Passive play and HE spam

[ultimatedestroyer_sniper]

as i said in another thread, HE is currently way too powerful. sure it does less damage than ap but its much more consistant. a change i want to suggest is changing HE which would also very likely fix the passive matches we get all the time. one of the changes i can think of is fire saturation. i would love to hear more ideas on this and want to discuss this in a civil way.

thank you for participating in something that needs to happen

[DFens_666]

2 minutes ago, ultimatedestroyer_sniper said:

HE doesnt start a fire if it doesnt penetrate/damage a module

 

No, because this 100% favours BBs, since they can pen everything with their HE, while Cruiser struggle against certain BBs to begin with. Not only do they deal 0 damage when it shatters, you would also remove their only way of damaging the ship at certain areas, more since since saturation exists. And DDs are even worse off, since they cant even pen Cruisers properly.

 

9 minutes ago, ultimatedestroyer_sniper said:

i would love to hear more ideas on this and want to discuss this in a civil way.

 

BB HE needs to be fixed, especially RN BB HE. One Cruiser farming you with HE should never be a problem. But a Thunderer shooting HE from 20km, starting basicly a fire every salvo is what causes issues. Imagine if a Cruiser would easily start several fires every 23 secs.

[HaachamaShipping]

Let's nerf HE, because it is too reliable. Nevermind that small caliber HE shatters on most plating, overmatching AP isn't exactly unreliable either.

 

And SAP worked out so well.

[ColonelPete]

22 minutes ago, ultimatedestroyer_sniper said:

as i said in another thread, HE is currently way too powerful. sure it does less damage than ap but its much more consistant. a change i want to suggest is changing HE which would also very likely fix the passive matches we get all the time. one of the changes i can think of is making it so HE doesnt start a fire if it doesnt penetrate/damage a module, and fire saturation. i would love to hear more ideas on this and want to discuss this in a civil way.

thank you for participating in something that needs to happen

Try shooting HE with DD or CL guns at RU BB...

Very reliable...

 

AP still does more effective damage on BB than HE.

[ultimatedestroyer_sniper]

im not saying HE is the only problem, but it is one of the problems. one step at a time guys

yes i agree that BB HE is a huge problem and that was what i mainly meant with HE spam.

and yes, i agree that no fires on no pens wont work, didnt think it out

[FukushuNL]

14 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

No, because this 100% favours BBs, since they can pen everything with their HE, while Cruiser struggle against certain BBs to begin with. Not only do they deal 0 damage when it shatters, you would also remove their only way of damaging the ship at certain areas, more since since saturation exists. And DDs are even worse off, since they cant even pen Cruisers properly.

 

 

BB HE needs to be fixed, especially RN BB HE. One Cruiser farming you with HE should never be a problem. But a Thunderer shooting HE from 20km, starting basicly a fire every salvo is what causes issues. Imagine if a Cruiser would easily start several fires every 23 secs.

They do, some DDs too. If you push in a BB and a Woos, Smol, Daring, etc is welcoming you and showering you with their hot love, it sets fire as if your BB is made of matches. And if you use your dmg con, the next ten seconds, the fires are back, for good this time.

[HaachamaShipping]

12 minutes ago, FukushuNL said:

They do, some DDs too. If you push in a BB and a Woos, Smol, Daring, etc is welcoming you and showering you with their hot love, it sets fire as if your BB is made of matches. And if you use your dmg con, the next ten seconds, the fires are back, for good this time.

And if you are a Montana, they set you on fire in three places max, then can go try farm your superstructure which starts to saturate. Meanwhile if a Thunderer loads HE, doesn't matter where he hits, if it isn't the main belt, it's big damage. If it's a Smolensk or a DD, even if it hits centre of mass, it's potentially a devstrike, but guaranteed module loss.

[GarrusBrutus]

29 minutes ago, FukushuNL said:

They do, some DDs too. If you push in a BB and a Woos, Smol, Daring, etc is welcoming you and showering you with their hot love, it sets fire as if your BB is made of matches. And if you use your dmg con, the next ten seconds, the fires are back, for good this time.

Then do not use your dmg con too early..... you can let fires burn for a while because after the engagement you can heal most of it back. 

