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Beastofwar

Secondary lazyness

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When looking in detail ( quite facinating ) American secondary guns are in fact many different versions of gun only sharing the caliber. The lenght of the barrel influences muzzle velocity and up to that detail the guns stats remain correct : they differ with each version.

 

But then comes what higher muzzle velocity should be doing : increase range and/or penetration. ( i am corrected in that variation in HE penetration would come from heavier shells containing more explosive from heavier 127 mm guns and less explosive containing lighter shells from lighter 127 mm guns )  But that is not happening......the penetration of ALL 127 mm guns is set to 21 mm. Range varies wildly with what flavor WG deems fit to give the ship.

 

This is rather rediculous looking at some guns.....especially the long barreled 127 mm / 50's found on  T5 to T7 Battleships are HUGE naval guns ( look at real pictures ) and a deck above you can clearly see much more compact guns which are also 127 mm ( /25's ) but could not ever have the same characteristics as they are clearly much more compact guns visibly meant for AA role.

 

These 127 mm / 50 are HUGE naval guns with very solid looking manual loading breeches.

 

image.png.199822972ba63c9b394f834fb12b09f4.png

image.thumb.png.c4cd6b2369c5426583e26bbcb58e1a61.png

 

While these much more compact/smaller 127 mm /25 are (much more) AA guns. Yet they cause the same damage and penetration.

 

 

image.png.238d1a1a323026355f9e222f96701a82.png

 

image.png.454021f6becbd1942593761dc6073dfa.png

 

 

The only thing different about all these guns seems to be rate of fire and fire chance.

 

I respect the probable reasons for simplifying these guns to 21 mm no matter what guns type it is. But i do think secondary batteries deserve better game mechanics with respect to what kind of guns they are. Not simply "a bunch of small broomsticks that cause fire at short range"  or even worse "short range flaming  fluid nozzles" meant only to set BB on fire.  Real secondary batteries were to defend against small and fast targets like Torpedo boats, Destroyers and light Cruisers.

 

Then again they don't have to be short range BB flamethrowers as hey can penetrate up to 26 mm with IFHE. It seems what the differences in the heavier or lighter versions cannot do, the player can with a captain skill.

 

The various guns :

 

wows 40.jpg

wows 41.jpg

wows 43.jpg

wows 44.jpg

wows 45.jpg

wows 46.jpg

 

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It's because they fire HE.

He pen is determined by the explosive power within the shell rather than the speed as regardless of how fast they travel, they detonate on impact.

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The AP penetration is different for the 127mm guns we have in the game. 

 

What you are talking about is the HE penetration, which in this game works by a simple principle, based on the caliber, to make it accessible - don't forget that you have to memorize a lot of numbers already with the current HE mechanics... 

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25 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

It's because they fire HE.

He pen is determined by the explosive power within the shell rather than the speed as regardless of how fast they travel, they detonate on impact.

 

I really don't think all these guns fire the same type of shell......the same caliber yes....but not the same shell which likely is longer/heavier with more explosives in it for the more powerful versions of the 127 mm and much smaller and lighter for the AA-type of short barreled 127 mm versions. Longer and heavier shells with more explosives in them ofcourse have more explosive penetrating power. But indeed that is not dependend on muzzle velocity by itself as kinetic munitions are.

 

And even then it makes no sense how the Massachussets has a stock range of 9 km while the exact same guns on the Alabama are a mere 6 km (!) These guns really are treated as either usefull ( if as fire throwers for most ) or completely useless.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

I really don't think all these guns fire the same type of shell......the same caliber yes....but not the same shell which probably is longer/heavier with more explosives in it.

What he said makes sense, if it explodes on impact, right at the moment it touches a surface, HE shell speed does not matter. For AP shells, speed would matter. 

 

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7 minutes ago, 22cm said:

What he said makes sense, if it explodes on impact, right at the moment it touches a surface, HE shell speed does not matter. For AP shells, speed would matter. 

 

 

So we are looking at WG lazyness to properly rework what is left when secondaries still fired AP ?

 

What was wrong with some type secondaries firing  AP anyway ? Too powerful toward Cruisers or too useless against DD and BB ?

 

Now secondaries are widely regarderd as short range BB burners.....hardly doing justice to the fact they are guns and not flaming fluid nozzles.

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5 minutes ago, 22cm said:

What he said makes sense, if it explodes on impact, at the moment it touches a surface, HE shell speed does not matter. For AP shells, speed would matter. 

