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TheodorosK

DD Gunboat vs Torpedo DD

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Is there any room for the Torpedo DD in this game?

As i can see, their not much room for many players to enjoy the torpedo DD.

Any decent Gun DD will win the fight most of the time.

I believe that something needs to be done so the game is more balance from what it is now.

With torpedo reloads that exceed the 1m 30s your joy is very rare and you cannot participate to many battles unless you are lucky or an uber player.

 

My 2cents on the matter.

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Just now, TheodorosK said:

Is there any room for the Torpedo DD in this game?

As i can see, their not much room for many players to enjoy the torpedo DD.

Any decent Gun DD will win the fight most of the time.

I believe that something needs to be done so the game is more balance from what it is now.

With torpedo reloads that exceed the 1m 30s your joy is very rare and you cannot participate to many battles unless you are lucky or an uber player.

 

My 2cents on the matter.

There are no "torpedo DDs" unless you somehow lose all the guns.

 

And IJN "supposed torpedoboats" are more than adept at bringing guns to a gunfight, coupled with usual concealment advantage and pinch of using cover and/or smokes for breaking contact, they can be just nasty.

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4 minutes ago, TheodorosK said:

Any decent Gun DD will win the fight most of the time.

not if he eats a torp first. not let anyone stop you from having fun. Torping is life ;)

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4 minutes ago, TheodorosK said:

Is there any room for the Torpedo DD in this game?

As i can see, their not much room for many players to enjoy the torpedo DD. 

Any decent Gun DD will win the fight most of the time.

 

They have completly different roles in the game. You need to play them in a different way. Maybe you just personally favour gun boat DDs more, since they suite your gamestyle.

You´d agree that Chung Mu is rather a torpedo DD, right? Thats my result from last weeks. I did enjoy those games.

 

image.png.52c2d774613bb1304cee8af20ba9a03d.png

 

Also, dont mind me saying that, but your stats show, you have problems with IJN DDs in general and more problems with high tier game play. So when you take out Yugumo, both combines and its just logic, you have a bad time.

My suggestion: use the forumus to get some advice on how to play (torpedo-) DDs, go down again to T6-T8 and use the litter bit slower pace to get more experaince in how to play.

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 Shinonome, IMO is an ideal torp boat,  it's slow turret traverse speed encourages you to fight with torps rather than guns. Dunno much about IJN tech tree DDs...but Shimakaze seems more than capable of dueling 'hybrid' DDs like YY. 

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image.thumb.png.28915fecab526aa7373af5ae31cbfc47.png

 

Everything is possible. This game was just pure horror, when i had all of the enemy DDs try to hump me all the time. Luckily for me, i could outspot them, and the Black i killed with blindfire when he tried to smoke up and Radar me.

Try to trap them, so you wanna stick close to your support, and be ready to run away. If you have the spotting advantage (which torp DDs usually have), the enemy DD has to decide by rushing into the unknown or take the smaller risk by turning away or smoking up. If he follows you and manages to catch you, smoke yourself up after he shot. If you have the right angle, a teammate should keep him spotted, forcing him to pretty much smoke himself up aswell. If he does, torp his smoke and leave your own. Dont keep sitting in your own smoke for no reason.

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Get yourself a hybrid. The German and Royal Navy line are solid for that reason. They can perform both roles comfortably.

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Ofcourse there is room for them.....but with "torpedo DD'' you don't rush into contested caps but try to keep as far away from enemy DD and support Cruisers as you can. While seeking gaps where you can slip by them to find a way to plumping torpedo's into big juicy BB and CV targets. All that time your contribution to your team is lighting these BB up continiously so they can be shot by long range fire. While feeling you are completely passive ( clueless team members might mewl about that too )  it can be a match winning action if your allied BB can sink enemy BB or cruiser because of it. When remaining completely concealed you can take caps behind enemies backs aswell.

 

Stealth is what you strive for then.....not gunfighting other DD. You don't touch your guns. You don't lauch waves of torpedo's either, if they won't kill the target that sees them coming.....as everything and their mother will come hunting you, blowing any opportunity further stalking around out the window.

