@Wargaming - Captain rework feedback - BB Secondary

[Defianted]

The community have for a long time been asking for more focus on the secondary specs for the BBs. The key here is what is FUN to play. My feedback are going to be short and on point.

 

As a cruiser captain or a DD captain you are very on your toes regarding you play style. To make an example here at a very theoretically game, it usually starts with 3 mins where you have nothing spotted and at the end .... lets say you do not have so much to fire at, so that the last two mins you do not fire at all. So for this example lets say that you are able to fire at other ships for 15 min of the game. and lets pretend you fire at all the time fore 15 min. A BB have on average 30 sec reload. A Smolensk shoots every  3,7 sec. This means that playing a BB is a VERY slow paced and tends to be ... a bit boring. You are also very vulnerably after firing your guns as you can not put any pressure on any target during the reload time. 

 

This is where the secondary BBs comes in. They change this play style ALLOT. This is for the better. If you fire your guns, you can still put pressure on any DD or Cruisers pushing on you. It will not be lethal as the main guns, but it is significantly so that your opponents will be affected by this. This is the reason that the secondary BBs are so much fun to play, as this at least give you the opportunity to push. Nobody likes BBs staying in the back sniping. Accuracy is very important here as this is the only way to actually keep pressure on the DDs. The new commander points reduces the accuracy for .... what I understand is the opportunity to fire the secondaries on both sides. To be able to fire  your secondaries on both sides are circumstantial at best, but accuracy are always important. This is what makes secondaries spec fun. You can push because you have the opportunity to put some pressure on the target you deem most dangerous. 

 

The second thing here is equally important. As stated in the beginning non secondary BBs are very stale and easily boring. The Secondaries bring so much adaptability to the play style that are just fun. A game should be fun. Please do not build down the ability to push and being adaptable. If you ask me, I would never trade accuracy secondaries to be able to fire them on both sides. Accuracy is what gives secondary BBs the edge to push even if there is a DD or a cruiser hiding. Please do not make this weaker. We have asked you for a long time to build more on secondaries as it is very fun game play, more active and way compelling to play. 

[Azalgor]

The best secondary guns are on Graf Zepelin, a carrier, nothing comes close to their accuracy, interesting huh?

 

Now regarding BB, an average player doesnt even know where the center of the map is, and if you say that a BB has secondaries or torps, what they want is to use them, as a result they go die in first 3 min. Pommern repeated what Tirpitz reliece did on a new scale. Also funny how German BB have no accuracy and garbage secondaries (what was supposed to be their feature) new US BB bring in both accurate guns and decent secondaries, ah, right, those are premium ones...

[Miscommunication_dept]

1 hour ago, Azalgor said:

The best secondary guns are on Graf Zepelin, a carrier, nothing comes close to their accuracy, interesting huh?

 

Now regarding BB, an average player doesnt even know where the center of the map is, and if you say that a BB has secondaries or torps, what they want is to use them, as a result they go die in first 3 min. Pommern repeated what Tirpitz reliece did on a new scale. Also funny how German BB have no accuracy and garbage secondaries (what was supposed to be their feature) new US BB bring in both accurate guns and decent secondaries, ah, right, those are premium ones...

 

It certainly can be argued that German battleships lost their secondary edge when the Massachusetts appeared. 

 

At 11km the Germans have 657m dispersion while Massachussetts/Ohio/Georgia have 393m.

 

DPM is very similar.

Germans have better pen but until the GK, the vast majority of their secondaries have only 26mm pen. That means that just like the Massachusetts, they can only pen superstructure on T8-10 battleships.

 

The difference is that the USN secondaries are effective without speccing into them at all. Just put the secondary module and you have nice secondaries that do a lot of work while you keep all the normal tank and concealment skills.

 

 

 

 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

I love secondairy BB's. I'd say I really don't enjoy BB's when they don't offer a proper secondairy build. I'm actually in favor of the new skill idea, where both sides fire and accuracy is specifically enhanced on the target you select. I wish AA worked this way (it did in the old days if I recall correctly).

