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Murqy

A buff for a balanced meta

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Before I started playing this game I was spending a lot of time with Rainbow Six Siege. Not that I know how the meta is in that game this very day, but three years ago I was amazed how the developers really took time to balance the old operators after new ones were relised. The new ones were always strong and changed the meta, which put the old ones in the same state as many of the ships in Wows today (they became obsolete). This was compensated in different ways, and some operators had their main gadget reworked. Some guns (that no one were using) got buffed. Some operators had their flashbangs exchanged for grenades to make them stronger. Anything to make the operator relevant again and not leaving anything to be definitely a "no pick ".

 

My point is that noone really got left behind (few exceptions that created some nice memes) and there was always the ambition to at least try to create balance. This resulted in were unique lineups of operators for ranked matches were it came down to ingenuity to create a unique setup. Everything could be a good pick, if you knew how to implement it in a nice synergy with your teammates.

 

My experience with WG is that they are rather lazy and couldn't care less for old ships (that still has a lot to give and holds a lot of potential fun). These minor tweaks by simply buffing /nerfing gun reload time leaves a feeling of indifference. I still believe smaller changes can make a difference, but but they have to be smarter and not just based on spreadsheets.

 

In this thread I was hoping we as a community could help WG out, by putting some good ideas how out-dated ships could be freshened up to fit the current meta better.

 

For example, the German DD line struggles in the CV and 12 km radar meta. My suggestion would be to increase torpedo range.

* Z-52 new torpedo range 12,5 km (and lowered to 11,5 if to strong)

*Z-46 to 11,5 km

*Z-23 to 10,5 km and gunrange improved to 12 km (mirror the Z-39)

 

Their concept remains, but they would certainly bring more to the table now.

 

JN torpboat DDs could use a much faster turret traverse. Guns are still good and this minor change would offer a good way to kite and shoot. Dpm is still low, but they would be able to bite back better against pure gunboat DDs.

 

Zao, a very nice ship (that has lost its purpose in todays meta) could have a new unique role as a surprise predator by having the concealment lowered 1 km. Engament would be more focused on lining up torps and have AP ready for punishing cruisers. If detected it still works okey as a long range kiter and fire starter.

 

 

French DDs should have their concealment nerf undone and instead reduce the range of their guns to 10 km (no range mod) and go back to the role as ambush predator (and leave the role of long range fast gunboating for the Soviet DDs that now feels forgotten and pointless)

 

Soviet DDs Khabba, Tashkent and Kiev could all have 10 km torps, to offer a variation and different means of engaging when long range gunboating no longer is possible in the same way as before with the Italian and new Soviet cruises in the game.

 

I could keep going, but im interested in hearing ides from you guys now 😊

 

PS, there should be a limit in CB and ranked with only one ship of each type. Could follow the same model as R6 Siege when you pick operators. This would encourage locking up more ships and would increase the importance of a better balancing.

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A lot of the ships ARE balanced right, but just don't play like players want them to play. You can see that in CC's branding ships "trash" because it doesn't fit their preferred play style, or how they think that class/ships should play.

 

When judging a ship you should go over all it's variables. In case of DD if their torpedo range is low it probably a compensation for something else like speed, gun penetration or range, concealmenet, greater HP, stronger AA and such.

 

German DD guns have a lot of penetration as have all German guns......32 mm on the 128 mm guns and 38 mm on the150 mm guns.......they can punch through many Cruiser and even many tier BB decks/bows/stern/casemates with ease without IFHE ( and their fire chance is lowered because of it too )......this *could* have something to do with their torpedo range lowered as WG balances things out.

 

Same goes for the other ships.....look at hem as WG does and go over all their attributes. French DD for example can murder both DD and Cruisers with their guns while they drive by at rediculous speeds and have gotten damage migation no other ship has to help deal with return fire. That however requires tactics changed from normal DD operation that should not use guns that much. But that is what that sub class does....playing them as normal DD one does not understand their setup and they will never function like you want them to.

 

I don't have Zao myself yet but i'm sure something can be found that explains why it is like it currently is.