 

You often do stumble into enemy "torpedo DD" doing the same thing. These are not gunfighters either. Then you will have to gunfight, no choice anyway. Certainly not with deepwater torpedo DD that can't hit DD and Cruisers.

 

RDF packing DD killer DD/Cruisers are your enemy. They block your path trying to slip them by. Nothing to do but try light them up ( being concealed better ) and hope your side takes them out.

 

For example the asymetric battle mode being on the high tier so outnumbered badly.....i was enjoying killing 2 BB right in the middle of Cruisers.....DW torps.......which went well untill some Aoba started chasing downstream of the torpedo's ( hence the rule never launch waves of torpedo's at targets that will survive it as you will be hunted after that ) .... I thought i easily outrun it.....not remembering it can be actually faster with a damned flag :Smile_teethhappy:  Would i have been observing my own rules it would have endend differently as i would have killed all their BB.

 

wows 139.jpg

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16 minutes ago, Panocek said:

And IJN "supposed torpedoboats" are more than adept at bringing guns to a gunfight, coupled with usual concealment advantage and pinch of using cover and/or smokes for breaking contact, they can be just nasty.

Maybe, but I don't feel too confident about Mutsuki.

19 minutes ago, TheodorosK said:

Is there any room for the Torpedo DD in this game?

As i can see, their not much room for many players to enjoy the torpedo DD.

Any decent Gun DD will win the fight most of the time.

Don't run head first into enemy DD.

29 minutes ago, TheodorosK said:

With torpedo reloads that exceed the 1m 30s your joy is very rare and you cannot participate to many battles unless you are lucky or an uber player.

Have you ever tried to gun down a Smolensk, Nevsky, Moskva in a DD? Because I sure rather use torpedos. 

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1 hour ago, TheodorosK said:

Is there any room for the Torpedo DD in this game?

As i can see, their not much room for many players to enjoy the torpedo DD.

Any decent Gun DD will win the fight most of the time.

I believe that something needs to be done so the game is more balance from what it is now.

With torpedo reloads that exceed the 1m 30s your joy is very rare and you cannot participate to many battles unless you are lucky or an uber player.

 

My 2cents on the matter.

Torpedoboats are not made to fight gunboats, obviously. Focus on your main targets and treat other DD as targets of opportunity.

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3 hours ago, HaachamaShipping said:

Have you ever tried to gun down a Smolensk, Nevsky, Moskva in a DD? Because I sure rather use torpedos. 

I did gun down (and still try to when given the opportunity) smolensks in my Daring. Those citadel hits with AP loaded are so juicy! :cap_rambo: (the other two not so much, lol)

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1 minute ago, Hirohito said:

I did gun down (and still try to when given the opportunity) smolensks in my Daring. Those citadel hits with AP loaded are so juicy. :cap_rambo:

I did too, but requires some surprise and some potato. Have fun trying that stuff in a Gearing though.

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Take a Hybrid-DD. The Ship should be able to stealth torp and also have the best Guns that you can find.

You will need the Guns when you run into another DD or have no luck with the Torps.

British DDS or Japanese Gunboot-DDs should work.

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7 hours ago, TheodorosK said:

Is there any room for the Torpedo DD in this game?

As i can see, their not much room for many players to enjoy the torpedo DD.

Any decent Gun DD will win the fight most of the time.

I believe that something needs to be done so the game is more balance from what it is now.

With torpedo reloads that exceed the 1m 30s your joy is very rare and you cannot participate to many battles unless you are lucky or an uber player.

 

My 2cents on the matter.

Before we start - you seem to have an assumption that torpedo DDs are supposed to be able to fight against gunboats. This is not true, however - if a torpedo boat is forced into a fight against a gunboat, the latter will win almost every time unless it's already very low hp or makes a blunder while the torpedo DD happens to have torps ready. And then there are DDs that have torps literally incapable of harming other DDs (most of them are hybrids rather than dedicated torpedo carriers but there's Asashio, for example, with pretty anemic guns...)