 

Note: Matches don't often take the full 20 minutes these days. And there are plenty of people who enjoy back of the map range BB sniping.

[Hades_warrior]

10 minutes ago, Europizza said:

I love secondairy BB's. I'd say I really don't enjoy BB's when they don't offer a proper secondairy build. I'm actually in favor of the new skill idea, where both sides fire and accuracy is specifically enhanced on the target you select. I wish AA worked this way (it did in the old days if I recall correctly).

 

Note: Matches don't often take the full 20 minutes these days. And there are plenty of people who enjoy back of the map range BB sniping.

Bold part - You mean nerfed?

Accuracy of secondary guns will be from 60% down to only 35%. So yes, they are enhanced.

 

I am against this rework but my opinion doesn't matter (or by people who think like me) because this will happen we like it or not.

[Beastofwar]

I think when going through all the info on the captain skills -  the more usefull info on that being on NA server - it become apparent WG wants all ships to fight at closer ranges except for ships that are specifically designed for sniping long range.

 

At the same time fire chance is reduced and using torpedo's encouraged = encouraging Cruisers fighting at closer ranges when they want to fight Battleships.

 

When encouraging most ship types to fight at closer ranges it would be counter-productive to punish them with accurate secondary batteries......so WG probably figured out what was needed to not make secondary batteries no greater threat then they are now.

 

Now what i think is unfair to those enjoying secondary builds is the extreme variation in ship specific secondary battery accruracy before it is affected by captain skills. A manual secondary skilled Massachussets can kill a DD with only using secondaries well before a same tier DD can : 28 seconds. An IFHE Massachussets can rip apart most Cruisers in it's secondary range too. And if not enough can fire over islands with high arcs too.

 

But when that is practically any other BB, with the UK and IT ones as worst examples, that would require over 3 minutes of continuous firing to killa DD's worth of HP.  It seems now every BB must suffer rediculous weak secondaries only to prevent Massachussets and Graf Zeppeling becoming an insane OP secondary monster.

 

I think they should nerf the Massachussets and Graf Zeppelin and buff overall BB to a more or less usable overall accuracy, so when taking a secondary build that will do something for ALL type of BB or even Cruisers with lots of scondaries. I have no objection some nations or ships being better at it, but not with these insane perfomance gaps.

 

Afterall secondary batteries added weight would never have been applied to ships if they were as useless for most ships as they are in game !

 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

1 minute ago, Hades_warrior said:

Bold part - You mean nerfed?

Accuracy of secondary guns will be from 60% down to only 35%. So yes, they are enhanced.

Sorry if I was unclear: I am talking about a situation where selecting a target enhances accuracy on that specific target compared to the other non selected targets which get fired upon with the default accuracy setting. I'm not talking about the accuracy nerf compared to the current situation. I think I can live with that nerf in the new situation, or rather see it set to 40%. I don't see it as a secondairy build breaking change.

[Hades_warrior]

6 minutes ago, Europizza said:

Sorry if I was unclear: I am talking about a situation where selecting a target enhances accuracy on that specific target compared to the other non selected targets which get fired upon with the default accuracy setting. I'm not talking about the accuracy nerf compared to the current situation. I think I can live with that nerf in the new situation, or rather see it set to 40%. I don't see it as a secondairy build breaking change.

I really dont believe wg will change that dispersion value. But I wouldn't be surprised if they nerf it even more.

Im very sceptic about this rework. One thing is sure - Massachusetts won't be able to chase dd's anymore with secondaries Or better to say, all high tier German BBs.

[Major_Damage225]

3 hours ago, Azalgor said:

The best secondary guns are on Graf Zepelin, a carrier, nothing comes close to their accuracy, interesting huh?

 

Arkansas Beta would like to have a word with you 

Most acurate secondary guns in the game, nothing comes close. 

But yeah it kinda dosent count since shes a test reward ship. 

[Miscommunication_dept]

1 hour ago, Major_Damage225 said:

Arkansas Beta would like to have a word with you 

Most acurate secondary guns in the game, nothing comes close. 

But yeah it kinda dosent count since shes a test reward ship. 

