Thunderer vs Marceau

[Hirohito]

I am currently in the position where I can buy either the Thunderer or the Marceau, but I'm at a loss now since I don't know which one I want to get.
I do like playing BBs from time to time, even though I am currently a DD main.

I recently grinded the German BB line up till the FdG and my most played BB is the Massa, and oh boy do I hate their inaccurate main guns.
I understand that the Thunderer has a very different role to secondary-based ships like FdG and Massa, as it's much less tanky and much more accurate.
I do like that appeal, but haven't played played any similar BBs before.
The Thunderer does sound like fun though, as I generally don't have too many issues with my aim and the Thunderer looks like a ship that rewards aim.

The Marceau however I'm unsure of.
I really like that it's a DD, but as a Daring player, I understand that Marceau plays very different, sometimes more like a hybrid of Khaba and Henri IV (which I also own) that can open-water gunboat very well, set fires and be generally annoying while dodging shots, but lacking concealment for active cap contesting.
While my Henri IV is fun to take out once in a while, I kind of dislike how stale the open-water gunboating can be when you do it a lot.
But perhaps I'm missing something, and the Marceau can in fact hunt DDs near the caps and do other things than just setting BB fires at range? (I love that aspect of the Daring, that is DD hunting near caps)

While the Marceau's ~7km (fully specced) detection isn't great for a DD, it's far different from the Henri IV's massive detection radius (~14 km).

Does anyone have experience with both ships, and could give me a few pointers in the ups and down (and general fun!) these ships provide?

[neorvo]

In this moment, those are the same ships I am thinking about. I am a co-op player main, using DD. In this case, the Marceau seems logical to get. But, the Thunder has been reported as one of the best BB for coal. As a ship collector, this is important too ;)  The basic or basal information I have at this moment is:

 

1) Marceau is "similar to play" as Mogador/Kleber. I have Mogador, is very fun, powerful. Kleber seems to displace the Khasba . Khaba is more difficult to play than Mogador, especially if you don't use the smoke. Turn like a brick. The "movility" is much better with french DD.

2) The Thunder is similar to Conqueror (I have not either of them :(. I think they produce a lot of fire, or receive a lot of them :)

3) In the future can appear the old steal ships by coal . This is a intuition, not a real information. I am looking for the old Tier IX DD's

 

So, I am waiting as much as possible to see all the options, before triggering the coal. My advice: try to play similar ships, before spending the coal: For Marceau, play at least Fantastique or Mogador, better Kleber (I don't have it, but I guess they are similar). For Thunder, try to play Conqueror first.

 

I have the same question as you, but I don't have a clear answer yet. Thanks for posting this question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hirohito]

I was considering to save up for the Neustrashimy myself if they release her for coal, but since the anniversary event is around the corner I'd like to cash in on that super container. Also I'm tired of waiting for Neustrashimy with 220k coal in the bank, I want a new toy now. But I also want the most fun toy.

[Beastofwar]

Thunderer is a lightly armoured fast BB that can flank fast and then deliver killing citadels on any larger ship.....or.......storm right into the focus of mass camping enemies and die miserably in mere seconds. It can camp exchanging lobbing shells toward the enemy longer ranges too but probably suffers it's lighter armour then. I never camp with BB so i can't tell.....i do know it is rather squishy among tier X BB monsters.

 

DD in general can move more freely as they have far better concealment ( when not caught by CV or betrayed by RDF and then radar ) but your punch is in your torpedoes and it is often more difficult to deliver that onto a target. Although French DD behave as (mini) Cruisers. I noticed cruisers are on their menu.

 

When interested in scoring high i would go for DD....as they actually don't need to clap torpedo's into enemies to end up in top 3 scoring. Some sneaky (re)capping here and there, passively undetectd spotting while allies hit your spotted targets......killing a rival DD that you ( accidently or not ) stumble into.....all enough to get to top 3 scoring, and winning. DD are very influential in matches....when they can resist killing themselves in constested caps and survive the first 3 minutes that is.

 

BB are far less influential. They may end up high as they can rack up a lot of damage, but that damage may not be necessarily be match winning.

 

Then again playing DD ( not rushing to caps to explode within 3 mins ) is a very specific play style that may not suit BB players.

[Ocsimano18]

I have both of them. cruising around with the high speed Marceau is much more fun, but Thunderer is more OPish. A lot of players compare Marceau to Kleber, but I can't, because I don't have the Kleber, but Marceau has the premium camo, for sure.

[Hirohito]

2 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

When interested in scoring high i would go for DD....as they actually don't need to clap torpedo's into enemies to end up in top 3 scoring. Some sneaky (re)capping here and there, passively spotting while allies hit your spotted targets......killing a rival DD that you ( accidently or not ) stumble into.....all enough to get to top 3 scoring, and winning. DD are very influential in matches....when they survive the first 3 minutes that is.

