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Beastofwar

280 - 300 mm guns : AP or HE ?

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From 280 mm up you can overmatch 19 mm of armour from any angle. That means you can just penetrate every ships superstructure in the game with 280+ mm.

 

So angeling will only protect aganst citadels and bow/stern overmatches if that is 25+ mm but not make you immune to you ships HP being attacked.

 

wows 71.jpg

 

This is taken form the Odins review of LWM.

 

It indicates AP shells do far more damage penetrating plating then HE shells. Even when they do not citadel ofcourse.

 

Since you can clearly damage all ships in game with 280+ mm AP overmatching their superstructure, and those shells still do more damage when the part is damage saturated, why would you fling HE ? And especially as LWM remarks at target that won't burn very long if at all.

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You also need 47 to 51mm of armor to set off the fuse. The shell should also explode inside the ship.

 

It depends on guns, shells and target what you use.

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So AP overmatching the 19 mm superstructure does not arm the fuse and merely end in a overpenetration when it does not hit thicker armour inside the ship ? I didn't calculate with that yet...

 

Damned info about AP mechanics is all over the place as well....need to look at at least 3 different WG pages to get all the numbers.

 

That said i do notice AP causes damage spikes on angled targets from Cruiser to BB while (IF)HE merely caused chipping damage in the range of ~ 1000 damage.

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I mean, the general advice with most BB-calibre guns is to use AP, unless presented with a well-angled target that you can't overmatch and with no better targets available. Aiming AP at the superstructure of such a target is likely to give overpens, yes, and bounces for shots that hit the plating and belt with dispersion – the advantage of HE in that case is that it gives more reliable damage as it pens more parts of the ship. And can set fires.

 

Ofc you can also load AP and, instead of shooting the superstructure as such, aim for the turrets and try to incapacitate them. Some shells will like hit the superstructure in that case too. It all depends on the situation, and the learning never stops (at least, it hasn't for me!)

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20 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

It can, when the armor is sufficiently angled. At 20 degree or less the armor is thick enough.

 

Thank you....now i begin to understand what is happening with the AP damage spikes i'm seeing on angled targets.

 

But then it becomes pretty hard to decide what to use is it not ?

 

Do i shoot a target with (IF)HE for ~1100 pretty reliable damage per hitting shell on most of it's plating at any angle and a chance on a ( most often short ) burning fire,  or do i go for ~3200 damage non citadelling AP penetrations that only happen now an then as most shells bounce, shatter or hit 0 damage plating ?

 

It seems whatever you do there is RNG involved, unless you can actually get penetrating angles on citadels, which is an enemy player mistake and not a player skill ?

 

Quote

It all depends on the situation, and the learning never stops (at least, it hasn't for me!)

 

Yeah it is almost shamefull to only learn such stuff after so many battles......i got the citadelling part of AP ofcourse but used HE automaticly when i could not get a broadside.

 

Since a lot of Cruisers suffered a lot from IFHE halving fire chance i switched to firing AP more, even on angled targets......with wildly varing results from amazing ( instantly exploding Cruisers ) to poor i did not understand.

 

But now i do ( or begin to see what i was missing  to be more modest ) ....thnx to ColonelPete. :Smile_medal:

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3 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

But then it becomes pretty hard to decide what to use is it not ?

Yes, when you want to make the perfect decision for every salvo.

No, when you want to optimise your damage. Just use AP, unless you see that you cannot get through.

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9 minutes ago, TeaAndTorps said:

I mean, the general advice with most BB-calibre guns is to use AP, unless presented with a well-angled target that you can't overmatch and with no better targets available.

Unless they're British ones. :Smile_trollface:

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31 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

From 280 mm up you can overmatch 19 mm of armour from any angle. That means you can just penetrate every ships superstructure in the game with 280+ mm.

 

So angeling will only protect aganst citadels and bow/stern overmatches if that is 25+ mm but not make you immune to you ships HP being attacked.

 

wows 71.jpg

 

This is taken form the Odins review of LWM.

 

It indicates AP shells do far more damage penetrating plating then HE shells. Even when they do not citadel ofcourse.

 

Since you can clearly damage all ships in game with 280+ mm AP overmatching their superstructure, and those shells still do more damage when the part is damage saturated, why would you fling HE ? And especially as LWM remarks at target that won't burn very long if at all.

Odin did a review of LittleWhiteMouse? :cap_haloween:

 

In a battleship I almost always fire AP into the superstructure, it's rarely worth switching unless you think they will stay bow on and that no otehr broadside will become available.

As you mention, the saturation mechanic actually makes AP very viable even against very lightly armoured or damage saturated targets.

 

This is especially true of German Battleships that all have anaemic HE damage.

