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Honey_Badger621

(Lack of) Initiative to help teammates?

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Does anyone else feel like sometimes people lack...Initiative when playing games?

 

What I mean is: Players who only look out for themselves rather than anyone else until you start spamming them to do something.

 

For example: look at destroyer's who have smoke generators, (in my experience at least) I only ever see them popping a smoke for themselves when they're capturing a point, despite having cruisers and battleships behind them taking tons of damage, while the DD just sits around taking pot shots. A little nitpicky? Sure, but it's also what I've seen a lot when playing lately

 

I'm not gonna go preaching and say I'm gods holy gift and never done this (I mean hell my stats are laughably bad, even I know it), I've done the above to save my own rear-side many times, I'm pretty confident in saying we all have, but I mean more at the start of the game where the destroyer isn't spotted but the singular battleship or cruiser behind them has and there's 5 ships ready to citadel the living hell out of them, or if an aircraft carrier only cares about stealing kills instead of putting a fighter down where there's a destroyer/cruiser/battleship being harassed to hell and back.

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[-TFD2]
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Teamplay is not nearly as rewarded as doing damage which is a lot of whats wrong with this game.  

 

When I play DD friendly Battleships that are in trouble never expect me to drop smoke on them and often sail away from it just cause the thought I can do that never crosses their mind.

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[XTREM]
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There used to be more smoking up of friendlies before. The reason it's more like this nowadays is because the addition of smoke firing penalties which happened years back. 

If I as a DD lay smoke for a friendly who's to say it wouldn't be a waste of smoke and time because the friendly is a potato who doesn't understand how smoke firing works, thus negating my smoke altogether?

 

The way things are, you may as well save it for yourself, since you have limited charges and moving from A to B to lay smoke takes time that may better be used elsewhere. 

Not to mention with the increased CV pop. saving smoke for yourself as a DD is even more important.

 

In competitive and/or with coordination on the other hand it's a different story. 

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[SHAFT]
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Smoking up BBs is 99% useless, as they would be spotted after shooting anyway. From the 1% where it would make sense to save your BB, 9 out of 10 wont understand it and keep shooting only to be spotted again and die.

WG made smoking up friendlies much less useful when they introduced smoke firing penalty, especially for Cruisers. You can still smoke up some of them, but the others will also be spotted after shooting. Especially if you lure them too much to the front, they are more likely to die even.

 

CV fighter planes are pretty much useless when it comes to defending your allies. They are worth more for the CV himself to spot a DD so he can attack him, or at best used for his team to spot other ships while he is starting a new squad.

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The problem with team play is twofold; 

 

First of all it's not directly rewarded (I guess you might pick up a few compliments but they are worth nothing). So very few players see a direct benefit to them in helping out teammates whilst their attitude might be short term and detrimental to their win rate a lot of people think that way. 

 

Secondly is past experience of trying trying to help teammates. I bet pretty much everyone here who plays DD has had the experience of saying in chat or being asked to set a smoke screen for a friendly cruiser and then see said cruiser go straight through the smoke rather than use it. In part the smoke firing penalty doesn't help plenty of people don't know what their ships penalty is so sometimes they ask for it but are already too close so cannot slow down. 

 

Radar is another one, radar an enemy DD that you yourself cannot shoot but you did it to help them team as 4 teammates could shoot the target but none of them will even when they ask you to radar. 

 

The consequence though of such teammates is it makes people be more selfish when it comes to their consumables. However there are times when things go well I still optimistically persist in trying to tell teammates in chat what I'm going to do if it's for their benefit.

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WG has been so kind to remove all previous team play tactics from this game and focused on blobbing, which is according to some, team play :cap_hmm:

Spoiler

It isn't.

 

I smoke up Battlebabes that are focused or in trouble to give them a breather to heal up or retreat. The number of times the smoke is ignored is staggering. Instead of holding fire and using the smoke to flush fires and floodings, heal up or tactically retreat, some fire the next salvo as soon as it's ready. Teamwork like that is not always recognised. Experience learns that you need to pick your buddy to help carefully or you'll be wasting a precious smoke stack. Also, carriers make sure DDs are reluctant to help teammates using smoke, because they need it in case of emergencies. One of the many genius side effects of the carrier rework. Well done WG :cap_like:

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[WRV]
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When WoWs started there were no snoke firing penalty and the radar information was shared with everyone immediately.

