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Beastofwar

Is secondary manual aiming a fake skill or does WG give specific ships drunken AI gunners ?

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When testing out of curiouslty how effective AI gunners are - all with manual aiming skill - i found extreme differences. Up to a point i think it is a fake skill and ship paramaters are all that matters. And completely chosen from a fantasy reality.

 

I used training rooms and a bot Benson at DD fighting ranges ( ~6 km ) every time. I understand killing times can vary due to factors such as fires being ignited but they are rough estimates.

 

Massachussets :  28 seconds ( only Le Terrible with  reload booster activated beat it by a mere 6 seconds (!)

KII : 47 seconds ( Kagero was 4 seconds faster  )

Odin : 60 seconds ( Z39 was 19 seconds faster )

Alabama :  82 seconds ( Benson was 38 seconds faster )

Vanguard :  94 seconds (  Lightning is 49 seconds faster )

Roma 97 seconds

Champagne* : 104 seconds ( Le Terrible was 82  seconds faster )

 

* Now look at this secondary battery...is there any logic in it taking more then 3 x as long as Massachussets to kill the same target ?? They just wildly spray around at a mere 6 km range and modules/skills to increase accuracy...which is obviously not happening.

 

wows 64.jpg

 

I begin to understand why ship reviewers like LWM totally disregard secondary guns on ships they test. If it is not a specific ship gimmick then they are useless despite the very costly captain skils ( BFT, AFT and manual secondaries ) which are then useless as well.

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8 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

When testing out of curiouslty how effective AI gunners are - all with manual aiming skill - i found extreme differences. Up to a point i think it is a fake skill and ship paramaters are all that matters.

 

I used training rooms and a bot Benson every time. I understand killing times can vary due to factors such as fires being ignited but they are rough estimates.

 

Massachussets :  28 seconds ( only Le Terrible with  relaod booster activated beat it by a mere 6 seconds (!)

KII : 47 seconds ( Kagero was 4 seconds faster  )

Odin : 60 seconds ( Z39 was 19 seconds faster )

Alabama :  82 seconds ( Benson was 38 seconds faster )

Vanguard :  94 seconds (  Lightning is 49 seconds faster )

Roma 97 seconds

Champagne* : 104 seconds ( Le Terrible was 82  seconds faster )

 

* Now look at this secondary battery...is there any logic in it taking more then 3 x as long as Massachussets to kill the same target ??

 

wows 64.jpg

referring ur question, it doesnt matter how long it takes, as in doubt all these ships have different dmg profiles on their sec shells (pen, dmg, etc.). what does matter is the ammount of hits in a set timeframe.... just sayin'^^. if it's all inbetween a certain treshhold it's all fine "praise rngeesus". well, if not u might be on something there.

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There is no logic to it, but Massa has built-in buffed secondary accuracy which makes her an outlier, so that explains that.

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Ofc the ship in question matters, as some have artificially enhanced dispersion, like Massa.

 

image.png.b24ec42dee1c5978e8898486e38c9129.png

 

Left Massa, right Champagne.

Massa secondaries have less dispersion at 7,5km than Champagnes at 7km.

Also, the smaller caliber guns cant pen benson (17<19mm). The bigger ones only shoot every 12 seconds. If you feel like it, try Champagne with IFHE, that should give it an enormous boost.

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Keep also in mind: It's HE. And with good accuracy on close ranges the secondary battery will hit more or less the same spot over and over again (center of mass), thus saturating the section of the enemy ship. Could explain why Champagne took a bit longer.

 

Overall: Secondaries are for fun fireworks most of the time (to a point where I'd say, one could even ditch them altogether and only keep them on a very selected ships). If secondaries would be usefull overall, BB's need a different downside.

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5 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Also, the smaller caliber guns cant pen benson (17<19mm).

Makes you wonder why they installed 24 100 mm barrels on a ship, if the only thing they could reliably damage were rubber dinghys and seagulls.

 

Yeah I know – it's just a game. ;)

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32 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Also, the smaller caliber guns cant pen benson (17<19mm). The bigger ones only shoot every 12 seconds. If you feel like it, try Champagne with IFHE, that should give it an enormous boost.

 

So that is part of the problem......T8 DD begin to have 19 mm hulls and only the 152 mm Champagne guns could penetrate all parts of the DD.....if they hit.....that is the same for Roma ofcourse which rediculous 90 mm secondaries can never penetrate 19 mm, even with IFHE.