I like that aspect of DD play, my question was more if Marceau can reliably do so, or whether it's more relegated to HE lobbing at range like Khaba or HIV.
I really don't want to get another open water gunboat, so if people are using Marceau to stalk the caps (either to cap or hunt the other DD there), she could be fun for me. 

[Hirohito]

1 minute ago, Ocsimano18 said:

I have both of them. cruising around with the high speed Marceau is much more fun, but Thunderer is more OPish. A lot of players compare Marceau to Kleber, but I can't, because I don't have the Kleber, but Marceau has the premium camo, for sure.

Thanks.
Your answer is both helpful and unhelpful at the same time. 
I don't wanna miss out on an "OPish" ship that could get pulled from the armoury in the future, but fun and OPish aren't necessarily the same things.

How do you play your Marceau?

[Ocsimano18]

2 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

I like that aspect of DD play, my question was more if Marceau can reliably do so, or whether it's more relegated to HE lobbing at range like Khaba or HIV.
I really don't want to get another open water gunboat, so if people are using Marceau to stalk the caps (either to cap or hunt the other DD there), she could be fun for me. 

Marceau can dominate caps by killing enemy DDs there. You don't care about other DDs outspotting you, becuase you run them down and promptly kill them.

[Ocsimano18]

1 minute ago, Hirohito said:

How do you play your Marceau?

I have a close range build, so no damage farming, but I can go dark quickly. I hunt down enemy DDs, take caps, play the AA game against CVs, and fool around. I have low damage but nice WR, so far. Also, I bought the speed module for coal, it's +40% speed boost time, so yeah.

[kapnobathrac]

I have both thunderer more fun

[Beastofwar]

I did notice in other higher tier French DD ( that have huge detection ranges and no smoke ) they are quite lethal to DD supporting (light) Cruisers too. Maybe not as strange when you see them as the mini-Cruisers they are. ( fun to think the Atlanta/Flint are branded a real cruiser while they are more a large DD....probably because they are slower then typical DD but only that )

 

But you never ever step down from the throttle...it is quite a different playstyle within DD class already quite different playstyle when you come from other type ships.

 

So the choice between a fast light armoured BB with huge guns ( a flanker ) and a speedy but fragile mini-cruiser DD....hard choice. Maybe waiting for other ships gives more options that a specific preference player likes. But learning how to use a very different playstyle ships is quite fun/challenging too.

[Jvd2000]

I don’t know how fast you gain coal but IF WG decides to remove from shop a coal ship I think Thunderer is the first to join JB and Smolensk.  If you prefer Marceau more then sure take the dd, but plan ahead and take into account that you might miss out on Thunderer. At the end of 2020 3 former steel ships will be added to the coal shop. WG might decide to clean up the availability of ships...

[Ocsimano18]

 

8 minutes ago, Jvd2000 said:

I don’t know how fast you gain coal but IF WG decides to remove from shop a coal ship I think Thunderer is the first to join JB and Smolensk.  If you prefer Marceau more then sure take the dd, but plan ahead and take into account that you might miss out on Thunderer. At the end of 2020 3 former steel ships will be added to the coal shop. WG might decide to clean up the availability of ships...

Agreed, if you ever want Thunderer, then get it now.

[gopher31]

Thunderer. Great accurate guns and almost cruiser agility.

 

Marceau has terrible shell flight times so is not great at range. It will win 1v1 against most destroyers but will not last long if the enemy has any kind of support.

[luokailk]

47 minutes ago, Ocsimano18 said:

I have both of them. cruising around with the high speed Marceau is much more fun, but Thunderer is more OPish. A lot of players compare Marceau to Kleber, but I can't, because I don't have the Kleber, but Marceau has the premium camo, for sure.

So is the play style (fun feeling) of Thunderer similar to that of Slava?

[kfa]

Marceau is basicly the unnerfed Khaba when it was introduced back then + useful AA.

[LeSnoet]

https://youtu.be/-plF3-dm3OI

 

this. The Marceau is fun, action time!

 

Thunderer is good for a BB. However it is also less more actionpacked. 

[gopher31]

13 minutes ago, kfa said:

Marceau is basicly the unnerfed Khaba when it was introduced back then + useful AA.

With better dpm but without the great shell travel times.

[ZifTTroll]

1 hour ago, Hirohito said:

I am currently in the position where I can buy either the Thunderer or the Marceau, but I'm at a loss now since I don't know which one I want to get.
I do like playing BBs from time to time, even though I am currently a DD main.