Same dispersion model as the Graf.

[Major_Damage225]

1 hour ago, gopher31 said:

Same dispersion model as the Graf.

Ooh, i thought only arky has that, never checked graf tbf, thnx for the correction then. 

[Defianted]

@Beastofwar To be fair I think that saying WG "Wants closer games" is not what they do though. Look at the really long ranges of the cruiser HE spammers these days and many of them are also equipped with a spotter plane. Many of these small caliber guns rival the range of many BBs big guns. The new ships does not get shorter range. This also goes towards the BBs, just look at the Slava and the Champagne. They both can with their long range and super dispersion just stay on max range and snipe all day.  This is not a set up for the game play that you are describing.  Secondary ships are a push towards getting BBs to actually push in closer.

 

Now I understand that this touches a bigger discussion and it is not what I wanted to point out originally. What I wanted to point out is that secondary BBs offer a way more active and fun game play. You should not weaken this, but strengthen it. Just look for how long BB players have asked for this. 

 

Also. Nerfing any Premium Ships is a no go. This was up earlier when WG wanted to nerf the JC. It did not happen and WG said that they changed their mind and did listen to the players in this case. The reason is that you can play your way and unlock a ship. Nerf it and buff it all you want. A premium ship how ever, you would have payed quite allot of money to get this product. It would be an unethical business practice to nerf it after you bought it with real cash. This discussion is dead for a long time ago. These ships are what they are. Change a class over all, yes, but a premium specifically, NO. 

[Panocek]

20 hours ago, Hades_warrior said:

Bold part - You mean nerfed?

Accuracy of secondary guns will be from 60% down to only 35%. So yes, they are enhanced.

 

I am against this rework but my opinion doesn't matter (or by people who think like me) because this will happen we like it or not.

WG also confirmed global secondary range extension across the board, it wouldn't be outside of realms of possibility they would improve dispersion as well.

 

I guess WG could roll with long range being kinda standard value with little means of improving it, while skills/upgrades tied to secondaries would focus on accuracy and reload.

[Miscommunication_dept]

1 hour ago, Panocek said:

WG also confirmed global secondary range extension across the board, it wouldn't be outside of realms of possibility they would improve dispersion as well.

 

I guess WG could roll with long range being kinda standard value with little means of improving it, while skills/upgrades tied to secondaries would focus on accuracy and reload.

WG said the ‘majority’ of battleships would get increased secondary range.

This could mean all battleships get the same secondary range, 

Or it could mean the secondary battleships getting increased range.

 

I’d like them to clarify that but I’m not expecting them too for a while.

 

Cheaper secondary builds may be one of the best parts of this change.

[Beastofwar]

8 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

WG said the ‘majority’ of battleships would get increased secondary range.

This could mean all battleships get the same secondary range, 

Or it could mean the secondary battleships getting increased range.

 

I’d like them to clarify that but I’m not expecting them too for a while.

 

Cheaper secondary builds may be one of the best parts of this change.

 

But range does nothing except once in a while hitting with a stray shell. You already need to be in < 6 km for any ship before the most accurate secondaries hit anywhere reliable. Increasing range and spraying around won't give anyone satisfaction in a secondary build.

 

You should be able at heavy loss of other skills - to prevent everyone and their mother taking it -  be able to have an EFFICIENT = ACCURATE secondary build. On ships other then Massachussets.

[albin322]

22 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

I think when going through all the info on the captain skills -  the more usefull info on that being on NA server - it become apparent WG wants all ships to fight at closer ranges except for ships that are specifically designed for sniping long range.

 

At the same time fire chance is reduced and using torpedo's encouraged = encouraging Cruisers fighting at closer ranges when they want to fight Battleships.

 

When encouraging most ship types to fight at closer ranges it would be counter-productive to punish them with accurate secondary batteries......so WG probably figured out what was needed to not make secondary batteries no greater threat then they are now.