[Panocek]

1 hour ago, ultimatedestroyer_sniper said:

as i said in another thread, HE is currently way too powerful. sure it does less damage than ap but its much more consistant. a change i want to suggest is changing HE which would also very likely fix the passive matches we get all the time. one of the changes i can think of is fire saturation. i would love to hear more ideas on this and want to discuss this in a civil way.

thank you for participating in something that needs to happen

I wonder if ever increasing AP performance and accuracy on higher tiered battleships happily sitting bow on have something to do with cruisers being equally passive and playing dice rolls when it comes to rolling fires

[HaachamaShipping]

1 minute ago, Panocek said:

I wonder if ever increasing AP performance and accuracy on higher tiered battleships happily sitting bow on have something to do with cruisers being equally passive and playing dice rolls when it comes to rolling fires

It's quite interesting to see how silly it can get at the moment when basically all BBs have supercharged turret traverse, so you struggle to outrun even Yamato turrets.

[ultimatedestroyer_sniper]

can we please stay on the topic of changing things

 

[Panocek]

4 minutes ago, HaachamaShipping said:

It's quite interesting to see how silly it can get at the moment when basically all BBs have supercharged turret traverse, so you struggle to outrun even Yamato turrets.

Meanwhile Shimakaze and other DDs with questionable turret traverse struggle to keep guns on target

 

But yes, Massachusetts with Halsey+EM is topkek. Almost makes one wonder, if WG would deliver global turret traverse buff to BBmasterrace, given how enjoyable they can be when you can flick turrets around in no time.

 

1 minute ago, ultimatedestroyer_sniper said:

can we please stay on the topic of changing things

 

Nerf BB armor so small caliber AP would remain effective against them, regardless of angling.

 

Happy? 

[HaachamaShipping]

1 minute ago, ultimatedestroyer_sniper said:

can we please stay on the topic of changing things

 

We are on topic discussing whether the HE really needs changing.

[ultimatedestroyer_sniper]

Just now, HaachamaShipping said:

We are on topic discussing whether the HE really needs changing.

battleship HE does thats for sure. as for smolensk type ships, i dont think i need to explain. my problem with HE is that it requires next to no skill to use

[Hirohito]

1 hour ago, ultimatedestroyer_sniper said:

as i said in another thread, HE is currently way too powerful. sure it does less damage than ap but its much more consistant. a change i want to suggest is changing HE which would also very likely fix the passive matches we get all the time. one of the changes i can think of is fire saturation. i would love to hear more ideas on this and want to discuss this in a civil way.

thank you for participating in something that needs to happen

HE isn't too powerful, and any change to weaken it (along with fire damage) just benefits BBs even more.

Cruisers and DDs rely on HE, as they don't really have any other means to hurt BBs, and if they can't pen, fire damage is usually what they have left.

Saying this as a player who plays mostly BBs and DDs btw.

Btw., the reason we see "passive matches" meta at TX is not because of HE spam, but because most players at TX have realized that sailing straight ahead with guns blazing gets them killed, and that playing more safely (at good positions) is usually the better approach.
Take the ongoing KOTS tournament for instance, which is where the really good players duke it out.
Barring some games where one team pulls off a wild aggressive (and risky!) push, those games are all about reaching the key defensive points fast, and holding them at range, at which point it becomes a slow slug-fest of trading health points.
That's not because of an ammo type (HE), but because said players are too good to sail out in the open, and instead try to set up a position where they minimize firing angles onto their ship, while maximizing the firing angles they get on other ships.
After that, they try to hold their position and punish enemy misplays mostly with AP in order to secure a vital kill.
 

[Panocek]

2 minutes ago, ultimatedestroyer_sniper said:

battleship HE does thats for sure. as for smolensk type ships, i dont think i need to explain. my problem with HE is that it requires next to no skill to use

So does BB AP against cruisers. Just point, click, let RNGesus guide shells for you, print citadels or if target dares to angle, regular penetrations for still hefty damage because hurr durr 15k alpha shells.

 

Did I mention AP overpens completely ignore damage saturation, making them preferable choice over HE shells, should they land on saturated sections?

[HaachamaShipping]

2 minutes ago, ultimatedestroyer_sniper said:

as for smolensk type ships, i dont think i need to explain.

I don't see the issue really.

[Hirohito]

11 minutes ago, Panocek said:

I wonder if ever increasing AP performance and accuracy on higher tiered battleships happily sitting bow on have something to do with cruisers being equally passive and playing dice rolls when it comes to rolling fires

Yeah.
Streamed KOTS yesterday, and of the BBs I saw, all were Kremlin, Ohio Thunderer and a few Slavas.
Incidentally, these BBs all sport 457mm guns that overmatch cruiser bows.