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There is a big powercreep yes and I agree about buffing certain lines, however I disagree about some of the lines you've mentioned.

 

  • While the german DD line could use a 0.5-1km torpedo range buff, it is also still one of the best destroyer lines in the current meta with their strong guns and hydro.
  • IJN torpedo boats are mostly fine I think. Maybe a buff in the turret traverse on low tiers.
  • Zao didn't lose its purpose, its purpose just shifted a bit. It's still an amazing ship.

 

The soviet "gunboat" line could use a torpedo range buff though. Also khaba needs to lose the full BB pen at the very least. You've left out the three most powercrept lines out of your post for some reason:

  • US DDs need a shell velocity buff. They used to be DD hunters. Now they're torpedo boats with fast turret traverse. How do you counter a US DD in another DD? Move at least 8km away from it.
  • Same with pan asian DDs. They're just US DDs but with even worse torpedoes as they cannot torp other destroyers.
  • British DDs.....the torpedo range....oh the torpedo range.
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2 minutes ago, domen3 said:

British DDs.....the torpedo range....oh the torpedo range

-British DD

-powercrept

 

If anything, Brit destroyers invalidate most other destroyer lines with their outstanding flexibility and handling.

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11 minutes ago, Panocek said:

-British DD

-powercrept

 

If anything, Brit destroyers invalidate most other destroyer lines with their outstanding flexibility and handling.

I've never seen one as a threat. Their torps use coal as fuel.

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Just now, domen3 said:

I've never seen one as a threat. Their torps use coal as fuel.

Brit torp detection is set to be in line with other torpedoes, that is giving 8s reaction time, only exception being deepwater (+-5s), IJN and French (+-10s) torps. And then single launch feature is THE trait you want to have when it comes to torpedoes, as you can create your own patterns, launch uneven amount of torps towards multiple targets, effectively torpedo bowtanking ships and play "did I launch three torpedoes or four" game.

 

And thats besides fact WG has been plucking islands left right and center, which acts as convenient torp blockers. Throw in everyone and their mom running Hydro consumable because DFAA is nigh useless, carriers that will be more than happy to pounce on "overextending" DD that tries to make use of torpedoes and you have less than enviable situation for "torpedo oriented" ships. Meanwhile Britbong DD will happily sprinkle targets of opportunity with guns, while enemy CV will have significant REEE event due to constant smoke spam.

 

To top it off, Jutland and Daring have heals:cap_tea:

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32 minutes ago, domen3 said:

There is a big powercreep yes and I agree about buffing certain lines, however I disagree about some of the lines you've mentioned.

  • Zao didn't lose its purpose, its purpose just shifted a bit. It's still an amazing ship.

Zao did receive a torp ( option) buff but I think that it can have a small HP buff looking at its size and the HP of smaller and similar ships at its tier. Not that 4K (?) hp extra would matter that much but it would be fair.

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6 horas antes, Murqy dijo:

JN torpboat DDs could use a much faster turret traverse. Guns are still good and this minor change would offer a good way to kite and shoot. Dpm is still low, but they would be able to bite back better against pure gunboat DDs.

Yes. Its a nonsense slow reload + slow traverse turrets

3 minutos antes, Migantium_Mashum dijo:

I want TRB on my Shimakaze... that's my only wish.

Ohhhh yes! torps party

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WG is not interested in buffing old lines, the newest and the best is the way to go for cash from XP converting and it will force people to play and grind to be competetive. Then usually after one, max two seasons of CB or ranked hard nerfs are coming and a new best line (often hard counter to previues king) is coming. Business as usual. 

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How about adding 15% torp range improvement at 6th slot for t9/10 DDs?

It could help some destroyers, especially Kleber, Grozo and Z-52.

Not to mention Shima with type F3 torps and more range.

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1 hour ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

I want TRB on my Shimakaze... that's my only wish.

That would make the Kitakami redundant even before it's re-introduction :Smile_teethhappy: would make more sense than a Kuma hull at t10 though...

