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ForlornSailor

What considers good/proper teamplay

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22 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

Proper team play can not arise from this setting

 

1 minute ago, Allied_Winter said:

So yeah, people COULD create teamplay. If they'd bother about it.

/edit: so now that ive typed so much, maybe you can split this off, since Id really like to continue this aspect of the discussion and it is indeed off-topic.

 

We need to define whats "proper" teamplay. I dont expect perfect teamplay, especially not on average. But as I said, the borders between basic gameplay and what I call Teamplay, are fluid. A DD that spots in the first place, a cruiser that uses the smoke screen to get into position, a BB that pays attention to the DDs spotting and shoots on the radar cruiser - those are game play and teamplay basic mechachics at the same time. And its those very basic things, that already makes division [with strong players] as influencal as they are.

 

When I play a DD in my division, I know I can count on the cruiser behind me to shoot the DD. Thus I can take the engagement, also because I know, in most cases, the enemy team will ignore me. See, this goes both ways. If the playerbase on average would be more focused on these very basics, I would already have a harder time playing as a DD. It would automatically reduce our impact. Also, I might not be "forced" to play in divisions, if I know, people will focus the right targets on my spotting, when playing a DD.

 

And over the years, ive seen a steady decline in these basic gameplay aspects. It has constantly become easier to play in a division. Now one could argue, that this is because of learning curve and getting better. Although I personally think, im playing close to my peak for about the last... 1500 games / 2 years or such. Small improvements, sure, but not huge steps anymore. What changes, if for me especially obvious when playing a DD. and the CV rework played a huge role. Before, atleast every second enemy DD was halfway decent atleast. That means, it comes atleast with the basics. CE, LS and a camo. These days, I run into so many DDs without CE/LS, even on T8+, its not even funny. That makes it even easier to take out this target and already a few mins into the game, our division has pushed the chanes of winning highly into our favour.

 

And bothering about teamplay is another good point. Now we all know we play in an environment, where damage is everything. And thats part of the problem I suppose. But contrary to believe, spotting & capping does get rewarded - its just not that well known among the community. Also, as I noted earlier, spotting is fine and dandy, but someone needs to act on that. If nobody shoots on your spotting, you dont get spotting damage and thus no XP. Maybe that is already wrong and sole spotting should be rewarded. Then again, we have no clear info, what and how things are rewarded exactly which is... another part of the problem.

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Hello together,

 

in a different thread the talk about "what is proper teamplay" arose. Steming from the comment I made, that Warships (at least Random, CoOp, Ranked and Asymmetric battles) are not necessarily a "team game".

 

The only inheritent team defining attribute would be, that the MM puts 12 v 12 players against each other. But other than that, nothing points towards "team play". I quote myself here:

Quote

There's an outer shell (the 12 men line up) filled with folks that should adhere to the simplest rules (don't shoot green players) and not really a target (note how nowhere in the rules it's said to e.g. play for the objective or shoot enemy players). It's hinted via the tutorials and how the game is set up (more dmg = more XP = more fun?). But other than that? Nothing.

 

So yeah, people COULD create teamplay. If they'd bother about it. But, given the average player, this is not the case. And from WG's perspective probably detrimental to the games success.

To which at least one fellow forumite responded.

 

However, since it'd be OT in the different thread, it'd be best to split the discussion and continue here.

 

So I put the question forward to the forum: How do you define good/proper teamplay?

 

In case my answer wasn't clear from what I wrote above, let me rephrase: Proper team play is mostly communication and coordination of the actions you do in game. However since most actions base around what a player does solo, proper team play doesn't really exist (anymore ... if it ever existed).

 

This thread is NOT: 

- A discussion about the MM (we have a thread for that)

- A "rant" where you can load off about your "bad" team mates that didn't play to your liking

- A place where you can load off your dislikes about a particular class (whatever that maybe, if you have constructive feedback regarding that class --> There's in most cases already a thread for that)

 

This thread is:

- A place to define what this community thinks is considered to be good teamplay

- A place on how this teamplay could be achieved.

 

 

Thank you!

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What makes 3x division with really good players so strong? Its not usually teamplay, it's just fact that quarter of you team are... really good players.

To answer your question, proper teamplay can't really be define, it depends to much on situation you are in. Just play good and help your team win, wanilla answer... i know but forcing on yourself "good guy mentality" in a game where most of times you play against 23 players is quick way to insanity.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Stormhawk_V said:

Remember when WG said they can't reward teamplay like spotting because players would abuse it?

No, because WG never said that. Spotting and tanking IS part of the XP calculation.

 

What WG said, that they'd never release the XP generating formula in total as that would be abused. I don't get that one, but WG probably knows that better than me. :fish_aqua:

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21 minutes ago, rurkovsky said:

What makes 3x division with really good players so strong? Its not usually teamplay, it's just fact that quarter of you team are... really good players.

To answer your question, proper teamplay can't really be define, it depends to much on situation you are in. Just play good and help your team win, wanilla answer... i know but forcing on yourself "good guy mentality" in a game where most of times you play against 23 players is quick way to insanity.

 

 

 

Re the 3xDivisions, it is both. Being good players is a must, since you can't polish 3 turds. Being able to coordinate between those 3 good players, usually in the same area/cap, is a clear multiplier.

 

Being able to coordinately respond to any situation you find yourselves in (for Divisions) and generally speaking to follow some basic guidelines like shooting DDs and radar cruisers first is proper teamplay.

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Proper teamplay is

- what helps your team win

- what makes your team perform better than just the mere sum of its ships. Aka help it become a system instead of remaining a jumbled mess of individual ships.

Here's a depressing replay as a bonus.

https://replayswows.com/replay/106468#stats

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2 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

the borders between basic gameplay and what I call Teamplay

Well ... yes. To I'd say about half. The other is ... let's say "the desire to win". Although we can assume that as a given.