I would recommend the Thunderer hands down, because its just more worth it than another HE spamming DD (also thunderer will be removed soon due to popularity)

 

Thunderer is basically Conq with 457mm, which means cruiser overmatch, good agility with 10 seconds rudder,  very good HE and also very good AP. Since Conq is rather heavily focused on HE Thunderer can spam HE just as effectively as the Conq and also punish all enemy ships with ease with its AP than Conq which might struggle to cit BBs due to its shorter fuse time. Yes it only has 82900 HP but its still pretty tanky if played well and it has a 0.6% heal with 60 seconds cooldown, not as good as the Conq but still better than others.

 

I personally don't have Marceau but from what I hear it doesn't bring anything new to the table, just another HE spamming DD like Daring/Harugumo/Kleber. Its like buying Salem for 240k coal when you already have DM, not really worth it compared to other more interesting choices. Its a good ship but if you want just a frankly OP ship that solves a lot of Conq's issues then Thunderer is the best pick.

[Hirohito]

2 minutes ago, ZifTTroll said:

I would recommend the Thunderer hands down, because its just more worth it than another HE spamming DD (also thunderer will be removed soon due to popularity)

 

I personally don't have Marceau but from what I hear it doesn't bring anything new to the table, just another HE spamming DD like Daring/Harugumo/Kleber. Its like buying Salem for 240k coal when you already have DM, not really worth it compared to other more interesting choices. Its a good ship but if you want just a frankly OP ship that solves a lot of Conq's issues then Thunderer is the best pick.

Thanks for your opinion on the matter.
The fact that Thunderer could be removed soon is of course a big plus in favour of the Thunderer.

However, it's interesting that you say that Marceau is "just another HE spamming DD like Daring/Harugumo/Kleber".
I do love my Daring, but I'm not using her in the role as a flamethrower, but more as a dedicated DD killer/cap contester/forward scout.

If Marceau can play around the caps like Daring in the same manner, thats a big plus towards Marceau.

If she's only good at spamming HE for fires (preferably at range), that's of course nothing I'm really interested in.

[22cm]

7 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

 

If Marceau can play around the caps like Daring in the same manner, thats a big plus towards Marceau.
 

It can not, different playstyle for Frenchies, not like the Brits. Bad camo, no smoke, no hydro. 

[Ocsimano18]

9 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

However, it's interesting that you say that Marceau is "just another HE spamming DD like Daring/Harugumo/Kleber".
I do love my Daring, but I'm not using her in the role as a flamethrower, but more as a dedicated DD killer/cap contester/forward scout.

If Marceau can play around the caps like Daring in the same manner, thats a big plus towards Marceau.

I play her exactly in these roles. 

 

52 minutes ago, luokailk said:

So is the play style (fun feeling) of Thunderer similar to that of Slava?

I don't have Slava. The fun with Thunderer if you catch broadsides (once I had 40k into a broadside Montana at the start of the game), you can burn down Yamatos (less fun), and might go to brawling at the endgame. But a lot of times it's not fun, you miss broadsides, you burn down a Yamato, but the game is decided by others playing closer to the cap.

 

Marceau is both action packed and strategic. Action happens when you run down other ships (mostly DDs), strategic because you can quickly reposition and go for the caps. It's not fun when the enemy DD retreats to her peers, so you cannot kill her, and your team decides to stay behind despite that you secured the cap... and you lose.

[ZifTTroll]

7 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

However, it's interesting that you say that Marceau is "just another HE spamming DD like Daring/Harugumo/Kleber".
I do love my Daring, but I'm not using her in the role as a flamethrower, but more as a dedicated DD killer/cap contester/forward scout.

If Marceau can play around the caps like Daring in the same manner, thats a big plus towards Marceau.

If she's only good at spamming HE for fires (preferably at range), that's of course nothing I'm really interested in.

Watch this video for yourself since I'm not the expert in these things.

 

 

[Ocsimano18]

1 minute ago, ZifTTroll said:

Watch this video for yourself since I'm not the expert in these things.

 

 

Watch this video, but consider that Flamu has just also a point of view, don't blindly follow him.

[Bindolaf_Werebane]

I actually regret getting the Thunderer, but that is obviously subjective. I hate battleships with no armor - and Thunderer has no armor whatsoever, it takes pens from any angle.

 

She has very good, accurate guns, but I found to have zero impact on the game. Sure, 160k damage, nice, yet it was always another loss. Then I switched to 90% AP and things got a little better, but not much. I started winning games, but it all felt very situational. Sure, I could flank and blap, but static games (and we all know however rare those are, right?) are just doubly boring.

 

Wish I had my coal back.

 

Edit: 1. That is coming from a BB main who can sometimes play really good games, but is mostly average. 2. That doesn't mean I'd pick the Marceau, but that's just cause I'm really bad at DDs (though good at French cruisers, so who knows). I'd probably just have kept the coal. Now I'm just sad.