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Graf Zeppelin release showed that normal players have no idea how to balance a ship. This thread shows a lot of wishes for huge buffs to some ship lines. I disagree with most of them. E.g. Daring is being nerfed slightly every patch for some time now and for a very good reason.

 

The only thing I would like to see changed is 457 mm guns. They lessen the value of angling and with the popularity of such BBs it's as if you played against 5 Yamatos all the time but some of them have 21 - 23 s reload.

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2 hours ago, domen3 said:
  • Zao didn't lose its purpose, its purpose just shifted a bit. It's still an amazing ship.

I struggle to see the "amazing" part in Zao in late 2020. It was an amazing ship back in the day. Then came like half a dozen BBs that don't give a damn about the armour and straight up delete the crappy hp pool of the ship and a good few cruisers that give it a hard time. Venezia and Goliath straight up encroach on its territory, while being not very easy to fight in a Zao, new Russian cruisers are a pain to deal with, as the Petro shatters the HE and can't be citadelled, while Nevsky has no issues applying superior dpm at any range. CVs also have an easy time dealing with a ship that has a pretty low hp pool for a T10 cruiser. Given the ship can no longer comfortably expect to tank some BB shells and CV spotting can be faster and more oppressive, getting close to launch torps also is way riskier now than it was before. And one can tell by looking at how prevalent Zao is in competitive modes, CV or not. Zao to me is a ship that was left behind in 2018.

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5 minutes ago, HaachamaShipping said:

I struggle to see the "amazing" part in Zao in late 2020. It was an amazing ship back in the day. Then came like half a dozen BBs that don't give a damn about the armour and straight up delete the crappy hp pool of the ship and a good few cruisers that give it a hard time. Venezia and Goliath straight up encroach on its territory, while being not very easy to fight in a Zao, new Russian cruisers are a pain to deal with, as the Petro shatters the HE and can't be citadelled, while Nevsky has no issues applying superior dpm at any range. CVs also have an easy time dealing with a ship that has a pretty low hp pool for a T10 cruiser. Given the ship can no longer comfortably expect to tank some BB shells and CV spotting can be faster and more oppressive, getting close to launch torps also is way riskier now than it was before. And one can tell by looking at how prevalent Zao is in competitive modes, CV or not. Zao to me is a ship that was left behind in 2018.

Imo goliath sucks. It's not even a competition against zao. It's still one of the best long range fire starters. + it has amazing HE alpha.

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18 minutes ago, HaachamaShipping said:

I struggle to see the "amazing" part in Zao in late 2020. It was an amazing ship back in the day. Then came like half a dozen BBs that don't give a damn about the armour and straight up delete the crappy hp pool of the ship and a good few cruisers that give it a hard time. Venezia and Goliath straight up encroach on its territory, while being not very easy to fight in a Zao, new Russian cruisers are a pain to deal with, as the Petro shatters the HE and can't be citadelled, while Nevsky has no issues applying superior dpm at any range. CVs also have an easy time dealing with a ship that has a pretty low hp pool for a T10 cruiser. Given the ship can no longer comfortably expect to tank some BB shells and CV spotting can be faster and more oppressive, getting close to launch torps also is way riskier now than it was before. And one can tell by looking at how prevalent Zao is in competitive modes, CV or not. Zao to me is a ship that was left behind in 2018.

Not true. Zao is so OP that WG had to nerf her legendary upgrade because Zao was destroying the game for all other ships. :Smile_trollface:

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5 minutes ago, domen3 said:

Imo goliath sucks. It's not even a competition against zao. It's still one of the best long range fire starters. + it has amazing HE alpha.

The server stats imply otherwise and frankly, I can totally see why, having played both. People complain about Goliath potentially eating citadels from 457 mm AP going through one weird spot, but realistically, you just sit at mid range, your 40 mm deck doing work and your 200+ mm of belt. When you do eat damage, the ship has 58k hp and a superheal. Zao gets overmatched everywhere and has a poor hp pool. The Goliath for pure alpha obviously beats the Zao and while it hasn't got the dpm, Goliath still wins more trades just because of its durability, while the 59 mm of HE pen mean that you'll usually reliably pen your targets. In fact, Zao isn't even competition for Goliath.

