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Admiral_Oily_Discharge

On sniping cvs >=25km

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Greetings ,

I wanted to ask other bb mains  if they aim at water line at such huge range ? For me I have launched multiple salvos at enemy cvs at waterline and if they dont change course they get obliterated with multiple citadel hits that they become pretty much useless for entire game or they get dev striked . Aiming high on deck armor or main armor belt hasnt yielded as fruitful results also not to mention many cvs have 50 mm deck armor. I have talked to other very experienced members in game dm but none of them supported the notion of aiming for waterline at this long range .What are your thoughts about this shall be held on high regards .

 

Many thanks...

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5 minutes ago, Admiral_Oily_Discharge said:

Greetings ,

I wanted to ask other bb mains  if they aim at water line at such huge range ? For me I have launched multiple salvos at enemy cvs at waterline and if they dont change course they get obliterated with multiple citadel hits that they become pretty much useless for entire game or they get dev striked . Aiming high on deck armor or main armor belt hasnt yielded as fruitful results also not to mention many cvs have 50 mm deck armor. I have talked to other very experienced members in game dm but none of them supported the notion of aiming for waterline at this long range .What are your thoughts about this shall be held on high regards .

 

Many thanks...

Why are you doubting your results?

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8 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Why are you doubting your results? 

Very interesting question . The thing is there is quite a difference of opinions with respect to aforementioned subject aint it ?

 

Edit -Howevar personally I  consider you a very high and based member xd

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Well if you hit at the waterline or near it you will get cits, if you hit deck you wont, OFC you will aim at the waterline, now RNGesus will decide where they land...

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It depends a lot on the shooting ship and the target ship. Low penetration guns vs strong armored ship, you shoot the at waterline (narrower target profile) , to be able to pen. The opposite, high pen guns vs weak armor you shoot a bit higher, not to overpen (thicker target profile).

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13 hours ago, Admiral_Oily_Discharge said:

Greetings ,

I wanted to ask other bb mains  if they aim at water line at such huge range ? For me I have launched multiple salvos at enemy cvs at waterline and if they dont change course they get obliterated with multiple citadel hits that they become pretty much useless for entire game or they get dev striked . Aiming high on deck armor or main armor belt hasnt yielded as fruitful results also not to mention many cvs have 50 mm deck armor. I have talked to other very experienced members in game dm but none of them supported the notion of aiming for waterline at this long range .What are your thoughts about this shall be held on high regards .

 

Many thanks...

 

I assume you want to overmatch the 21 mm side hangar plating and then penetrate the internal 38 mm middle of the citadel roof plating ? That could be possible when the shell would be incoming at > 45 degrees.

 

image.thumb.png.c50ffbe8c496f6ab7cb4a91a7aca72e3.png

 

Question is : can you get >45 degrees from long range fire ? It seems WG wiki info suggests you need > 30 yards/ >27 km for it.......closer and the shots will auto-bounce on anything they cannot overmatch.

 

image.png.fd78d211bb223e45c0a554d6eceb0b57.png

 

 

 

When shells come in at a flatter trajectory then 45 degrees they may overmatch the 19 mm hangar plating but bounce on the citadel roof edge.

 

wows 123.jpg

 

Or when slightly higher aimed the armoured deck. Note that 32 mm ( the outer edges are 38 mm ) is enough to bounce - almost -all shells when they do not fall from >45 degrees.

 

image.thumb.png.aed71a963871f94d92977970bc46f4af.png

 

This citadel penetration seems possible with flat trajectory slightly below the waterline aiming ( it will hit the water and activate the fuse ) .....but not long range due to the very flat angle you will need.

 

wows 127.jpg

 

But it does seem to be sheer impossible to hit the thinnest armoured part under water with (long range) shells.

 

 

wows 129.jpg

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Well, good luck on that - it might work only on the Japanese CVs, since the US is based on a battlecruiser.

And the Brits were heavily armoured... so were the (well, was the one) German CV. 

Lower tier CVs were based on cruisers and even freighters. But low tier BB guns do not reach that far, usually. 

 

But you could try hitting Ranger with guns from North Carolina, which actually works. 

Also on Ryujo - but not on Ark Royal. You'll not get citadels from that one unless up close. 

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9 hours ago, Yedwy said:

Well if you hit at the waterline or near it you will get cits, if you hit deck you wont, OFC you will aim at the waterline, now RNGesus will decide where they land...

True . What do you think on a scale of 1-10 how much rng plays a role (assuming you aim at waterline and your target doesnt change course while sniping them)

9 hours ago, 22cm said:

It depends a lot on the shooting ship and the target ship. Low penetration guns vs strong armored ship, you shoot the at waterline (narrower target profile) , to be able to pen. The opposite, high pen guns vs weak armor you shooyt a bit higher, not to overpen (thicker target profile).