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Generally, depends on ship.

 

König with 305s (and this gun category should go up to 310), can overmatch same tier BBs on bow, stern and most cruisers. So shooting HE isn't really necessary. Graf Spee with the 283s is pretty crap with HE, so you try to overmatch cruisers or shoot AP at broadsides to get the pens or cits instead of the pathetic HE pen or AP overpens.

 

Supercruisers meanwhile need to keep in mind that almost no two supercruiser guns are the same. Odin, like Ägir has German HE and AP, so AP does more damage, HE less, skewing it to the point that trying to AP pen and accepting a few overpens is about as valuable as just firing HE. Stalingrad and the USN folks got improved AP pen angles and Stalingrad has a shorter fuze, so doing good damage on angled ships is still possible and Stalingrad can do high damage on unsaturated superstructure. Yoshino and Azuma meanwhile have improved HE damage, so shooting HE at targets you cannot reliably pen or citpen is much more useful.

 

Also, keep in mind, AP does more damage overpenning on saturated sections than HE would do... if HE could overpen. You have to compare the 940 to the 594 if you shoot saturated superstructure and then remember that you could shoot the HE at unsaturated sections too, for the 1188 damage. Just to show the other end of the spectrum, Yoshino would deal 865 on fully saturated overpen, while an HE pen is 1700. At that point it is kind of a no-brainer what to load.

12 minutes ago, TeaAndTorps said:

I mean, the general advice with most BB-calibre guns is to use AP, unless presented with a well-angled target that you can't overmatch and with no better targets available. Aiming AP at the superstructure of such a target is likely to give overpens, yes, and bounces for shots that hit the plating and belt with dispersion – the advantage of HE in that case is that it gives more reliable damage as it pens more parts of the ship.

 

Ofc you can also load AP and, instead of shooting the superstructure as such, aim for the turrets and try to incapacitate them. Some shells will like hit the superstructure in that case too. It all depends on the situation, and the learning never stops (at least, it hasn't for me!)

Depends also on range. If you fire Yoshino guns at a BB 15 km away, might as well load HE regardless of angle, because it's not really possible to snipe upper belt and overpens, shatters or deck ricochets aren't worth it compared to reliable pens on anything not a turret or main belt with potential fires.

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28 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Unless they're British ones. :Smile_trollface:

 

23 minutes ago, HaachamaShipping said:

Depends also on range. If you fire Yoshino guns at a BB 15 km away, might as well load HE regardless of angle, because it's not really possible to snipe upper belt and overpens, shatters or deck ricochets aren't worth it compared to reliable pens on anything not a turret or main belt with potential fires.

True – I only meant it as general advice in very broad strokes. Thanks for adding those points :Smile_honoring:

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IDK Thunderer AP tends to do hilarious things when it hits a willing target... :Smile_trollface:

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1 minute ago, Yedwy said:

IDK Thunderer AP tends to do hilarious things when it hits a willing target... :Smile_trollface:

I don't think Thunderer shells always ask for consent though.

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57 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

IDK Thunderer AP tends to do hilarious things when it hits a willing target... :Smile_trollface:

That's cause Thunderer shells actually go where you aim them and also have normal fuses so it is good to use AP on that one, with such decent AP I don't know why WG had to keep the stupid HE on it... I guess to satisfy the part of the player base that doesn't like using their brain.

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19 minutes ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

That's cause Thunderer shells actually go where you aim them and also have normal fuses so it is good to use AP on that one, with such decent AP I don't know why WG had to keep the stupid HE on it... I guess to satisfy the part of the player base that doesn't like using their brain.

Normal fuse isn't very great. At T10, all it does is give you odd freak cit on a GK at long range. People are quick to blame short fuze for the poor performance of RN BB AP, but what RN BB really has (and same can be said about the other RN ships) is crap pen. Thunderer's AP pen at range is comparable to Montana's SHS, needless to say that trying to AP cit any BB at range in a Conqueror is pretty damn disappointing with the accuracy, lack of pen and lack of shell velocity. But if you handed Thunderer a short-fuze shell, it'd still do the same it does now, just if it hits a Smolensk with AP, it'd be far more devastating.

 

I think the HE is due to the concept being based on Vanguard, but WG forgetting that the Vanguard gets 381 mm HE that has underwhelming fire chance for British BB standards, 457 mm RN BB HE is however the pinnacle of HE shells in the game. Not even Shikishima HE surpasses it.

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Short fuse is better in all situations except  layered armour where the outer layer arms the shell and it detonates before reaching the citadel.

 

As far as I know, in game shell speed does not decrease as it passes through armour. even a 0.1s fuse would n't detonate until it left the armour plate even in the Kremlin.

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