But teamplay is OP, so its not usefull anymore to sit in smoke as a heavy cruiser or BB.

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15 minutos antes, lovelacebeer dijo:

set a smoke screen for a friendly cruiser and then see said cruiser go straight through the smoke rather than use it

+1

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[CATS]
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28 minutes ago, Honey_Badger621 said:

Does anyone else feel like sometimes people lack...Initiative when playing games?

 

What I mean is: Players who only look out for themselves rather than anyone else until you start spamming them to do something.

 

For example: look at destroyer's who have smoke generators, (in my experience at least) I only ever see them popping a smoke for themselves when they're capturing a point, despite having cruisers and battleships behind them taking tons of damage, while the DD just sits around taking pot shots. A little nitpicky? Sure, but it's also what I've seen a lot when playing lately

Most cruisers and BB do not profit from smoke, since they are either spotted when shooting, just sail through the smoke or get torped out of the smoke.

DD smoke is just too valuable to waste it.

You should remember that a DD has to be VERY carefull when the smoke is on cooldown, resulting in less spotting.

 

For other ships it is better to play in a way that you do not need smoke or you make sure you communicate your plan with the DD in question. When you do that, most DD players are happy to help.

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If people ask I will lay smoke for them, but they don't.

And too many DDs turn sideways and smoke when they are just outside the cap, usually just as I'm about to fire on a red ship which vanishes......

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44 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

to set a smoke screen for a friendly cruiser and then see said cruiser go straight through the smoke rather than use it.

 

Not too long ago had a Fiji waste his smoke to smoke me up in my Massa.... its kinda sad, when they try to help you, but you have to tell them, i cant use it while thanking them :Smile_sad:

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[LUZ1]
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It's not only smoke. Ships move sideways or back after spawn. They lemming to one side leaving you completely alone trying to defend a flank. I had a game this afternoon when 3 ships left me alone to defend the passage to our base alone against 5 enemies. I kept them back for more than 10 minutes then died in concentrated fire and they captured our base. It is beyond stupid :cap_win:

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Its a double-edged sword, as many have already mentioned.

 

WG rewards damage over all and have removed several teamplay mechanics over the years, most likely because unicums in divisions were "exploiting" them.

But ofc nothing stops people from playing as a team - yet they dont.

 

I honor your view of the game @Honey_Badger621 and please dont ever leave the path of viewing this as a teamplay game. I suggest you look for a clan ASAP, where you can learn more about how to really make use of teamplay. Chatting with more experianced players helps aswell as playing in divisions. There is a sub-forum part, where players can look for clans aswell as clans with free spots looking for new members. Im sure you find what you are looking for there.

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/forum/507-clan-zone/

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[TOXIC]
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2 hours ago, Honey_Badger621 said:

Does anyone else feel like sometimes people lack...Initiative when playing games?

 

What I mean is: Players who only look out for themselves rather than anyone else until you start spamming them to do something.

 

For example: look at destroyer's who have smoke generators, (in my experience at least) I only ever see them popping a smoke for themselves when they're capturing a point, despite having cruisers and battleships behind them taking tons of damage, while the DD just sits around taking pot shots. A little nitpicky? Sure, but it's also what I've seen a lot when playing lately

 

I'm not gonna go preaching and say I'm gods holy gift and never done this (I mean hell my stats are laughably bad, even I know it), I've done the above to save my own rear-side many times, I'm pretty confident in saying we all have, but I mean more at the start of the game where the destroyer isn't spotted but the singular battleship or cruiser behind them has and there's 5 ships ready to citadel the living hell out of them, or if an aircraft carrier only cares about stealing kills instead of putting a fighter down where there's a destroyer/cruiser/battleship being harassed to hell and back.

Setting smoke for allies died with shooting from smoke penalty introduction. Even before that people USUALLY failed to make good use of smoke given to them. Now using smoke for allies is a waste of smoke (and a way to compromise your own position and lose some time) 99% of the time. It might still make sense when you play in a coordinated division but that's about it.