[ultimatedestroyer_sniper]

1 minute ago, Panocek said:

So does BB AP against cruisers. Just point, click, let RNGesus guide shells for you, print citadels or if target dares to angle, regular penetrations for still hefty damage because hurr durr 15k alpha shells.

im not picking sides of a ship class since i play pretty much everything but cvs, and i know that as long as a cruiser knows what hes doing at tier x he can farm a bb. if the bb is more skilled off course the cruiser loses but that works both ways

[Panocek]

Just now, Hirohito said:

Yeah.
Streamed KOTS yesterday, and I saw nothing but Kremlin, Ohio Thunderer and a few Slavas being played.
Incidentally, these BBs all sport 457mm guns that overmatch cruiser bows.

These guns, with exception of Slava can overmatch 30mm plating, present on cruiser amidships. And WG gave T10 cruisers 30mm plating to "increase survivability"... while pumping all kinds of interesting battleships with 30mm overmatch capability in meantime

[Panocek]

3 minutes ago, ultimatedestroyer_sniper said:

im not picking sides of a ship class since i play pretty much everything but cvs, and i know that as long as a cruiser knows what hes doing at tier x he can farm a bb. if the bb is more skilled off course the cruiser loses but that works both ways

"cruiser can farm a BB" only when using island cover and someone else does the spotting. In the open, 1v1, only way for cruiser to win is to stuff battleship with torpedoes somehow or BB must have low hp in first place.

Or be of balans variety with plating thick enough to ricochet most AP shells. But then, BB grade HE dismantles Moskva, Petro or Stalin worryingly fast as well and you can't angle against that.

 

Doublepost best post

[ultimatedestroyer_sniper]

i do agree that wargaming probably have no idea what theyre doing. the 457 spam is indeed hurting the game as well. just yamato was good enough but you have to admit that an angled hindenburg sitting at 19km lobbing shells at you over and over again is quite frustrating in the sense that youll just bounce of him while getting farmed. its a difficult  topic

[Hirohito]

52 minutes ago, FukushuNL said:

They do, some DDs too. If you push in a BB and a Woos, Smol, Daring, etc is welcoming you and showering you with their hot love, it sets fire as if your BB is made of matches. And if you use your dmg con, the next ten seconds, the fires are back, for good this time.

So what?
First of all - if you are taking that amount of HE fire over an extended time, you as a BB captain grossly misplayed your position. HE and fire damage is not at fault, you are because you are getting punished for your poor positioning.
Secondly - BBs are the one class that can actually survive that amount of fire (through sheer health pool, and cycling repair parties and damage con to the maximum effect).

[ultimatedestroyer_sniper]

Just now, Panocek said:

"cruiser can farm a BB" only when using island cover and someone else does the spotting. In the open, 1v1, only way for cruiser to win is to stuff battleship with torpedoes somehow or BB must have low hp in first place.

Or be of balans variety with plating thick enough to ricochet most AP shells. But then, BB grade HE dismantles Moskva, Petro or Stalin worryingly fast as well and you can't angle against that.

 

Doublepost best post

not sure if i can agree on this. take my previous hindenburg example. just gotta dodge his shots and youll be on top.

[ultimatedestroyer_sniper]

9 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

HE isn't too powerful, and any change to weaken it (along with fire damage) just benefits BBs even more.

Cruisers and DDs rely on HE, as they don't really have any other means to hurt BBs, and if they can't pen, fire damage is usually what they have left.

Saying this as a player who plays mostly BBs and DDs btw.

Btw., the reason we see "passive matches" meta at TX is not because of HE spam, but because most players at TX have realized that sailing straight ahead with guns blazing gets them killed, and that playing more safely (at good positions) is usually the better approach.
Take the ongoing KOTS tournament for instance, which is where the really good players duke it out.
Barring some games where one team pulls off a wild aggressive (and risky!) push, those games are all about reaching the key defensive points fast, and holding them at range, at which point it becomes a slow slug-fest of trading health points.
That's not because of an ammo type (HE), but because said players are too good to sail out in the open, and instead try to set up a position where they minimize firing angles onto their ship, while maximizing the firing angles they get on other ships.
After that, they try to hold their position and punish enemy misplays mostly with AP in order to secure a vital kill.
 

this is true but its not good for the game at all, which is why it needs changing. take kurfurst as an example