Everybody loses! (Draws)

[Staarfury]

Let's talk about the end of the game. Those painful final minutes where you're just driving along the empty seas in a futile chase for a timely entrance to the cap circle. I get it that you need to set a time limit to the game, otherwise you'd end up with one fast ship just running from the bigger ship forever and 20 people having their ships locked for 3 hours.

 

However, I think there is a better way to wrap up a match that people just invested the last 20 minutes of their lives into than to take a huge stinking dump on it and declare everyone a loser.

 

How about once the timer runs out, the team with more remaining hitpoints (or as you guys decided to call it combat capability) is declared the winner?

 

Now I realize that this would get rid of those wins with a lucky citadel hit (or let's be honest, HE spam caused fire) killing the last enemy 2 seconds before the end of the countdown. But I'm really not sure that's worth the 20 other matches that are essentially over 4 minutes before the end because you'll never reach the remaining enemy carrier parked in the corner of the map or get to the cap circle. I really don't think the current adaption of the traditional WoT game mode translates well to WoWs with it's far far slower vehicles (in relation to the map sizes)

 

I don't think I've ever had a single draw that wasn't an exciting game, ruined by a complete anticlimax of an ending. In fact, I can remember at least 4 times in the last couple of weeks where that draw put an end to my game session.

[Mitchverr]

More hitpoints runs into a couple issues though, for example the bad MM system when it often pits a team with mostly DDs vs teams with a ton of BBs in it. They are significantly lower "hp" from the get-go. Teams avg HP % would work better here i would guess.

[P_W_Tordenskiold]

I have personally yet to have a draw that would not be resolved with just one more minute on the clock.

There was a great suggestion by a user a week or so ago, about implementing a sudden-death type of element after the time runs out. Basically if no shot lands within 20 seconds of each other after the clock runs out and no base is currently being captured, the game ends in a draw.

[J_Fuller]

But have you ever used a CV yourself and when the team is lossing, charged the enemy team?

If so cool, but most wont sacrifice their ship just so that the enemy team can win... This post has only looked at it from the team that were about to win (and then "lost" by getting a draw)...

 

I like the idear of a "sudden-death" type of element however! 

[Staarfury]

But have you ever used a CV yourself and when the team is lossing, charged the enemy team?

If so cool, but most wont sacrifice their ship just so that the enemy team can win...

 

No, because when my carrier is in a lost match, I'm never the last to die. That's usually the friendly battleship sniping from 5km behind me.

 

 This post has only looked at it from the team that were about to win (and then "lost" by getting a draw)...

 

What's there to look at from the losing team's perspective? There's no reward in fighting for a draw for them either.

 

You might want to argue for a 2/3 - 1/3 winner's bonus distribution for a "time" win, but then that would encourage running away and artificially prolonging decided matches. Just remember that this game is played on maps tens of kilometers across with ships who's top speed differs by a few knots at most.

[J_Fuller]

 

What's there to look at from the losing team's perspective? There's no reward in fighting for a draw for them either.

 

You might want to argue for a 2/3 - 1/3 winner's bonus distribution for a "time" win, but then that would encourage running away and artificially prolonging decided matches. Just remember that this game is played on maps tens of kilometers across with ships who's top speed differs by a few knots at most.

Nothing for the team, but the enemy player that is still alive has a repairbill that he/she might not want to pay... So in effect a rather big sum of credits for not losing the game and stay alive!

Also come to think of it... Your team (yourself included) did not try to cap, or where to slow to look at the map and see what was going to happen, and decidede it was better to "no cap, kill all"... There where a fine chance of a win, in most if not all games that ends in a draw, the team simply did not presue that option. (taken from personal experince)

 

To your point of running of, yes that is a fair argument, but again why should the enemy "kill himself" just so that you could get some ekstra xp and credits?

And pay the game for his truble via his repairbill?

 

If the game has a chance of ending in a draw, a fair few matches will end in a draw, this will increase or subtract depending on the map awerness of the teams...  