 

So, how does balance between torpedo-focused and gun-focused DDs look? Well, the torpedo boats do some things:

1. Scare enemy big ships, in extreme cases they can paralyze the entire enemy flank before they even land any torps

2. Deal huge alpha damage to big ships (the careless ones can be very vulnerable to that)

3. Sweep smokes full of ships that believe that invisibility equals immunity (you'd be surprised how many seem to think so - when torpedo boats kill gunboats, this is how it tends to happen)

4. Spot (it's not a hard rule but torpedo focus often comes with better than typical on tier concealment)

 

Gunboats have very different roles - a mix of hunting/discouraging enemy DDs and adding a bit damage to the mix against the bigger ships. But they usually lack the true stopping power (and psychological terror factor) of a more torp-focused DD. It's harder to clearly define their role because there are actually three main approaches to "gunboating" and various vessels are suited for each to varying degree:

1. Annoying enemies by HE spam from open water, adding some damage and - no less important - drawing fire away from other targets; basically tanking, as funny as it might sound when we talk something with DD health pool

2. Chipping at enemy health with ridiculous volume of fire coming from smoke or from behind an island - DD stealth and speed make it easier to position right (compared to cruisers), most carry their own smoke AND they don't have citadels that would make them more vulnerable to blind return fire

3. Hunting enemy DDs (mostly torpedo boats but also other gunboats)

 

At the end of the day, gun-focused DDs and torpedo-focused DDs have very different roles and thus aren't well suited for direct comparison - especially when one of the major archetypes of a gunboat is a DD hunter. This doesn't mean that torpedo DDs are necessarily weak - they are just focused on other tasks. And as for whether they are enjoyable - it depends. Torpedo DDs tend to spend most of their time repositiopning, spotting and trying to grab that perfect torping angle to set up an equally perfect torping run. They require more patience and prediction than most other ships in this game and they're very situation-depended (sometimes you may struggle to contribute much even if you're pretty decent). If you lack patience to deal with it, then torpedo boats are probably not for you because you probably won't be any good with them and - perhaps more importantly for you - you most likely just won't have much fun and that's what playing a game is all about, after all.

 

PS: It's a good idea to remember that all DDs (with the exception of Friesland - no other comes to mind) have torpedoes and literally all of them feature some guns. Depending on the level of specialization, "the other weapon" might serve a supplementary role only, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't have a role.

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5 hours ago, eliastion said:

Before we start - you seem to have an assumption that torpedo DDs are supposed to be able to fight against gunboats. This is not true, however - if a torpedo boat is forced into a fight against a gunboat, the latter will win almost every time unless it's already very low hp or makes a blunder while the torpedo DD happens to have torps ready. And then there are DDs that have torps literally incapable of harming other DDs (most of them are hybrids rather than dedicated torpedo carriers but there's Asashio, for example, with pretty anemic guns...)

 

So, how does balance between torpedo-focused and gun-focused DDs look? Well, the torpedo boats do some things:

1. Scare enemy big ships, in extreme cases they can paralyze the entire enemy flank before they even land any torps

2. Deal huge alpha damage to big ships (the careless ones can be very vulnerable to that)

3. Sweep smokes full of ships that believe that invisibility equals immunity (you'd be surprised how many seem to think so - when torpedo boats kill gunboats, this is how it tends to happen)

4. Spot (it's not a hard rule but torpedo focus often comes with better than typical on tier concealment)

 

Gunboats have very different roles - a mix of hunting/discouraging enemy DDs and adding a bit damage to the mix against the bigger ships. But they usually lack the true stopping power (and psychological terror factor) of a more torp-focused DD. It's harder to clearly define their role because there are actually three main approaches to "gunboating" and various vessels are suited for each to varying degree:

1. Annoying enemies by HE spam from open water, adding some damage and - no less important - drawing fire away from other targets; basically tanking, as funny as it might sound when we talk something with DD health pool

2. Chipping at enemy health with ridiculous volume of fire coming from smoke or from behind an island - DD stealth and speed make it easier to position right (compared to cruisers), most carry their own smoke AND they don't have citadels that would make them more vulnerable to blind return fire

3. Hunting enemy DDs (mostly torpedo boats but also other gunboats)

 