 

Maybe not the speed, but at least the amount of explosive. In this game though, it is simply based on the caliber.

 

But that's the thing - it is a game, not a simulation. And to be frank, the OP struggles with the current mechanics already, yet he wants them to be more complicated... 

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1 minute ago, Beastofwar said:

 

So we are looking at WG lazyness to properly rework what is left when secondaries still fired AP ?

No, it is game balance.

WG choses the values to balance the game.

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Vor 3 Minuten, ColonelPete sagte:

WG choses the values to balance the game.

giphy.gif

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You think the US 5" get's it bad? The RN 5.25 which in reality had superb range, penetration and ballistics gets bugger all range or pen. Even the Lion at T9, hardly a powerhouse, only gets 5km range. WG couldn't even be bothered to give Vanguard it's RP10 mounts and instead stuck the 15 year older mk1 guns from the KGV on.

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25 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

It's because they fire HE.

Ditto :cap_like:

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24 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

I really don't think all these guns fire the same type of shell......the same caliber yes....but not the same shell which probably is longer/heavier with more explosives in it for the more powerful versions.

 

Which is reflected in fire chance. It's literally right there in the screenshots you posted.

And if you just do a bit of research you'll realize that it is quite representative of the bursting charge these shells carried.

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9 minutes ago, The_White_Whale said:

. WG couldn't even be bothered to give Vanguard it's RP10 mounts and instead stuck the 15 year older mk1 guns from the KGV on.

On the whole what WG has done to the Royal Navy Battleships and Cruisers is waay beyond balance, Sorry just had to say, I'll get my coat :Smile_hiding:

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29 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Which is reflected in fire chance. It's literally right there in the screenshots you posted.

And if you just do a bit of research you'll realize that it is quite representative of the bursting charge these shells carried.

 

You actually have a point there. But i hate to view such weapons as short range flaming fluid nozzles to burn down BB which historically was not their purpose at all....dumbs the game down so much.

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13 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

You actually have a point there. But i hate to view such weapons as short range flaming fluid nozzles to burn down BB which historically was not their purpose at all....dumbs the game down so much.

 

I dont think anyone (or atleast the majority) would want rather good secondaries, but get mostly useless main battery guns instead. You see, you cant really demand secondary guns to be equally useful as DD/CL guns because they have the same caliber, while the main battery guns perform like 10x better than they did IRL. Imagine the frustration, if your hitrate with BBs would be ~3%, just to get secondaries working against DDs/Cruisers. BBs would basicly turn into bots...

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27 minutes ago, The_White_Whale said:

The RN 5.25 which in reality had superb range, penetration and ballistics gets bugger all range or pen. Even the Lion at T9, hardly a powerhouse, only gets 5km range. WG couldn't even be bothered to give Vanguard it's RP10 mounts and instead stuck the 15 year older mk1 guns from the KGV on.

The 5.25 was never really that good. Not fast-firing enough to be a good AA weapon, not powerful enough to be a good anti-surface weapon (there was never an AP shell as it was felt the gun lacked penetration). Andrew Cunningham (when he became First Sea Lord) cancelled an entire line of cruiser development based on the 5.25 inch gun because of his dislike of the Dido class ships compared to the Leanders and Arethusas. By the end of WW2 the RN has become focused around the 4.5 inch gun as the AA/secondary weapon of choice, and that would make a perfectly decent high tier DP gun (it was on the 1944 Lion design)

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1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

the Massachussets has a stock range of 9 km

giphy.gif

 

can I get one of those massas? 

clearly it is better than mine...

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1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

What was wrong with some type secondaries firing  AP anyway ? Too powerful toward Cruisers or too useless against DD and BB ?

A lot of secondary guns which fired AP in real life used to do so in the game as well. They were completely useless and the change to HE was a welcome Buff. Damage is much better and fires add to it.