 

Now what i think is unfair to those enjoying secondary builds is the extreme variation in ship specific secondary battery accruracy before it is affected by captain skills. A manual secondary skilled Massachussets can kill a DD with only using secondaries well before a same tier DD can : 28 seconds. An IFHE Massachussets can rip apart most Cruisers in it's secondary range too. And if not enough can fire over islands with high arcs too.

 

But when that is practically any other BB, with the UK and IT ones as worst examples, that would require over 3 minutes of continuous firing to killa DD's worth of HP.  It seems now every BB must suffer rediculous weak secondaries only to prevent Massachussets and Graf Zeppeling becoming an insane OP secondary monster.

 

I think they should nerf the Massachussets and Graf Zeppelin and buff overall BB to a more or less usable overall accuracy, so when taking a secondary build that will do something for ALL type of BB or even Cruisers with lots of scondaries. I have no objection some nations or ships being better at it, but not with these insane perfomance gaps.

 

Afterall secondary batteries added weight would never have been applied to ships if they were as useless for most ships as they are in game !

 

nerf my premiums ? then i demand a refund ! 

[Beastofwar]

10 minutes ago, albin322 said:

nerf my premiums ? then i demand a refund ! 

 

It is also my premium.....but if that thing has received such a stupid boost to secondary accuracy that all other BB need to sail around with drunken spraying secondaries - EVEN WITH A FULL SECONDARY BUILD !! - and cannot be mass boosted with captain skill because that would give Massa rail gun secondaries it is a very bad thing.

 

Then again they don't need to nerf the Massa or boost secondary accuracy for all ships via a captain skill by a large margin.......they then need to chance the accuracy value of all other ships except the Massa and the German Premium CV.

[MRGTB]

2 hours ago, Panocek said:

WG also confirmed global secondary range extension across the board, it wouldn't be outside of realms of possibility they would improve dispersion as well.

 

I guess WG could roll with long range being kinda standard value with little means of improving it, while skills/upgrades tied to secondaries would focus on accuracy and reload.

This is an outright nerf to secondary guns. Doesn't matter if they extend the range of the secondary guns on some ships, not if they are reducing the hit percentage down from 60% to 35%. Basically, it means secondary guns will become much like how AA guns are to planes now on ships. Just a gimmick that doesn't work any long - but giving them extra range to try and make them look more gimmicky and useful on ships.

 

What's going to happen now to premium ships like Matty that has built-in better hit rate on secondary guns. Or German BB's that have better secondary than any other nation if they  nerf the hit rate percentage on them? it's obvious the secondary guns will become far more useless, no matter what range they shoot too

 

Looks like Wargaming want to add more "eye-candy fireworks" to secondary guns (by extending the range) on other ships. But at same time making them far more useless by nerfing the hit percentage

[Hades_warrior]

2 hours ago, Panocek said:

WG also confirmed global secondary range extension across the board, it wouldn't be outside of realms of possibility they would improve dispersion as well.

 

I guess WG could roll with long range being kinda standard value with little means of improving it, while skills/upgrades tied to secondaries would focus on accuracy and reload.

Yeah yeah... We all know about that ''range extension''. Like I said numerous times by now, those (small) buffs are bad trade for secondary accuracy.

And I seriously doubt they will improve dispersion. This is wg we are talking about.

[Hades_warrior]

23 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

I think they should nerf the Massachussets

Yea how about no.

Everyone would request money refund for that ship if they nerf it because it wouldn't be the same ship anymore that customers bought for real money.

But that won't happen because its against their policy and even the law to do such thing as nerfing Premium ship post release.

[Panocek]

10 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

This is an outright nerf to secondary guns. Doesn't matter if they extend the range of the secondary guns on some ships, not if they are reducing the hit percentage down from 60% to 35%. Basically, it means secondary guns will become much AA guns are to planes on ships now. Just a gimmick that doesn't work any long - but giving them extra range to try and make them look more gimmicky and useful on ships.

 

What's going to happen now to premium ships like Matty that has built-in better hit rate on secondary guns. Or German BB's that have better secondary than any other nation if they reduce nerf the hit rate percentage on them?