At the end of the day, gun-focused DDs and torpedo-focused DDs have very different roles and thus aren't well suited for direct comparison - especially when one of the major archetypes of a gunboat is a DD hunter. This doesn't mean that torpedo DDs are necessarily weak - they are just focused on other tasks. And as for whether they are enjoyable - it depends. Torpedo DDs tend to spend most of their time repositiopning, spotting and trying to grab that perfect torping angle to set up an equally perfect torping run. They require more patience and prediction than most other ships in this game and they're very situation-depended (sometimes you may struggle to contribute much even if you're pretty decent). If you lack patience to deal with it, then torpedo boats are probably not for you because you probably won't be any good with them and - perhaps more importantly for you - you most likely just won't have much fun and that's what playing a game is all about, after all.

 

PS: It's a good idea to remember that all DDs (with the exception of Friesland - no other comes to mind) have torpedoes and literally all of them feature some guns. Depending on the level of specialization, "the other weapon" might serve a supplementary role only, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't have a role.

Very well worded.

 

Only to add that some DD are in fact small Cruisers that are just classed "DD" with DD consumables and typical DD armour on them for game purposes. These will shred real DD and even light (support) Cruisers.

 

Arguably when looking at the Atlanta and it's HP/armour one cannot escape the notion this is an oversized DD. Wikipedia more or less confirms that:

 

The Atlanta-class ships were lightly armored, making them poor surface combatants compared to a typical light cruiser. In terms of armament, the Atlanta class was closer to a destroyer, being armed with 5-inch guns, than a light cruiser, which were generally equipped with 6-inch guns; but at well over 500 feet (152 m) in length, and combined with their large battery of sixteen 5-inch (127 mm) guns (reduced to twelve in number for later ships of the class), they were designated as light cruisers. Typical destroyers of the time only carried five or six 5-inch guns.[citation needed] Despite being under-armored for light cruisers, they had thicker armor than destroyers, which were notoriously underprotected.

 

 

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9 hours ago, HaachamaShipping said:

I did too, but requires some surprise and some potato. Have fun trying that stuff in a Gearing though.

Gearing and Daring have similar AP and HE damage outputs. Gearing AP have higher penetration, main limiting factor on UK 113mm guns.

 

Both require almost perfect broadside, but one can do it without sitting within Smolensk hydro range.

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13 hours ago, TheodorosK said:

Is there any room for the Torpedo DD in this game?

As i can see, their not much room for many players to enjoy the torpedo DD.

Any decent Gun DD will win the fight most of the time.

I believe that something needs to be done so the game is more balance from what it is now.

With torpedo reloads that exceed the 1m 30s your joy is very rare and you cannot participate to many battles unless you are lucky or an uber player.

 

My 2cents on the matter.

Torpedo focused dds teach you patience and to choose your battles, while gunboat dds can lead to tunnelvision when contesting cap and an early death. That doesnt mean a shima shouldn't use their guns or a gunboat dd show caution, it all depends on the situation. Ive recived reports for using guns on my shima :)

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19 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Gearing and Daring have similar AP and HE damage outputs. Gearing AP have higher penetration, main limiting factor on UK 113mm guns.

 

Both require almost perfect broadside, but one can do it without sitting within Smolensk hydro range.

UK 113s do get improved pen angle though.

 

Also, I have to correct myself, I didn't kill a Smol in Daring, because I don't have Daring. It was 1 am. I killed Smol in Grozovoi. But still, compared to just flooding the smoke screen with torps, feels somewhat high risk.

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1 minute ago, HaachamaShipping said:

UK 113s do get improved pen angle though.

 

Also, I have to correct myself, I didn't kill a Smol in Daring, because I don't have Daring. It was 1 am. I killed Smol in Grozovoi. But still, compared to just flooding the smoke screen with torps, feels somewhat high risk.

Improved angles matters little, when shell fails to penetrate. And 113mm AP can rather consistently fail to pen 27-32mm hull platings past 9km when angled. Not ricochet, fail to pen:Smile_smile:

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Torpedo focused DDs are double victims of CV rework and poor AA skills in general. 

