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Harvin87

DD builds (various doubts)

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Hello captains!

I think you can help me out with these questions I have on new ships I have or will have in the near future.

  • Z-23 128mm guns or 150mm? Of course different reload times... is it a question of style or is there the superior option? I know the German DD guns received a penetration buff, so maybe the 128mm is enough? I mean, I always feel more confortable with hybrid DDs, that means fast or more or less fast firing guns (my favorite ships are Akizuki and Kitakaze) although I like the American DDs and also the Germans.
  • Cossack: The guns already have good penetration, is IFHE a must? 

Thanks!

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26 minutes ago, Harvin87 said:
  • Z-23 128mm guns or 150mm? Of course different reload times... is it a question of style or is there the superior option? I know the German DD guns received a penetration buff, so maybe the 128mm is enough? I mean, I always feel more confortable with hybrid DDs, that means fast or more or less fast firing guns (my favorite ships are Akizuki and Kitakaze) although I like the American DDs and also the Germans.
  • Cossack: The guns already have good penetration, is IFHE a must? 

150's on the Z-23 and IFHE isn't needed on Cossack. 

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21 minutes ago, Harvin87 said:

Hello captains!

I think you can help me out with these questions I have on new ships I have or will have in the near future.

  • Z-23 128mm guns or 150mm? Of course different reload times... is it a question of style or is there the superior option? I know the German DD guns received a penetration buff, so maybe the 128mm is enough? I mean, I always feel more confortable with hybrid DDs, that means fast or more or less fast firing guns (my favorite ships are Akizuki and Kitakaze) although I like the American DDs and also the Germans.
  • Cossack: The guns already have good penetration, is IFHE a must? 

Thanks!

Z23 is case of "whoever wins, you lose". Theorethical dpm is similar on 4x128 and 5x150, so I'd go with 15cm guns for that improved HE pen and salvo weight. But, you can't improve reload from BFT which can be useful on next ships in the line. That said, Kagero outguns you regardless of gun setup you pick.

 

Cossack is more than fine without IFHE as your main targets are destroyers. And then with IFHE you gain very little - only 25mm, and with tier 8 cruisers start getting 27mm plating, so you're back at square one, but without fire chance.

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46 minutes ago, Panocek said:

That said, Kagero outguns you regardless of gun setup you pick.

If you are losing gun fights to Kags in Z-23 you are not playing it right.

 

(I don't mean you personally, just your example scenario, does that make sense??)

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4 minutes ago, Bear__Necessities said:

If you are losing gun fights to Kags in Z-23 you are not playing it right.

 

(I don't mean you personally, just your example scenario, does that make sense??)

It would be rather hard to dictate rules of engagement in Zed against Kagero in open waters, as latter have only massive concealment advantage and perfect turret placement for kiting. Only way for Zed to go anywhere would be around the island ambush, coupled with smoke+hydro

AP on 15cm guns still need 25mm effective armor, which means margin where you can arm those on DD hull before entering ricochet angle is rather narrow.

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[THIR]
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IFHE Cossack was only a thing before the rework as it allowed you to penetrate most cruisers and many lowtier BBs. Now you're better off with Radio Location.

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[BHSFL]
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4 hours ago, Harvin87 said:

Hello captains!

I think you can help me out with these questions I have on new ships I have or will have in the near future.

  • Z-23 128mm guns or 150mm? Of course different reload times... is it a question of style or is there the superior option? I know the German DD guns received a penetration buff, so maybe the 128mm is enough? I mean, I always feel more confortable with hybrid DDs, that means fast or more or less fast firing guns (my favorite ships are Akizuki and Kitakaze) although I like the American DDs and also the Germans.
  • Cossack: The guns already have good penetration, is IFHE a must? 

Thanks!

 

Depends what you do with it......150 mm on lower tier German DD have a distict advantage killing concrete forts at longer range then 1,5 km in Operations. :Smile_teethhappy:   But Z23 is a tier 8......

 

It all depends what you want to hurt......

 

- All DD can shoot all* DD ( 19 mm hull ) now, without IFHE.    * 1 tier X exception as it has a strip of 50 m armour and is still a DD.

- German  DD can hurt bow, stern and casemate ( 25 mm ) plating of Cruisers too, without IFHE

- Other nations DD cannot penetrate 25 mm Cruiser/BB plating and then need IFHE. That would be Cossack as well.

- If you want to damage 27 mm Cruiser/BB plating you need IFHE for non German DD guns if they can pass that treshold at all.

- If you want to damage 32 mm BB plating will need IFHE for non German DD guns if they can pass that treshold at all.