I am talking about sniping higher tier cvs at >=25 km so obviously I am talking about high tier IJN bbs  so guns do have insane penetration at pretty much all ranges :)

4 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Well, good luck on that - it might work only on the Japanese CVs, since the US is based on a battlecruiser.

And the Brits were heavily armoured... so were the (well, was the one) German CV. 

Lower tier CVs were based on cruisers and even freighters. But low tier BB guns do not reach that far, usually. 

 

But you could try hitting Ranger with guns from North Carolina, which actually works.  

Also on Ryujo - but not on Ark Royal. You'll not get citadels from that one unless up close.  

Its quite easy to devastate broadside audacious at any ranges.

8 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

I assume you want to overmatch the 21 mm side hangar plating and then penetrate the internal 38 mm middle of the citadel roof plating ? That could be possible when the shell would be incoming at > 45 degrees.

I have seen that pen chart you gave and other charts wher it shows pen values at various ranges and  appreciate your time and effort to compile that long informative post . Now this might be a noob question but you see shikishima needs 100 mm of armor for them fuse to activate . So if you aim at 25 mm of armor at petro  for example its bow or slavas bow or any other cruiser or 32 mm bow of certain bbs , I do get penetration damage now take a look at this chart Shiki gets 735 mm of penetration at 5km so if I hit a target with 32 mm bow at 5km (broadside targe ) why do I get pen damage and no overpens when shiki shells have pen of 735mm at 5 km ? can u pls explain this .

 

Screenshot_2020-09-02 WoWS Fitting Tool.png

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57 minutes ago, Admiral_Oily_Discharge said:

I am talking about sniping higher tier cvs at >=25 km so obviously I am talking about high tier IJN bbs  so guns do have insane penetration at pretty much all ranges :)

Penetration still decreases with range. 

 

At such a long distance, accurately aiming for a specific part of the target is hard, because of the dispersion, shell flight time, target movement. You can download a zooming mode and try it on a stationary bot in training room mode, to answer your own question. 

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1 hour ago, Admiral_Oily_Discharge said:

True . What do you think on a scale of 1-10 how much rng plays a role (assuming you aim at waterline and your target doesnt change course while sniping them)

Well on those distances one can expect 1-2 cits from a well aimed salvo, this usually means 9-12 shells went down range and 4-6 hit overall I dont really know how to put it in the 1-10 scale in that sence but I guess I would say about 5 or therabout...

 

Ofc sometimes you get more cits either due to RNG or you ship being extraordinarily accurate but we are talking some high tier BB average example I guess...

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28 minutes ago, 22cm said:

At such a long distance, accurately aiming for a specific part of the target is hard, because of the dispersion, shell flight time, target movement

Imo one can still master it with enough practice and time :D

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4 hours ago, Admiral_Oily_Discharge said:

True . What do you think on a scale of 1-10 how much rng plays a role (assuming you aim at waterline and your target doesnt change course while sniping them)

I am talking about sniping higher tier cvs at >=25 km so obviously I am talking about high tier IJN bbs  so guns do have insane penetration at pretty much all ranges :)

Its quite easy to devastate broadside audacious at any ranges.

I have seen that pen chart you gave and other charts wher it shows pen values at various ranges and  appreciate your time and effort to compile that long informative post . Now this might be a noob question but you see shikishima needs 100 mm of armor for them fuse to activate . So if you aim at 25 mm of armor at petro  for example its bow or slavas bow or any other cruiser or 32 mm bow of certain bbs , I do get penetration damage now take a look at this chart Shiki gets 735 mm of penetration at 5km so if I hit a target with 32 mm bow at 5km (broadside targe ) why do I get pen damage and no overpens when shiki shells have pen of 735mm at 5 km ? can u pls explain this .

 

Screenshot_2020-09-02 WoWS Fitting Tool.png

Your chart is an overview of penetration in mm at a given range assuming an incoming angle of 45-90 degrees. It does not state overmatch values.

 

 

Penetration means hitting a surface at anywhere from 45 degrees up to 90 degrees ( perpendicular angle ) relative a flat surface. Some AP shells may reliably penetrate from a much flatter 30 degrees incoming ( they get special treatment from WG )

 

Overmatching means the shell diameter allows to penetrate anyway, even if the angle should have bounced it. Currently only Yamato. Mushashi can overmatch 32 mm. Shikshima can overmatch 35 mm. So no gun in game  can overmatch the CV's armoured deck or it's citadel roof on their thinnest armour parts : 38 mm. Since the other WG chart says you need more then 27 km to get a 45 degree angle.

 

So you shoot a too shallow an angle ( 25 km is still too close )  to reliably penetrate and you cannot overmatch since you face > 35 mm armour.