[Staarfury]

Also come to think of it... Your team (yourself included) did not try to cap, or where to slow to look at the map and see what was going to happen, and decidede it was better to "no cap, kill all"... There where a fine chance of a win, in most if not all games that ends in a draw, the team simply did not presue that option. (taken from personal experince)

 

Read my OP again. Do you honestly believe punishing everyone for just playing your game for 20 minutes by saying "Time's up, everyone is a loser" is a good thing?

 

Last draw I got, we pulled back a 4-7 deficit to a 3-3 5 minutes before the end of the match. Since they still had an unspotted carrier at the other end of the map, we had already "lost" the battle. 5 minutes isn't enough time to get from your base to the enemy base and cap even ignoring the fact that we still had 2 enemies nearby.

 

The battle was glorious and a complete and utter waste of time since any chance of us winning the battle was gone 10 minutes into the match when we were down three ships. The only thing we achieved was ruining the other team's result as well. Yay!!! It would've been an awesome memory but that's been completely ruined by the fact that there was never any point to all we achieved.

 

But apparently, it's all supposed to be a learning experience. Don't play a game where comeback's are made impossible. Or did you mean the people who died 5 minutes into the battle and left us to waste our time were the ones who are supposed to be taught a lesson by reading the 3 second popup showing that the battle they quit 15 minutes ago ended in a draw?

[J_Fuller]

 

Read my OP again. Do you honestly believe punishing everyone for just playing your game for 20 minutes by saying "Time's up, everyone is a loser" is a good thing?

No, but the game are designed so that if you have a bad result and want to get a new chance, you have an idear of when then game ends, and you can giv it another go... There is a timelimit, it might not be perfect, but as long as you have a timelimit and you should play accordenly, but draws will happen. 

 

Last draw I got, we pulled back a 4-7 deficit to a 3-3 5 minutes before the end of the match. Since they still had an unspotted carrier at the other end of the map, we had already "lost" the battle. 5 minutes isn't enough time to get from your base to the enemy base and cap even ignoring the fact that we still had 2 enemies nearby.

Good for you, you had a good game, but failed in the main objektiv, and thous only gets the secondary rewards... My point is, you made dmg, perhaps got some kills, in this game most of us have had 1200+ xp on a defeat, you got your reward, you just did not get the bonus (because you did not win) that is all.

 

The battle was glorious and a complete and utter waste of time since any chance of us winning the battle was gone 10 minutes into the match when we were down three ships. The only thing we achieved was ruining the other team's result as well. Yay!!! It would've been an awesome memory but that's been completely ruined by the fact that there was never any point to all we achieved.

Sounds like you had a great time, and now are determind to be mad about it.

 

But apparently, it's all supposed to be a learning experience. Don't play a game where comeback's are made impossible. Or did you mean the people who died 5 minutes into the battle and left us to waste our time were the ones who are supposed to be taught a lesson by reading the 3 second popup showing that the battle they quit 15 minutes ago ended in a draw?

No it is a game, where you can use warships! You lost the game because you took a long way around, or got into a situation, or your team got into a situation where you could not manage to get into the enemy cap or kill all the enemys... It can only be a learning experiance if you look at what you did or did not do. If you wont do that, fine you have a game where you did a lot of dmg, put your trust in your team (and they failed) or were initially outplayed by the enemy team and then fought back... And that will stay that way.

Or you try to learn, and setup you gameplay so that you have a better chance of winning.

 

This game is not a "you loss so you have a bad game" type, but if one decides that you can only have a good game if you win, then it is less rewarding

 

[Staarfury]

Ehm no, I didn't have a great time. I had 10 minutes of seeing half the team crumble, 5 minutes of a desperate fight not to lose and then 5 minutes of going through the motions in a pointless battle versus the two remaining ships in range. Actually, the last 5 minutes consisted of 2 minutes killing the remaining 2 enemies and 3 minutes watching the timer run out.

 

Sorry, but 5 minutes of exciting gameplay which are immediatley followed by 5 minutes of the game just shitting over your accomplishments and forcing you to contemplate how pointless the battle was don't give me a warm fuzzy feeling, no matter how much you're trying to make it sound like an attitude problem. Even looking at the numbers, I would've been better off dying at the 10 minute mark, and joining the next battle. There's far more credits and XP to be had.

 

When a game makes you feel like you just wasted your time in a Beta where all progress is going to be wiped anyway, there's something wrong.