 

Zao in the past was great when it wasn't pit against great fire spammers and against Hindenburg or Henri it culd leverage its superior dpm and stealth. But Goliath can beat those too and Hindenburg got buffed again to a point where it gives Zao a hard time.

3 minutes ago, DariusJacek said:

Not true. Zao is so OP that WG had to nerf her legendary upgrade because Zao was destroying the game for all other ships. :Smile_trollface:

Issue wasn't that Zao was OP, but that the LU was just a way better deal than the regular options. LU isn't supposed to rebalance ships. Zao needs a buff to its base stats, easiest buff being the hp pool.

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3 minutes ago, HaachamaShipping said:

The server stats imply otherwise and frankly, I can totally see why, having played both. People complain about Goliath potentially eating citadels from 457 mm AP going through one weird spot, but realistically, you just sit at mid range, your 40 mm deck doing work and your 200+ mm of belt. When you do eat damage, the ship has 58k hp and a superheal. Zao gets overmatched everywhere and has a poor hp pool. The Goliath for pure alpha obviously beats the Zao and while it hasn't got the dpm, Goliath still wins more trades just because of its durability, while the 59 mm of HE pen mean that you'll usually reliably pen your targets. In fact, Zao isn't even competition for Goliath.

 

Zao in the past was great when it wasn't pit against great fire spammers and against Hindenburg or Henri it culd leverage its superior dpm and stealth. But Goliath can beat those too and Hindenburg got buffed again to a point where it gives Zao a hard time.

Issue wasn't that Zao was OP, but that the LU was just a way better deal than the regular options. LU isn't supposed to rebalance ships. Zao needs a buff to its base stats, easiest buff being the hp pool.

Maybe hp, maybe rudder shift from old UU, maybe both. 

Definitely needs something as now I demounted UU as it can be replaced with a set of standard mods. 

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52 minutes ago, Ze_Reckless said:

The only thing I would like to see changed is 457 mm guns. They lessen the value of angling and with the popularity of such BBs it's as if you played against 5 Yamatos all the time but some of them have 21 - 23 s reload. 

 

That has indeed changed the game way too much.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Panocek said:

-British DD

-powercrept

 

If anything, Brit destroyers invalidate most other destroyer lines with their outstanding flexibility and handling.

Yeah I play Daring myself, and giving her better torps would go a lot towards making her broken.
While short-ranged, these torps are rather good when seen in view of everything else that she offers (especially gun performance, hydro, "get out of jail free"-smoke and general wiggliness).
I would love some extra (500m?) base gun range on her though, in order to pressure Stalingrads and Petros some more especially, that right now seem to infest ranked play like an out of control cancer.

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58 minutes ago, HaachamaShipping said:

The server stats imply otherwise and frankly, I can totally see why, having played both. People complain about Goliath potentially eating citadels from 457 mm AP going through one weird spot, but realistically, you just sit at mid range, your 40 mm deck doing work and your 200+ mm of belt. When you do eat damage, the ship has 58k hp and a superheal. Zao gets overmatched everywhere and has a poor hp pool. The Goliath for pure alpha obviously beats the Zao and while it hasn't got the dpm, Goliath still wins more trades just because of its durability, while the 59 mm of HE pen mean that you'll usually reliably pen your targets. In fact, Zao isn't even competition for Goliath.

 

Zao in the past was great when it wasn't pit against great fire spammers and against Hindenburg or Henri it culd leverage its superior dpm and stealth. But Goliath can beat those too and Hindenburg got buffed again to a point where it gives Zao a hard time.

I have never, not once fought a goliath that was even remotely a threat to me in my zao, so yes, I stand by what I said about goliath not being a threat to one. That being said, if you want zao to be buffed, I'm all up for it. Buff my favorite cruiser pls.