 

Do note that if you take IFHE and penetrate plating, you do 33 % of the shells damage and that is often around ~700 damage per shell for DD caliber guns......if that area is damage saturaded ( black burned ) then you do only 16 % of shell damage. And that would be as low as ~300 per shell.

 

So you wil need a lot of hits to wear a 30.000 to 50.000 HP Cruiser down with that......probably why IFHE is ababdoned alltogether in favor of hoping for fires that do not get extinghuished. Yet for a mere lone DD to start 3-4 fires that kill a full HP Cruiser ? Unlikely if they are not specific extreme ROF gunboats that can avoid/migate retun fire.

 

That is why as DD you probably should use torpedo's against large ships though, and IFHE does give a reliable* opportunity of finishing very low HP ships off if they barely survive the torpedos.

 

*IFHE will allow a DD to hit an enemy ship everywhere and at any angle except for the armoured belt, as long as IFHE passes that platings thickness treshold. Often that is almost 90 % of the ship above the waterline where without IFHE you can only hit the superstructure ( 19 mm plating max ) that will be quickly damage saturated. ( the ~300 damage shots )

 

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Even back then IFHE was only worth it when it allowed you to penetrate the central part of enough ships within your MM bracket because that way you didn't have to deal with the saturation mechanic. You don't want to spend 4 commander skills just to penetrate some bows and sterns.

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12 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

 

Depends what you do with it......150 mm on lower tier German DD have a distict advantage killing concrete forts at longer range then 1,5 km in Operations. :Smile_teethhappy:   But Z23 is a tier 8......

 

It all depends what you want to hurt......

 

- All DD can shoot all* DD ( 19 mm hull ) now, without IFHE.    * 1 tier X exception as it has a strip of 50 m armour and is still a DD.

- German  DD can hurt bow, stern and casemate ( 25 mm ) plating of Cruisers too, without IFHE

- Other nations DD cannot penetrate 25 mm Cruiser/BB plating and then need IFHE. That would be Cossack as well.

- If you want to damage 27 mm Cruiser/BB plating you need IFHE for non German DD guns if they can pass that treshold at all.

- If you want to damage 32 mm BB plating will need IFHE for non German DD guns if they can pass that treshold at all.

 

Do note that if you take IFHE and penetrate plating, you do 33 % of the shells damage and that is often around ~700 damage per shell for DD caliber guns......if that area is damage saturaded ( black burned ) then you do only 16 % of shell damage. And that would be as low as ~300 per shell.

 

So you wil need a lot of hits to wear a 30.000 to 50.000 HP Cruiser down with that......probably why IFHE is ababdoned alltogether in favor of hoping for fires that do not get extinghuished. Yet for a mere lone DD to start 3-4 fires that kill a full HP Cruiser ? Unlikely if they are not specific extreme ROF gunboats that can avoid/migate retun fire.

 

That is why as DD you probably should use torpedo's against large ships though, and IFHE does give a reliable* opportunity of finishing very low HP ships off if they barely survive the torpedos.

 

*IFHE will allow a DD to hit an enemy ship everywhere and at any angle except for the armoured belt, as long as IFHE passes that platings thickness treshold. Often that is almost 90 % of the ship above the waterline where without IFHE you can only hit the superstructure ( 19 mm plating max ) that will be quickly damage saturated. ( the ~300 damage shots )

 

You’ve already been shut down totally in a thread about IFHE on DD’s. Please stop putting false information on the forum. 

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[LAFIE]
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Can't really go wrong with RPF on DD's these days, while IFHE is rarely worth the four points on guns this small caliber any more.

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15 hours ago, Harvin87 said:
  • Z-23 128mm guns or 150mm? Of course different reload times... is it a question of style or is there the superior option? I know the German DD guns received a penetration buff, so maybe the 128mm is enough? I mean, I always feel more confortable with hybrid DDs, that means fast or more or less fast firing guns (my favorite ships are Akizuki and Kitakaze) although I like the American DDs and also the Germans.
  • Cossack: The guns already have good penetration, is IFHE a must?

FWIW I take the larger guns on the German DDs (when available); although it's mainly a variety thing, it can be a giggle citadelling broadside cruisers. It's worth noting that I have specialist captains for the 'big gun' DDs as (as @Panocek notes) BFT is much less use on them, as the main guns are too large to benefit from the skill.

 

Cossack doesn't gain much from IFHE (especially for four points!), so I never bothered with the skill; mind you, I don't take it on the T9&10 silver ships either (and just fire AP if HE won't penetrate something)...

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