 

Problem with AP was the way the AI aims (waterline / Center) so basically everything shattered 

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24 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

The 5.25 was never really that good. Not fast-firing enough to be a good AA weapon, not powerful enough to be a good anti-surface weapon (there was never an AP shell as it was felt the gun lacked penetration). Andrew Cunningham (when he became First Sea Lord) cancelled an entire line of cruiser development based on the 5.25 inch gun because of his dislike of the Dido class ships compared to the Leanders and Arethusas. By the end of WW2 the RN has become focused around the 4.5 inch gun as the AA/secondary weapon of choice, and that would make a perfectly decent high tier DP gun (it was on the 1944 Lion design)

 

Cunningham, while a great man and leader, was a bit old fashioned he pushed away from a fair few modern developements in favour of a more old fashioned Nelsonian thinking. While it certainly wasn't fast firing the 5.25" was certainly powerful for calibre, with a max range of 21.5km and pen rivalling some 6" guns. It's main ammo was SAP, which is what the RN favoured, the RN 6" and 8" guns were SAP, even the 14" of the KGV was a hybrid AP/SAP. That's a doctrine choice. Asides from the ROF the gun had excellent performance, and the larger shell proved a solid conversion for VT fusing later on. The 'It was a garbage gun' thing is more of a modern myth that grows each time it gets recirculated in the forums.

 

A lot of designs switched to the excellent 4.5 as it was a true DP weapon while the 5.25 was 70/30 in favour of surface but primarly their weren't enough 5.25s available, which is why the Dido's often left without their full compliment of turrets. The Lion plan with the 4.5s was due to the concern that the KGV's would have to have guns removed in order to fill the compliment.

 

In game terms we already have a useful precedent for usable secondaries on a RN BB, the Warspite. Give the Vanguard and Lion 6km range with Warspite 6" dispersion and that game has at least nodded towards the improvements of the platform.

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38 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

A lot of secondary guns which fired AP in real life used to do so in the game as well. They were completely useless and the change to HE was a welcome Buff. Damage is much better and fires add to it.

 

Problem with AP was the way the AI aims (waterline / Center) so basically everything shattered 

 

Did it shatter or bounce with angles greater then 45 degrees on light Cruisers too ?  I can imagine AP shells actually defeat light Cruiser armour belts and can citadel them. HE cannot and is reduced to chipping ( 33 % or 16 % ) damage.

 

But then again IFHE secondaries damage Cruisers at every angle and (within) range on most parts of their ship. The  choice between  always doing continuous little damage ( although secondaries can have quite the ROF ) or sometimes citadel is understandable. Even without fire chance mechanics. It is the same way for AP main weapons that bounce on bows and glancing angles afterall.....

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

Did it shatter or bounce with angles greater then 45 degrees on light Cruisers too ?  I can imagine AP shells actually defeat light Cruiser armour belts and can citadel them. HE cannot and is reduced to chipping ( 33 % or 16 % ) damage.

 In the ancient era of this game, some BB secondaries  were shooting AP, some were shooting HE. However, this proved to be an advantage for the BB s that had only HE  shooting secondaries, so WG made them all HE only. 

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59 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

giphy.gif

 

can I get one of those massas? 

clearly it is better than mine...

 

Yes, yes forgot about the module....standard on my BB's anyway, you forget they are there........i just saw the captain was somewhere else and thought it was "stock" then.

 

When you think of it AFT doesn't really give that high a range buff......only 1.8 km. Yet 3.6 seconds ROF is good for a continuous barrage. And they shoot over islands too.....

 

 

wows 47.jpg

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31 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

A lot of secondary guns which fired AP in real life used to do so in the game as well. They were completely useless and the change to HE was a welcome Buff. Damage is much better and fires add to it.

 

The Nelsons 6" guns used to fire AP and I did get a couple of surprise citadels out of them. Maybe that's an idea for a future secondary brawler, an AP focussed barrage instead of HE, lots of shells but with a high risk of just plinking off into the ocean.

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16 minutes ago, The_White_Whale said:

The 'It was a garbage gun' thing is more of a modern myth that grows each time it gets recirculated in the forums.

I don't think it was garbage, but it certainly had its problems. It was an ineffective AA weapon on Battleships (too slow to track and fire) and neither a first class AA or surface weapon on cruisers, which is where Cunningham's issues came in. Some RN attempts at innovation were successful, this one wasn't wholly satisfactory.

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There are some rediculous inconsistencies though.....

 

 

wows 48.jpg

 

Starting at 09:00 = 44 seconds. Benson DD 5 x 127 mm.

 

 

wows 50.jpg

 

Starting at 09:00 = 28 seconds (!)  Massachussets 10 x 127 mm.

 

 

 

 

wows 49.jpg

 

Starting at 08:00 = 82 seconds. Alabama 10 x 127 mm.

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