-comparison below.

 

So yesterday I did a test. I played a set of 16 games with just the Lyon. I lost 10 of them, and won 6. My average performance was usually in the Top 3 with Tier 5-6-7/ T 6-7 matches, and midfield with T 6-7-8. Average damage was within the 40k to 110k ballpark. But whenever I played these games, I noticed that there were a bunch of players who just rushed centerwords, gets yapped off the battlefield and the match was settled from there, even if I managed to perform good (which really is a challenge if you get focussed on by 3-6 ships at any single time), I would end up losing. To assure you that I'm not just a turd with this ship; despite my low win rate (which often means my team is at a disadvantage throughout a large part of the match), my average killratio and damage numbers are higher than average.

 

It's extremely frustrating, and I have no clue what's causing this enormous discrepancy in Win-rate. I'm really not enjoying this ship at all anymore, and at this point I might as well skip it to T8. Does anyone have a clue what's going on, and how this can be resolved? Does the WG gameserver just hate this ship and overcompensate with having lesser performing teammates in the battle? I just have no clue anymore.

Edit: Same goes (but in the opposite direction) for T6 New Mex, which has an extremely high win rate with only above average performance. Although; Number of battles is lower so it could as well be favourable odds.

And before I end, I do know that it's possible that I just suck with this ship... But given my average performance, I see this as a relatively small chance, and matchmaking shenigans as the likely culprit...

 

Thanks for any answers provided, especially by a member of WG...

 

 

Summary view.JPG

BB-Comparison.JPG

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  • the MM is NOT ALWAYS unfavourable to you
  • low battle numbers lead to more variance in winrate
  • different BB have different playstyle, and not all fit your personal playstyle
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4 minutes ago, Drs_Adelaar said:

Thus, if I assume my skills are roughly equally distributed throughout all the ships I play (I have 50 ships in port), then the Lyon is really odd for its low win rate. 

 

You would need to play like 100 games in every ship for that to balance out.

 

14 minutes ago, Drs_Adelaar said:

And before I end, I do know that it's possible that I just suck with this ship... But given my average performance, I see this as a relatively small chance, and matchmaking shenigans as the likely culprit... 

 

The only thing you could do, is to upload a couple of replays so we can have a look and see whats going on. Dealing damage is not the only way to win games. With Lyon you won 22 out of 56 games. If you would have gottin 6 wins instead, it would be 50% WR, which is actually still rather likely in terms of being unlucky.

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5 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:
  • the MM is NOT ALWAYS unfavourable to you
  • low battle numbers lead to more variance in winrate
  • different BB have different playstyle, and not all fit your personal playstyle

I know, which is why I pointed out the high win-rate with New Mex, and also why I adressed why that could be a fluke.

As for the playstyles, you are right. But Lyon isn't one of those BBs that I feel alienated from. I have more issues with New Mex (because it's so slow it really punishes a bad strategy) and Gneisenau (I have yet to find its sweet spot, despite liking its potential).

Lyon on the other hand is quite average at most things for me.

Thanks for your reply!

 

5 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

You would need to play like 100 games in every ship for that to balance out.

 

 

The only thing you could do, is to upload a couple of replays so we can have a look and see whats going on. Dealing damage is not the only way to win games. With Lyon you won 22 out of 56 games. If you would have gottin 6 wins instead, it would be 50% WR, which is actually still rather likely in terms of being unlucky. 

I did think about uploading replays. I'll upload 4 battles from yesterday. I'll randomize them by uploading the 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th battle. I know I lost the Okinawa and won the NE North match. The other two I'm unsure.

20200928_223834_PFSB107-Lyon_15_NE_north.wowsreplay

20200928_212641_PFSB107-Lyon_14_Atlantic.wowsreplay

20200928_200057_PFSB107-Lyon_13_OC_new_dawn.wowsreplay

20200928_174009_PFSB107-Lyon_40_Okinawa.wowsreplay

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7 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Lyon is very squishy with guns that work best vs CA.

Other BB are tougher.

True. Especially higher tier BBs I find to be a pain when they're properly angled, as the sigma reduces hitrates at a distance, the HE shells often fail to pen or set fires, and the AP shells are horrible at angled targets. I did struggle a fair bit yesterday against BBs.

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And there is a problem.

Do not waste too many shots on BB.

Try to get into positions to shoot mainly at CA.

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24 minutes ago, Drs_Adelaar said:

20200928_174009_PFSB107-Lyon_40_Okinawa.wowsreplay

 

Watched this just now, because you said you lost it. And i think, this was a game, which potentially could have been won.

 

Few things

- Dont focus on shooting HE all the time. Yes, Lyon has small caliber guns, and they even struggle at overmatching sametier BBs. But you want to keep blasting AP into peoples broadside, because 16 shells are bound to hit something

- If you have HE loaded, you have to shoot DDs. Even if its 15km or so, still gotta try. Only way to learn to hit DDs at range, and most of them cant heal that back, so everything helps.

- Dont DCP 1 fire if you are in danger of getting more fires or potentially even torps. The result was you getting 2 permafires

 

image.png.054ed620cf948d27dbc3277514b879c8.png

You went too far out, especially with a cyclone hitting. You took yourself out of the game once the sinop was dead and cyclone hit. You basicly came back to eat torps.

Id have prefered a central position, because your team had no BB there. You want to get crossfire, the more BBs split up, the better it is. Basicly you had 3 BBs on one spot behind C before you moved to the outside. And there was really no reason to move that far away from the Sinop. If the Sinop knows what to shoot, you were the least favourable BB to shoot at. Your armor, properly angled, can bounce Sinop shells, while Nagato and KGV cant. They will even take citadels through the bow.