[NGC227]

Fix the MM, change the rules of CAP !! 

 

[J_Fuller]

no matter how much you're trying to make it sound like an attitude problem. Even looking at the numbers, I would've been better off dying at the 10 minute mark, and joining the next battle. There's far more credits and XP to be had.

I am not trying to make it sound like an attitude problem, I am talking about gamedesign and the gamers not playing to their strengs, despite all the info the game provides...

Also if you did not get that much xp/credits then you didn't do very well, that is not the fault of the game...

 

When a game makes you feel like you just wasted your time in a Beta where all progress is going to be wiped anyway, there's something wrong.

​What you have been saying is that the result not the experince of the game should be the decider... Well it sounds like you play for a goal... This is testing, as you say they will wipe the progress, so you help them collect data of the game, if you have a problem or surgestion then you bring it to them (if you want to), and in return you get a chance to play the game and learn how it works before the general public has a chance (although we are in a strange midpoint where all can buy access but that is that)...

Again if you want to, you can learn and get better results.

 

Now you have come up with the idear that HP should be the decider, and as others have said, the problem here is that ships have different HP polls.

The result would be that only the big HP heavy ships would be used, that would be bad game design! What then if you said that the number of ships would decide who won, well in that case, as sone as a ship were killed, then on team of ships pulled back (so they would win, and save the repair bill) again not that good a gamedesign...

There is a draw mekanic so that the teams have an exact time to win the game, if one then just sits for 10 minuts and does nothing (or what in effect is nothing)... Who is that the games fault?

 

I can understand that you don't want draws in the game, I am with you on that, but how will you make the game so, without ruin the planed diversity of ships and classes/tiers?

 

 

[J_Fuller]

Fix the MM, change the rules of CAP !! 

 

to what?

[MaxxyNL]

Fix the MM, change the rules of CAP !! 

 

Again, this is still a CBT, everything is/can be subjected to changes.

 

Don't like something? Report it to Wargaming Support. 

[Staarfury]

@J_Fuller

 

You realize that putting your replies in the my quotes makes it a pain to reply to you?

 

To be honest, to me it looked like you did like draws and kept telling me to suck it up and win the battle by myself. It's definitely the first mention in three posts about how to do it, instead of whether I'm playing the game wrong if I'm annoyed with a match where everyone ends up losing.

 

As for the exact tie-breaking condition, there's tons of options:

 

Absolute HP remaining: 25000 HP for team A beats 22000 HP for team B)

Relative HP remaining: team A has 17000 out of 100000 starting HP -> 17%, team B has 18000 out of 110000 starting HP -> 16,3%

Individual ship strength: Each remaining ship counts as up to 1 point, depending on how many HP it's got left.

Total damage done by the team.

You can either count an AFK ship or exclude it from the calculations.

 

They all have different advantages or disadvantages as far as perceived fairness and transparency.

 

Basically, it's all better than continuing the 4 year Wargaming tradition of having the longest battles end up with everyone being stamped a loser. The fact that it happens about three times as often in this game, combined with the matches being even longer and the slow relative speed of units (leading to many battles ending with several minutes of nothingness) only further exacerbates the issue.

[Aldramelech]

I agree with the point of view that draws are bad, what can be done about it is complex and would take a deal of sorting out. WG would do well to consider a change like this for all it's games.

[Ascender]

About a third of the draws I had would have resulted in a conclusive victory and/or defeat if there had been another 4 minutes on the clock to the point that sometimes we had 1 enemy ship left which was under fire and another 10 seconds would have seen him dead. I think only increasing the timer from 15 to 20 minutes (between WoT and WoWS) doesn't quite stack up with the increased size of maps and sluggishness of the units involved. I think simply putting 25 minutes on the clock instead would already resolve a huge number of draws.

[Staarfury]

About a third of the draws I had would have resulted in a conclusive victory and/or defeat if there had been another 4 minutes on the clock to the point that sometimes we had 1 enemy ship left which was under fire and another 10 seconds would have seen him dead. I think only increasing the timer from 15 to 20 minutes (between WoT and WoWS) doesn't quite stack up with the increased size of maps and sluggishness of the units involved. I think simply putting 25 minutes on the clock instead would already resolve a huge number of draws.