On positive, T6 and below BBs get accuracy bonus from 15% to 35%. Tbh, I see "only" 35% accuracy bonus as buff to Massa/Georgia/Ohio - their default dispersion, without ManSec is decent enough to hit BBs even at max range, while with reworked skill you will be able to keep both broadsides blazing with designating target being one further away. Or destroyer for that matter.

 

And secondaries always were gimmick you had to spend heavily into, you not always could make use of it and just like AA, can be very quickly removed off your ship leaving you in awkward spot.

 

6 minutes ago, Hades_warrior said:

But that won't happen because its against their policy and even the law to do such thing as nerfing Premium ship post release.

Unless its "global change" then they are free to [edited]up any and all premiums they feel like

 

Tbh, one of the vibes I get from looking at reworked skills again is essentially reducing impact of skills on ship performance, effectively reducing need for highly leveled captains because skills give so little. Kinda like communism - equal amount of poverty for everyone.

[MRGTB]

6 minutes ago, Hades_warrior said:

Yea how about no.

Everyone would request money refund for that ship if they nerf it because it wouldn't be the same ship anymore that customers bought for real money.

But that won't happen because its against their policy and even the law to do such thing as nerfing Premium ship post release.

Ah! But wargaming always use the excuse that it's a "global" nerf across the game so they can nerf any premium and you can't ask for a cash refund.

 

They have done this a few times now calling it a global nerf to get away with nerfing premiums ships also. I'm done spending money on this game any further... they are doing the same thing again and it will affect some premium ships that you paid money for a "specific thing" good about them. That they now later nerf using the excuse "it's a global nerf across the game".

[MRGTB]

26 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

It is also my premium.....but if that thing has received such a stupid boost to secondary accuracy that all other BB need to sail around with drunken spraying secondaries - EVEN WITH A FULL SECONDARY BUILD !! - and cannot be mass boosted with captain skill because that would give Massa rail gun secondaries it is a very bad thing.

 

Then again they don't need to nerf the Massa or boost secondary accuracy for all ships via a captain skill by a large margin.......they then need to chance the accuracy value of all other ships except the Massa and the German Premium CV.

I suspect Massa will end up with a hit accuracy nerf, if this is being done with other BBs.

 

Just don't see that Massa will be left untouched, when other BB's get nerfed down from 60 to 35% accuracy

 

Which will probably also happen to the likes of Pommern, it's secondary guns will become less effective, same as Tirps, Bart, George, Gascan, and any other premium BB that was sold based on it having decent secondary guns

 

As far as extending the secondary range goes. Well, I don't see how they will extend the range of Pommern or Oden any further than they are now at 11+ k range. They will mostly stay the same- while other BBs with much shorter secondary range gets the range buff. So in short premium ships like Pommern and Oden, maybe even Bart and a few other premium BBs that can shoot secondary 10+ k with full build. They might gain no further range but still get hit with a accuracy nerf

[Panocek]

52 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

Just don't see that Massa will be left untouched, when other BB's get nerfed down from 60 to 35% accuracy

All ships getting Massa secondary dispersion would one way to indirectly nerf her and then ManSec nerf. Which, with Massa dispersion is reasonable, as her secondaries <7km are bit TOO accurate and start hitting main belt consistently instead superstructure and/or other sections for occasional fire. They are brutal against destroyers tho.

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, MRGTB said:

Just don't see that Massa will be left untouched, when other BB's get nerfed down from 60 to 35% accuracy 

 

How is it a nerf to any specific BB (Massa in this case) when the captain skill has no direct influence towards Massa? Is Massa somehow sold with Manual secondary skill?

The changes we currently know of, is an overhaul to a skill, which impacts ships both positively and negatively. We dont even know, if or how those ships get compensated in any other form. Massa will work fine even with only 35% dispersion buff instead of 60% - i know from people playing it without that skill.

We might end up with a scenario like this:

- US secondary BBs get improved dispersion (like we have now)

- German BBs get improved pen (like we have now)

- All others just get the range without any extra dispersion or penetration, like French BBs currently. (what they claim as "majority of BBs will get longer secondary range" could just mean this).