 

As for other team-oriented tactics - Radar is sometimes used on targets you can't shoot yourself but it's rare because you can't really count on allies focusing the spotted target down properly (not to mention that there's a time penalty so you have the biggest chance to actually deal decent damage to a stationary caught-with-pants-down target while allies can only really shoot after the target gets a chance to accelerate). Dropping fighters (as a CV) on allies happens, but you first need to get there and that means that you try to give some fighter escort that won't even move with them, and to do that, you need to first get to them, so you do that INSTEAD of dealing damage... unless they're on the way or very close to the fight - and that last situation means that fighters are useless because they drop pretty much instantly within any ship's AA bubble, so the fighters are going to be dead before they do anything.

 

Overall, there are very few ways to provide worthwhile support and the allies tend to not be worth the effort anyway - and that is the more relevant the better the potential supporter is. So the best players (the most likely to think about supporting others) are also the most acutely aware that it's probably a waste of time and they'll help the team more by saving all the tools for their personal use rather than squander them on the off chance that they might help a bit some random potato that's in trouble.

 

The only real support you can kind-of count on is if you point out some problematic-but-vulnerable target (someone overextending to ruin your day) - calling fire on them can sometimes prove effective. Sometimes.

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[UA-NF]
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Vor 2 Stunden, Honey_Badger621 sagte:

For example: look at destroyer's who have smoke generators, (in my experience at least) I only ever see them popping a smoke for themselves when they're capturing a point, despite having cruisers and battleships behind them taking tons of damage, while the DD just sits around taking pot shots. A little nitpicky? Sure, but it's also what I've seen a lot when playing lately

he's just a noob. Any decent player knows that sitting in smoke in DD is much more dangerous, cause you don't see gunboats rushing you or radar ships approaching. Not to mention that smoke is torpedo bait. But you shouldn't rely on DD smokes in a first place.

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[SSDZA]
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Every player for himself. No more team play in battles.

I have also noticed that it's worst during weekends. I have wasted a lot of smoke on cruisers players that just didn't use it. It's always Des Moines players that are grateful and appreciative of it. So I choose carefully to whom I give my smoke. 

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[LUZ1]
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3 minutes ago, Perekotypole said:

he's just a noob. Any decent player knows that sitting in smoke in DD is much more dangerous, cause you don't see gunboats rushing you or radar ships approaching. Not to mention that smoke is torpedo bait. But you shouldn't rely on DD smokes in a first place.

Just to go dark and then out of the smoke asap

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3 hours ago, Honey_Badger621 said:

Does anyone else feel like sometimes people lack...Initiative when playing games?

 

What I mean is: Players who only look out for themselves rather than anyone else until you start spamming them to do something.

 

For example: look at destroyer's who have smoke generators, (in my experience at least) I only ever see them popping a smoke for themselves when they're capturing a point, despite having cruisers and battleships behind them taking tons of damage, while the DD just sits around taking pot shots. A little nitpicky? Sure, but it's also what I've seen a lot when playing lately

 

I'm not gonna go preaching and say I'm gods holy gift and never done this (I mean hell my stats are laughably bad, even I know it), I've done the above to save my own rear-side many times, I'm pretty confident in saying we all have, but I mean more at the start of the game where the destroyer isn't spotted but the singular battleship or cruiser behind them has and there's 5 ships ready to citadel the living hell out of them, or if an aircraft carrier only cares about stealing kills instead of putting a fighter down where there's a destroyer/cruiser/battleship being harassed to hell and back.

Well Randoms in this game are 1 vs 23...

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did get smoked in my GK yesterday in a ranked match 

was even in secondary range so was able to fire from it

sadly it takes a loooooooong time to stop the damn ship so wasnt able to use the smoke for long until the torps arrived 

lucky by then i was already moving again, this time backwards in the attempt to get back into the smoke 

 

but yea, teamplay isnt rewarded 

if you help your team they can live longer, which means they can do more damage, so they get the star preserved 

not something people wish for their teammates in higher ranks 

 

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The problem with helping teammates is:

 

In 70% of the cases you will regret it, because your teammate behave stupid and do not use your help well (and die) or because you get yourself in danger (and get no help from that teammate).