 

While what you're saying is true, there's two problems with that.

1. You might end up having the same unsatisfying ending x minutes later (though at some point, it's pretty much impossible to have an exciting game and still run out of time)

2. There's also the question of how long you want to have ships locked in a match. If the people who die after 5 minutes can go eat dinner before they get their ship back, you might end up with them staying at the dinner table.

2.5 Same thing as 2 just with platoo..eh divisions. In WoT, if you die early, worst case you'll have to wait 10 minutes for the game to complete. In WoWs, it's already a quarter of an hour. With 25 minutes, you're looking at up to 20 minutes of downtime.

[NGC227]

 

Again, this is still a CBT, everything is/can be subjected to changes.

 

Don't like something? Report it to Wargaming Support. 

 

Omg Dude its feeback heeeeeere 

[MaxxyNL]

 

Omg Dude its feeback heeeeeere 

 

[P_W_Tordenskiold]

 

While what you're saying is true, there's two problems with that.

1. You might end up having the same unsatisfying ending x minutes later (though at some point, it's pretty much impossible to have an exciting game and still run out of time)

2. There's also the question of how long you want to have ships locked in a match. If the people who die after 5 minutes can go eat dinner before they get their ship back, you might end up with them staying at the dinner table.

2.5 Same thing as 2 just with platoo..eh divisions. In WoT, if you die early, worst case you'll have to wait 10 minutes for the game to complete. In WoWs, it's already a quarter of an hour. With 25 minutes, you're looking at up to 20 minutes of downtime.

1. It might change how the battle as a whole flows, and it might not.

2. You mean it will promote people playing a variety of ships, how is that a negative? Added bonus is that it forces these people to think one extra time before acting suicidal, possibly promoting more team play as a result. 

3. Same as above.

 

Still personally in favor of sudden death, but more than willing to accept 5 extra minutes to see how it plays out.

[Staarfury]

1. It might change how the battle as a whole flows, and it might not.

2. You mean it will promote people playing a variety of ships, how is that a negative? Added bonus is that it forces these people to think one extra time before acting suicidal, possibly promoting more team play as a result. 

3. Same as above.

 

Still personally in favor of sudden death, but more than willing to accept 5 extra minutes to see how it plays out.

 

While you personally might think it's a good learning experience / lesson for life, from a developer's perspective it's mostly a way to drive away customers, so it won't be done unless absolutely necessary.

[J_Fuller]

@J_Fuller

 

You realize that putting your replies in the my quotes makes it a pain to reply to you?

 

To be honest, to me it looked like you did like draws and kept telling me to suck it up and win the battle by myself. It's definitely the first mention in three posts about how to do it, instead of whether I'm playing the game wrong if I'm annoyed with a match where everyone ends up losing.

 

As for the exact tie-breaking condition, there's tons of options:

 

Absolute HP remaining: 25000 HP for team A beats 22000 HP for team B)

Relative HP remaining: team A has 17000 out of 100000 starting HP -> 17%, team B has 18000 out of 110000 starting HP -> 16,3%

Individual ship strength: Each remaining ship counts as up to 1 point, depending on how many HP it's got left.

Total damage done by the team.

You can either count an AFK ship or exclude it from the calculations.

 

They all have different advantages or disadvantages as far as perceived fairness and transparency.

 

Basically, it's all better than continuing the 4 year Wargaming tradition of having the longest battles end up with everyone being stamped a loser. The fact that it happens about three times as often in this game, combined with the matches being even longer and the slow relative speed of units (leading to many battles ending with several minutes of nothingness) only further exacerbates the issue.

 

sorry about that, I did not think in those terms...

 

Well to some degree I did say "suck it up" (not intentional but I will stand by it) and the reason is rather simpel... You wanted to know why one would benefit from making a draw, my respons was that one would not have the same cost in the repair bill (which is true), and then you went on about that you did not like that you wasted your time... Now that annoyed me a bit, because that to me just sounds lacy... As you said later on, you sat for something like 10 minutes, know why the play, unless you are in the slowest ship in the game, you have ampel time to get into a good position an do some dmg, and still be within distance of the enemy cap...