 

All that said you are right in angle flatter then 45 degrees up to 30 degrees for non-special treatment AP shells may still penetrate, but not reliably as they may also bounce. So it is possible to still citadel this CV provided the shells penetrate or overmatch the 21 mm side hangar plating and then penetrate the internal citadel roof ( my 1st picture ) with an RNG factor when they come in more shallow then 45 degrees, but sharper angle then 30 degrees.

 

So your aswer is : yes, you can citadel a CV from 25 km range. But it will be a "casino salvo" based on you cannot get a 45 degree angle to realibaly penetrate but you may if you can come in at above 30 degrees. That is probably why you rarely if at all see this happeing. Then again probably not many try either.....

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Your chart is an overview of penetration in mm at a given range assuming an incoming angle of 45-90 degrees. It does not state overmatch values.

 

 

Penetration means hitting a surface at anywhere from 45 degrees up to 90 degrees ( perpendicular angle ) relative a flat surface. Some AP shells may reliably penetrate from a much flatter 30 degrees incoming ( they get special treatment from WG )

 

Overmatching means the shell diameter allows to penetrate anyway, even if the angle should have bounced it. Currently only Yamato. Mushashi can overmatch 32 mm. Shikshima can overmatch 35 mm. So no gun in game  can overmatch the CV's armoured deck or it's citadel roof on their thinnest armour parts : 38 mm. Since the other WG chart says you need more then 27 km to get a 45 degree angle. 

 

So you shoot a too shallow an angle ( 25 km is still too close )  to reliably penetrate and you cannot overmatch since you face > 35 mm armour.

  

All that said you are right in angle flatter then 45 degrees up to 30 degrees for non-special treatment AP shells may still penetrate, but not reliably as they may also bounce. So it is possible to still citadel this CV provided the shells penetrate or overmatch the 21 mm side hangar plating and then penetrate the internal citadel roof ( my 1st picture ) with an RNG factor when they come in more shallow then 45 degrees, but sharper angle then 30 degrees. 

 

 

very well put buddy **crowd whistles and applaud*

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3 minutes ago, Admiral_Oily_Discharge said:

very well put buddy **crowd whistles and applaud*

 

A friend of mine insist armour calculations do not really happen : it is just shooting at a target's HP pool with totally RNG results.

 

Playing the game as it is, who says he is wrong ? :Smile_teethhappy:

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4 hours ago, Admiral_Oily_Discharge said:

Its quite easy to devastate broadside audacious at any ranges.

Never happened to me at 20km, and I never managed to do it either. Then again I have Audacious maybe 2 weeks now. 

DID happen to me in the IJN carrier. Then again... here's Lexington at very close range. Quite sturdy. 

But Lexi is supposed to be a battlecruiser anyway. 

Spoiler

 

 

 

But the topic starter was about > 20 km SNIPING, I do not see that happening. 

@Beastofwar (his friend, actually) might be correct here, at 20km, what matters most - RNG or calculations?

11 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

A friend of mine insist armour calculations do not really happen : it is just shooting at a target's HP pool with totally RNG results.

 

Playing the game as it is, who says he is wrong ? :Smile_teethhappy:

 

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1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

So your aswer is : yes, you can citadel a CV from 25 km range. But it will be a "casino salvo" based on you cannot get a 45 degree angle to realibaly penetrate but you may if you can come in at above 30 degrees. That is probably why you rarely if at all see this happeing. Then again probably not many try either.....

Given slowest hightier BB gun, 406 MK6 found on North Carolina and South Dakota classes merely "stop ricocheting" at 21km, on any other gun with higher shell velocity you will probably run out of map to achieve "deck penetrations".

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2 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

A friend of mine insist armour calculations do not really happen : it is just shooting at a target's HP pool with totally RNG results.

Supremacy of rng could render every skill useless .

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Never happened to me at 20km, and I never managed to do it either. Then again I have Audacious maybe 2 weeks now. 

Its matter of time brother good luk :)

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8 minutes ago, Admiral_Oily_Discharge said:

Supremacy of rng could render every skill useless .

Its matter of time brother good luk :)

To both remarks, one fits: I guess the daily dose of sheep for RNGesus is one of the main things in this game anyway. 

I'll make sure to send a jar of superlube with it just to make sure. :Smile_trollface: 

 

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That is the wonderous way WOWS works for total newbees and expert players alike : both shoot at targets and both damage them.

 

One without knowing what he does, but RNG does not care or so the player thinks.....He will probably naturally prefer to fire on broadside presented targets too because they are simply larger and easier to hit targets..... Some hits will spike and some do nothing.

 

The other knowing what he does, but RNG works against him....Some hits hit as intended, most do not due to dispersion, accuracy and shell angles below 45 degrees ( closer then 27 km )

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You aim for the center waterline of the aircraft carrier. Deck armor of tier X and some tier VIII carriers is thick enough to prevent overmatch.

At ranges of 22km and more you start penning he deck due to fall angle of shells, so it would make sense to aim *slightly* above waterline.

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