Dont expect your friendly BBs to create crossfire btw. They are sheep, and they all run to one spot, thats why you have to be the difference.

The central position might have been risky, but it might also have prevented the Östergötland from killing your Kitakaze. Also every torp you can dodge, is a torp that your team doesnt take. Fighting a bow-on sinop is not something, you wanna do anyway. He kept 3 BBs, 2 Cruisers and 2 DDs busy for a good 6 minutes till he died. And your team lost a BB and a Cruiser ontop of that. So 7 vs 1, and result is your team lost more ships. Again the central position might have opened up more chances for you to deal damage to other ships behind B or those at A.

 

image.png.397d9f3b5345457cc24d49e866f1dbfb.png

Just to show you, where you were when the cyclone hit. No chance whatsover to get back into the game. Staying central early on, would have given you the opportunity to surprise enemies from a different angle during the cyclone.

 

image.png.1f55810c945b3badec826e4f7a40c5bd.png

Here is a good example to try to shoot the Colorado. You have the minimap, and a marker where you aim is. And you had teammates shooting him. Use this to try to hit your target, sometimes, every bit helps. Colorado is a particulary easy ship to hit, as its so slow, so you can just shoot a bit infront of the shells hitting him and you will hit.

Here an example from my own game

Spoiler

 

image.thumb.png.182bfee3939e2bbd6e9f46a8e86d25a5.png

I use the minimap + the marker to get my aim close to where i want it, while watching where my teammates hit him. Then i account for shell travel time.

image.thumb.png.b430a2d9d65f4b89ed9d3b71af50090b.png

And there he went.

image.thumb.png.31f49af4691e4c50cadbf6a7e4270f54.png

Literally the next salvo, got another one.

 

Its all about practice and trying out stuff. Its not impossible, the more you try it, the better you will become.

 

Back to your game

image.png.801979cf6f6e8ea5efb1d1fb81c7d1cd.png

The issue with being too far away: Your Kidd faces 2 DDs alone and gets killed ofc.

 

- If an IJN Cruiser is seeing a ship within its torprage: EXPECT to get torps coming your way. He only could torp one direction from the gap, and you steered a bit too far in the center taking a torp in B.

image.thumb.png.b0f1d9c9a16f8a4315039437eec2e4a4.png

Moments later, thats an AP moment potential devstrike. Many players play their IJN Cruisers as torpboats. Like this guy above. Doesnt shoot, only flat broadside so he can torp you.

In the end, the Asashio torps were to be expected. While it didnt really matter anyway, going broadside towards a potential torpedothreat is always a bad idea, even if the game was lost by that time.

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Good analysis, I do concur with the general gist of it. I disliked that match because I indeed found myself too far away and unable to support the team (thanks in part due to the slow speed of Lyon). So a lot of the combat potential was wasted that match. I believe it shows in terms of damage output, which comparitively low.

As for the AP shell remark. I of course know that HE struggles against BBs, but I've found AP to be even worse at causing damage because of penning problems. It can be RNG, but I had little luck with them yesterday.

 

Thanks for the thorough review though, it helps retrospective analysis... One thing I do struggle with on the Lyon, is 1) The amount of broadside you need to show to fire more than 2 guns, and 2) The sluggishness of them, meaning repositioning is really challenging, either meaning I can't fire the guns or I show broadside longer than intended. I also struggle more than on other BBs with shell choice, thanks to the peculariarities of both.

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48 minutes ago, Drs_Adelaar said:

As for the AP shell remark. I of course know that HE struggles against BBs, but I've found AP to be even worse at causing damage because of penning problems. It can be RNG, but I had little luck with them yesterday.

 

Id only use HE if i have to brute force my way through a certain ship, and especially for small caliber BBs, if you are lowtier and Cruisers can bowtank your shells. Otherwise, waiting for an opportunity to fire AP into an unsuspecting cruiser/BB is the way to go.

 

52 minutes ago, Drs_Adelaar said:

One thing I do struggle with on the Lyon, is 1) The amount of broadside you need to show to fire more than 2 guns, and 2) The sluggishness of them, meaning repositioning is really challenging, either meaning I can't fire the guns or I show broadside longer than intended.

Having the stern towards enemies can be easier, due to the turret layout. Against enemy BBs, you should be able to turn in and out between his shots.

 

54 minutes ago, Drs_Adelaar said:

I also struggle more than on other BBs with shell choice, thanks to the peculariarities of both.

Thats why its usually advisable to have AP loaded, to not miss out on potential broadside shots. Loading HE should be done if you are sure, there is no chance for AP being useful within the next minute.

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Your last comment is what seems straightforward, but seldomly is. I try to remain as situationally aware as possible, and using the appropriate shells. If I expect a DD to come out of the bushes I load up HE, knowing my effectiveness against cruisers will be limited. It's not always clear as ice which shell will be more relevant :)

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30 minutes ago, Drs_Adelaar said:

Your last comment is what seems straightforward, but seldomly is. I try to remain as situationally aware as possible, and using the appropriate shells. If I expect a DD to come out of the bushes I load up HE, knowing my effectiveness against cruisers will be limited. It's not always clear as ice which shell will be more relevant :)

 

I prefer shooting AP at DDs than having HE loaded for a Cruiser broadside.

In something like german BBs i pretty much dont bother at all, because their HE is so pathetic.

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I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that there is already a pinned thread for discussing shenanigans... I mean matchmaking. Actually no effing difference....:Smile_hiding:

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'MM Shenanigans'. ROFL. You are too polite. WG will never alter their MM Shenanigans - 'it's working as intended'.

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