That is not easy, but it is what the gamers should try to do...

 

I do not like the draws, but I don't find them bad, they are not a lose-lose, more like a almost win... And again if one really tries you can get exellent results in a draw (would it be better with the bonus, of course, but the result is still not bad)... My chife point is that if one want the game to be good, one has to at least try to make it good!

 

This made me go so much of track that I finally had to come back...

 

I am sorry that I made it sound personal, and that we started to talk on a subjet that wasn't what you sat out for starters... But my points stand.

 

now (finally) to your point... I don't agree that it is a better solution

Absolute HP remaining: 25000 HP for team A beats 22000 HP for team B: as I said, this will end up meaning that BB's will be the only ship class played... The more HP one team has the better it stands to win... Bad design

 

Relative HP remaining: team A has 17000 out of 100000 starting HP -> 17%, team B has 18000 out of 110000 starting HP -> 16,3%: Better, but hard to see ingame, also what about ships that can get back HP's?

 

Individual ship strength: Each remaining ship counts as up to 1 point, depending on how many HP it's got left.: When is a ship damage enough that it wont count? It will quickly be a problem to get an overview of which ships counts... And again a problem with ships that gets back HP

 

Total damage done by the team: problem if there are unequal HP between the fleets... 

 

One solution could be that the XP and credits for Draws were the standart of income for dmg and kills done... So that if one won a battle, the bonus was appliede (as is the case now)... And that defeats gave a penalty to the team (but not to those that got medals)... That way draws might not feel like a total wast of time for one side

[Aldramelech]

Crazy idea, how about draws are treated as wins for everybody, everybody wins # just saying

[Sander93]

 I get it that you need to set a time limit to the game, otherwise you'd end up with one fast ship just running from the bigger ship forever and 20 people having their ships locked for 3 hours.

 

Actually, having capture points prevents one ship from endlessly running because the other one could simply cap.

 

The timer is some odd leftover from World of Tanks where the average game was only 6 minutes, so a 15 minute timer was quite a large margin. Only rare games would end in draws (2%).

Battles in WoWS probably last more like 10-12 minutes on average so it is weird that they only added 5 minutes to the timer, instead of doubling it. 20 minutes is often too short considering the extended ranges in WoWS. The amount of draws has more than tripled (7,2%) compared to WoT. 

[Staarfury]

I do not like the draws, but I don't find them bad, they are not a lose-lose, more like a almost win... And again if one really tries you can get exellent results in a draw (would it be better with the bonus, of course, but the result is still not bad)... My chife point is that if one want the game to be good, one has to at least try to make it good!

 

The problem is that a draw is a loss for both sides. In this game (as well as in WoT until they introduced courageous resistance) there's two results. A win (which nets you bonus xp and credits) and everything else (commonly called a loss).

 

My point still stands that it's a bad decision to have a battle, which the surviving players spent 20 minutes of their time on, end with everyone being declared a loser. The fact that the slow movement and large map sizes often mean that the last couple of minutes before the inevitable end are spent driving towards an unreachable goal only adds insult to injury.

 

Can't say I agree with your points about the tie-breaker criteria. Basically you're saying that either people will only drive BBs or DDs depending on which criteria would be chosen. That's ludicrous.

And it's also kind of a strange thing to say that it would lead to a problem when teams are unbalanced. If teams are unbalanced, we have bigger problems than what to do in case of a draw. A team which has more HP generally should also have disadvantages that would allow the other team to do more or take less damage, so you can assume things will even out. If not, it means the ships are unbalanced and the team with more HP will win anyway.

 

As an aside, the individual ship strenght criteria would mean that a full hp ship counts as 1 point and a ship with 10% health remaining would count as 0.1 points. Basically it would take HP differences between the ship classes out of the equation.

 

 

Actually, having capture points prevents one ship from endlessly running because the other one could simply cap.

 

I could imagine a match between a Nicholas and a New York lasting for a veery long time. Nicholas could keep resetting the cap, staying out of effective range of the New York for basically as long as he wants unless the New York lands a couple of lucky hits. Now that's not something that would happen a lot, but why even give some troll the option of doing it? Hence the need for some kind of time limit.