In 10% of the cases it is not usefull to help teammates, because the teammates will die anyway or because there would be still enemies with LoS to your teammate, so you would just waste your smoke.

 

In 20% of the cases you're able to coordinate the help, so your teammate will really benefit from your help and in return you get help too. But the problem with this cases is: This teammates are your clanmates and your divisionmembers and you're can speak to them via Teamspeak or Discord and that are just 2 out of 11 teammates. This do not apply to random-mates.

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3 hours ago, Honey_Badger621 said:

Does anyone else feel like sometimes people lack...Initiative when playing games?

 

What I mean is: Players who only look out for themselves rather than anyone else until you start spamming them to do something.

 

For example: look at destroyer's who have smoke generators, (in my experience at least) I only ever see them popping a smoke for themselves when they're capturing a point, despite having cruisers and battleships behind them taking tons of damage, while the DD just sits around taking pot shots. A little nitpicky? Sure, but it's also what I've seen a lot when playing lately

 

I'm not gonna go preaching and say I'm gods holy gift and never done this (I mean hell my stats are laughably bad, even I know it), I've done the above to save my own rear-side many times, I'm pretty confident in saying we all have, but I mean more at the start of the game where the destroyer isn't spotted but the singular battleship or cruiser behind them has and there's 5 ships ready to citadel the living hell out of them, or if an aircraft carrier only cares about stealing kills instead of putting a fighter down where there's a destroyer/cruiser/battleship being harassed to hell and back.

I’ll always pop smoke for the bigger guns and keep spotting for the, after all, that’s what DD’s should do.👍

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5 hours ago, Honey_Badger621 said:

For example: look at destroyer's who have smoke generators, (in my experience at least) I only ever see them popping a smoke for themselves when they're capturing a point, despite having cruisers and battleships behind them taking tons of damage,

When a DD smokes up his allies one or more than the following things happens:

  • allied ships pushs the smoking DD out of it's own smoke...
  • allied ships just sail right through the smoke
  • damaged allies don't use the smoke to retreat/repair while not using their main guns, instead shoot happily along if they are get visible in smoke because of it
  • and about all other stupid sh*t you can just imagine...

So no, I don't smoke up allies, except for other DDs who not how to use smoke.

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10 hours ago, Honey_Badger621 said:

For example: look at destroyer's who have smoke generators, (in my experience at least) I only ever see them popping a smoke for themselves when they're capturing a point, despite having cruisers and battleships behind them taking tons of damage, while the DD just sits around taking pot shots. A little nitpicky? Sure, but it's also what I've seen a lot when playing lately

On the occasion I see any actual support from a cruiser or battleship I might consider it. Plus most BBs are too stupid to stop firing so there is no point to smoking them. 

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[JRM]
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16 hours ago, Honey_Badger621 said:

For example: look at destroyer's who have smoke generators, (in my experience at least) I only ever see them popping a smoke for themselves when they're capturing a point, despite having cruisers and battleships behind them taking tons of damage, while the DD just sits around taking pot shots. A little nitpicky? Sure, but it's also what I've seen a lot when playing lately

Well a DD that pops a smoke in the cap and then sits in it is equivalent to the yoloing Bismarck and about as useful for the team in the long run, only reason to pop smoke in cap IMHO are planes or need to disengage and run like hell...

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[BYOB]
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Why is anyone expecting teamplay from players who never were informed about the synergy of classes and mechanics, but instead were fast forwarded to high tiers.

Why should anyone play for the team if this is not rewarded? Spotting? No reward. Tanking damage? No reward. Using consumables for the team mates benefit? No reward. Doing damage? All rewards.

 

By design WG is incentivizing selfish game play. They know exactly what they are doing and are succeeding in making this game a 1 vs. 23 experience.

 

PS: A DD captain with a triple solo cap and 100k spotting damage but 0 direct damage will see a "no battle contribution" message at the battle summary screen. This is the summary of how away we are from having a team based game.

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