 

With just the purple ribbons that give no specific information it is hard to see what is happening, but the 19 mm hull makes perfect sense ofcourse. Totally missed that.

 

But if Champagnes secondaries are "redeemable" with IFHE, the ones on German, British an any other US BB still dissappoint as they could penetrate already. Although a HE salvo with the BB main guns probably makes up for the 40 seconds of difference of the secondary battery to real DD main guns.

 

Still it is redeculous that often 2-3x as many DD caliber and even Cruiser caliber guns take 2-3x as long as real DD main guns to kill a DD target. Except for Massachussets that rather seems unnerfed instead of buffed.....

 

What accuracy ( or buff to accuracy what a full secondary build is supposed to be  )  is that ?

 

But i am happy forum members could bring some logic to these unlogic results. :Smile_medal:

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With Manual Secondaries your Secondaries Gunners become more Accurate. This allows you to Hit Ships at long Range reliable with the Secondaries. Even small DDs

Without Manual Secondaries your Secondaries will miss the Target more often and work more as a Deterrence at long Range against DDs

You can call that drunk but that is Nothing compared to the Secondary Gunners back in 2015/16.

Back then Secondary Gunners just fired all over the Map and no one bothered with Secondary Builds except some People with a Warspite that end up with an all Secondary-Teamkill.

 

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As with every build, it will only work on a proper ship. Not every bb(actually most) has good secondaries. If you don't have a good base secondary, the skills won't benefit you in any way. Secondaries are like main guns, you just can't control them. They have different calibre, range, reload, accuracy, fire chance, fire angles etc.:

Massa, for example, has an improved Accuracy patter, which makes it a very effective secondary ship, while champagne dispersion is way worse. 

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25 minutes ago, firerider202 said:

As with every build, it will only work on a proper ship. Not every bb(actually most) has good secondaries. If you don't have a good base secondary, the skills won't benefit you in any way. Secondaries are like main guns, you just can't control them. They have different calibre, range, reload, accuracy, fire chance, fire angles etc.:

Massa, for example, has an improved Accuracy patter, which makes it a very effective secondary ship, while champagne dispersion is way worse. 

 

So you don't think it is strange a Cruiser can (almost) beat German BB in killing a DD with only it's secondaries ? It took 62 seconds.

 

With a Cruiser  you will be aiming and firing your main guns with proper munitions loaded on that DD target, actually not needing secondaries to assist. If they already manage to get a hit on the DD before it is destroyed at all.

 

With the (ultra) slow turret traverse times  on some BB, with AP loaded and generally 30 seconds of reload that they need secondaries to hit DD targets much more. Certainly when a DD pops up at the other side of where that B B is pointing it's guns. As a DD player i use that BB weakness for torpedo attacks so close it cannot evade them. And since stock secondaries spray all over the place....

 

 

 

 

wows 65.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

So you don't think it is strange a Cruiser can (almost) beat German BB in killing a DD with only it's secondaries ?

 

 

 

 

wows 65.jpg

Try Pensacola, for some reason it has enhanced secondary dispersion, even better than Massachusetts.

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3 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

So you don't think it is strange a Cruiser can (almost) beat German BB in killing a DD with only it's secondaries ? It took 62 seconds.

And Odin has like the crappiest amount of secondary guns that do German HE damage. Comparing cruiser secondaries of any cruiser with decent secondary armament with Odin in how fast they kill a DD within 6 km range is basically just silly and ignores that the only redeeming factors of Odin's secondaries are 32 mm pen (pointless vs DD) and 11.6 km range (pointless at 6 km). Maybe we'd find it strange if a Cheshire manages to get secondary kills on BBs at 11 km faster than Odin does, but well, it does not...

 

Also, why is it that one of the most vocal proponents of this type of armaments on these boards time and time again shows an absolute lack of knowledge about the armament?

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Secondaries are not consistent in the game. The same guns acquire different traits on different ships, at least in some cases. If you look at the IJN BB, you will see that a bunch of those ships use the 127mm Type 89 A1 AA guns as secondaries, and on every ship the default reload time is 5 seconds - only on Amagi, those very same guns inexplicably suffer from a reload time of 6 seconds.

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