1. They have poor AA themselves and are at risc of detection and focus fire by CV and his team. 

2. Since AA skills are useless most players take hydro instead of Def AA, often combined with vigilance making main weapon of those DDs ineffective.

On the top of this all many times also CV with his planes has made my targed to avoid my torps by forcing him to turn just by flying there. So he ate one tiny CV torp for 3k of damage instead of a few IJN torps that could have devastated him. 

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DD play is still viable... Whether it be Torpedo or Gun; let's face it nearly all DD's carry Torpedoes...

 

Know your enemy, know their Hydro ranges, know their radar ranges and they can never catch you. With RL you will know where the enemy is if you pay attention to detail. Use the Mini Map as this WILL keep you alive...

 

Even with a CV the game is not as hopeless for you as you might think, the minute the aircraft comes your way (Indicated from the Mini Map) turn and head for your nearest ally until the aircraft move away then resume your action (Better to be alive to come back than pigheaded and dead), AA off makes it even harder for the CV to find you and if he finds you AA back on, sector priority, and then move with the aircraft..

Be the eyes of the team if you cannot get close for the kill and cap when it is safe to do so...

 

Above all things understand your concealment and use it... Too many times you see DD's with 5.6km or less concealment firing their torpedoes from 8km or more.... 8km is a massive waste of torpedoes.

 

Example: If you're attacking a GK match the turns and stay beyond 6km range and launch only at the Broadside.

If you're attacking Wooster then it's 10km and watch out for the radar...

 

In my Kitakaze, my Haragumo, my Halland I love attacking ships like JB and Izumo... stay on their rear beyond their secondary range, match their turns and HE their [edited]to extinction.... For example if the JB turns to the port side you turn starboard then to port and he can never get his main guns on you. If you also zoom in you can see the angles of their main guns which is also a factor many DD captains ignore...

 

In my Shimakaze, Yugumo, Kagero it's in close (Usually between 6.5km-7km) fire and run... If I am TRB equipped fire twice. I like 8km torps @ 86 knots on Yugumo and Shima... regardless of the targets detection skills they never fail to hit.

The beauty about close in attacks is that if you can see the way that their main guns point you can usually attack the opposite side in relative safety..

 

Unless I have the advantage, enemy DD's are targets of necessity only.

 

The only thing that is bad, as a DD player, is the fact you do not know the team you play with... if they are morons it doesn't matter a jot how well you play.

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

The only thing that is bad, as a DD player, is the fact you do not know the team you play with... if they are morons it doesn't matter a jot how well you play.

I must strongly disagree. DDs are arguably the most influential class, second maybe only to CVs (if they are any good) - mostly because the latter are such a pain in the butt for DDs, in fact. If you find yourself in a match where you are unable to affect the outcome in a DD, then being in another class it would probably be even worse.

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15 hours ago, Panocek said:

There are no "torpedo DDs" unless you somehow lose all the guns.

In my definition Shimakaze and Somers are Torpedo DDs. Harugumo, Kleber and Khabarosk are gun DDs, and most others are Hybrid DDs with decent torpedos and guns (for T10)

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The amount of people who are saying not to use guns on their DD’s is frankly worrying. But also no surprise. Explains why so many people fail in DD’s. They have guns for a reason. Use them. 

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19 minutes ago, eliastion said:

I must strongly disagree. DDs are arguably the most influential class, second maybe only to CVs (if they are any good) - mostly because the latter are such a pain in the butt for DDs, in fact. If you find yourself in a match where you are unable to affect the outcome in a DD, then being in another class it would probably be even worse.

I agree DD's are influential, they are a crucial factor for victory, but in a team of twelve players the influence means nothing if the other team members don't do their part...

Unless of course you're going to tell me a single DD can be everywhere, do everything, sink every enemy opponent, on their own?

 

I mean if some BB captain hasn't figured it out by Tier X that he needs to eliminate enemy radar ships or a Cruiser captain doesn't use his radar or a CV Captain just heads off for glory not even bothering to spot enemy DD's... a DD's role is not what you'd call influential.

 

The DD has great importance ONLY IF his team has intelligence... beyond that the DD will either die fast or enjoy watching his team die.

 

 

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