 

A DD that goes for the cap? Good. One that immediately smokes? Bad

A cruiser that follows it's DDs? Good. Not using WASD Hax to evade incoming fire when he's spotted? Bad (or really really good gameplay)

A BB that shoots at spotted enemy DDs? Good. Waiting two minutes until the friendly radar is off of cooldown to shoot again? Bad.

 

As you said, these basics need to be in order for teamplay (in form of coordination and communication) to work. And I've had my fair share of successfull games where team play happend, thanks to the F-commands.

 

2 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

And over the years, ive seen a steady decline in these basic gameplay aspects.

Maybe. I don't want to comment on that too much, since it's mostly subjective. There are certain aspects that made it more challenging for everybody (e.g. rework's), but other than that? Teamwork was always subject to Luck. Luck of having the right player (that fits your ships/playstyle) at your side. Luck of being in a game where it matters. 

 

2 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

If the playerbase on average would be more focused on these very basics

True. But you're arguing for the causal player to be more invested into the game when this is not really the target audience. Remember: World of Warplanes took a dive (pun intended) because according to Mr. Kislyi himself said in an interview that it was too challenging.

 

Quote:

Quote

But as a computer game, where you want to spend 10 minutes to let off steam and have fun, though, the amount of effort your brain had to make was more than the fun you got back.

(Note he's talking about World of Warplanes here). Which should explain a lot.

 

The basic game should be simple. So that - ideally - a lot of players try it out (populating the servers, feeding the devs, and so on). Thus anything that stands in the way of that - like an increased focus on learning basic gameplay first - might jeopardize the appeal to a majority of the target audience.

 

2 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

Then again, we have no clear info, what and how things are rewarded exactly which is... another part of the problem.

Of course. For the invested folks like you and me. Not though for the majority (of course I can only assume this, but I doubt that WG doesn't know what their players want/should get).

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Aside from what's already been said (proper spotting, proper targeting), the thing that I've found improves teamplay the most is communication, which is why divisions with decent players get the edge. Even if it's just at the beginning, telling others about your particular perks and moves makes them pay more attention and try to support: saying you'll provide a screen at a certain place gets the radar cruisers closer; indication that you're a radar Minotaur gives a protective smoke, and makes people pay attention to the cap you're approaching, more often; signalling a red and saying it used damage control increases the chances of focus. Even just hinting you've got spotter on Musashi leans your own CV into spending a bit of time locating his counterpart. As long as the others feel they're doing it on their own volition everybody collaborates more. And I'm basically a solo player, mind you.

 

Salute.

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Proper teamplay is to do whatever it takes for the team to win, it is irrespective of divisions.

 

It always depends on the situation, sometimes you are required to be aggressive, sometimes you need to kite, sometimes you need to keep your guns silent and just spot / run, sometimes you let a teammate die to not endanger two ships / waste consumables for one guy who made a mistake and is dead anyway. Proper communication - friendly, to the point, unambiguous - is helpful.

If I had a nemesis and he happened to be on my team I would support him as much as every other team member. The team's victory is more important than my personal feelings.

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1 hour ago, Allied_Winter said:

How do you define good/proper teamplay?

I think answering this question depends on the goals and objectives ou are expecting to achieve.

Because it differs on game mode (random, Coop, Clan wars battles, scenarios) so something that is considered as good teamplay in CW can be nonsense in the random etc.

Also, these objectives can vary for different players. 

 

I think that because Wows is a game and the primary objective of the game is to be entertaining than anything that generally brings entertainment to the battle can be considered as proper team play.

And have to emphasize that it have to be entertainment for most players not only one (so teamkill may be entertainment for one player but not for others).

 

 

 

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Team play could be described as prioritising the objectives of the battle and co-operating to achieve them.  To the majority of new players the game is just another type of first person shooter and the over emphasis by WG on damage and sinking the enemy only over emphasises this.  If damage and sinking were the real priorities in the battles, the maps wouldn't need the coloured circles all over them.  Many new players just want to shoot.  I recall being hassled by another player as I was trying to perform a quick winning cap because he didn't want the battle to end because there were still ships for him to sink.  WG are looking at alternative battle modes such as asymmetric battles but these need more team play and without it are less rewarding.  I feel that they are missing a trick.  What the game needs is a wastepaper bin for all the FPS types who just want to blast.  I'd have a discrete mode with no other objectives than shooting and sinking.  All the action men would gravitate towards it and although there would be less players in modes like asymmetric and random, players there would mainly be there because they looked for the type of battle where team play actually rewards.  With like minded players congregating in battles where team play was  rewarded, I doubt that we'd have to define what team play actually was because the players would have an understanding of what was needed.  I'd queue for 3 minutes to collect enough players who understood that subterfuge, stealth and tactics to outmanoeuvre the enemy and fulfil the objectives were as rewarding to play as just shooting at everything!  If we cannot raise players to that standard, give them somewhere else to play Rambo and enjoy themselves without upsetting others.

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Good team play for me is also watching what team members are doing and if possible help them to achieve what they are doing if that is helpful to the team chance of winning and thereby ultimately helping yourself.

 

In a CV that is often easy......full force attacking an enemy advancing push can help the guys facing that a lot. Throwing out fighter consumables over low HP retreating allies to give them time to repair. And so on.....

 

In a BB overextending i was saved by a DD rather then that guy mocking me for being there in the first place. Since i wasn't firing guns anymore the smokescreen he put up was working so i could disengage and repair from pretty low HP and come back and get up to 80+ K damage and be afloat when we won. Such action everyone can appriciate i recon.....it is much better to play that way then everyone for himself.

 

 

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