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3 minutes ago, domen3 said:

I have never, not once fought a goliath that was even remotely a threat to me in my zao, so yes, I stand by what I said about goliath not being a threat to zao. That being said, if you want zao to be buffed, I'm all up for it. Buff my favorite cruiser pls.

Goliath vs Zao is typically not a common fight, because Zao isn't played that often actually, Goliath is among the rarest T10 cruisers in the game because of the bad rep the line got and when they are on opposing sides in a match, they both don't follow a playstyle that leads to many straight up classes that leave one side dead. The main issue is, if I had to pick Goliath or Zao for the role of HE spamming arsonist with limited utility, I'd pick Goliath any day. It just is more capable of playing around an objective and directly contest other cruisers or BBs. The advantage of Zao here'd be the range, but frankly, Zao needs it, as it cannot play at mid range anywhere as effectively as Goliath can. (And if I just wanted to spam shells at 18+ km, I'd use the Yoshino)

 

Meanwhile in a Goliath vs Zao 1v1, Zao only really has a spotting advantage, but at the 11 km where Zao can spot Goliath, the ballistics advantage of Zao matters way less and if it comes to trading blows over prolonged periods, Goliath will win, while in a brawl, Goliath also will win, just how often is a Zao and a Goliath going to be pitted against each other though?

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9 hours ago, Murqy said:

JN torpboat DDs could use a much faster turret traverse

Why? They were originally planned as torpedo boats, that aspect was nerfed for no reason, now they buf the guns little by little to balance it out. How dumb is that?

9 hours ago, Murqy said:

Soviet DDs Khabba

Purpose of the split. How ever Khaba was overnerfed, but there was only Shima and Gearing at the time, now we have dds that do things better than Khaba ever did and its fine, so she needs some things returned to her.

9 hours ago, Murqy said:

Zao, a very nice ship (that has lost its purpose in todays meta)

She was nerfed hard aswell, DM on the other hand was buffed when they were the only TX cruisers. She still burns everything pretty good, but a reload and a HP return might be nice.

 

 

2 hours ago, DariusJacek said:

WG is not interested in buffing old lines

This. Out with the old in with the new. Most likely they will keep nerfing old stuf in hopes people will spend cash to speed up grinding newer ones, marketing, nothing personal. But then again what purpose of having so many lines then if anything new is better than the old and vice versa...?

 

1 hour ago, Ze_Reckless said:

The only thing I would like to see changed is 457 mm guns. They lessen the value of angling and with the popularity of such BBs it's as if you played against 5 Yamatos all the time but some of them have 21 - 23 s reload.

Not the only issue here, its part of the whole self suficient monopoly, the introduction of self suficient ships in general killed the team play itself, starting with Michail Kutuzov. They started to pump hydros and radars on anything afloat, adding smoke to the mix, such ship is pretty much a unit that can do most things solo without relying on others, then cam the high caliber BB to put another nail in the coffin.

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1 hour ago, HaachamaShipping said:

I struggle to see the "amazing" part in Zao in late 2020. It was an amazing ship back in the day. Then came like half a dozen BBs that don't give a damn about the armour and straight up delete the crappy hp pool of the ship and a good few cruisers that give it a hard time. Venezia and Goliath straight up encroach on its territory, while being not very easy to fight in a Zao, new Russian cruisers are a pain to deal with, as the Petro shatters the HE and can't be citadelled, while Nevsky has no issues applying superior dpm at any range. CVs also have an easy time dealing with a ship that has a pretty low hp pool for a T10 cruiser. Given the ship can no longer comfortably expect to tank some BB shells and CV spotting can be faster and more oppressive, getting close to launch torps also is way riskier now than it was before. And one can tell by looking at how prevalent Zao is in competitive modes, CV or not. Zao to me is a ship that was left behind in 2018.

 

She came back for me this morning. She's absolutely fine.

 

shot-20_09.24_11_09.51-0877.thumb.jpg.d702733aa715641958ca964838b3f137.jpg

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1 minute ago, Taliesn said:

 

She came back for me this morning. She's absolutely fine.

 

One battle, no context. Ship rehabilitated. 

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