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Beastofwar

Secondary Battery damage feedback

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It occured to me when shooting targets with secondary battery guns there is no damage feedback. A hit simply produces a purple hit ribbon, an incapcitation ribbon or a fire ribbon. But no damage feedback in screen like when you hit with main gun weapons. You cannot ( directly in match, scrolling up numbers from the target ship ) know how much damage your secondary shells are producing, it they do penetrating damage and if not why they fail to do penetrating damage.

 

Taking a Destroyer with the same guns - but obviously now ""main" guns - you suddenly get much more useful information. When taking IFHE you can see you now can penetrate parts of ships you could not without it. Yet with secondary guns it is completely in the dark what is happening asd if there is a difference at all.

 

Why is this ?  Because it is an automated system ? Without damage feedback players will likely always consider secondaries as weak firestarters only.

 

 

 

wows 32.jpg

 

No feedback on what happens with the armour/plating connecting shells. Only a ribbon that they did hit.

 

wows113.jpg

 

When it would be Destroyer guns ( information you get from DD main guns is in the red boxes ) you would get much more usefull information. With secondaries it is missing.

 

 

wows114.jpg

 

Using only the secondaries Mushashi killed the Hindenburg in 140 seconds* at short range. What the hell the ( IFHE ) shells are doing to the Hindenburgs armour is completely unclear. At 11 km that was 240 seconds.

 

140 seconds ( or 240 seconds ) to kill a 51 k HP Cruiser sounds rediculously long....but they merely fill the reload pauses of the main guns up to 11 km so a Cruiser will go down much faster as it never stops taking damage during 30 second main gun reload pauses. So secondaries deserve more detailed information i think.

 

*Started firing at exactly 08:00.

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Might be the game having trouble processing it or simply putting it on the back burner of calculations, although in the top right it does showcase how much damage it is doing. Also in some replays on wetube i've noticed that the counter does go up in real time.

 

Try it with other ships and see if its only a muhsushi problem only.

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18 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

Might be the game having trouble processing it or simply putting it on the back burner of calculations, although in the top right it does showcase how much damage it is doing. Also in some replays on wetube i've noticed that the counter does go up in real time.

 

Try it with other ships and see if its only a muhsushi problem only.

 

I know but realtime damage numbers rising from the target ship are missing ( main gun hits have that )  and detailed ribbons what hitting shells are doing ( main guns have that )  are missing. Not a Mushashi problem, all secondries produce only purple ribbons upon hitting. ( but they do still shatter or hit torpedo protection for 0 damage without info on that )

 

Now i guess for most players not investing in secondary batteries that is no problem : they see secondaries as short range firethrowers anyway. Fire ribbons are displayed.

 

It is about players that want to use secondary batteries as the DD and Cruiser caliber weapons they are. At range secondaries are punished in accuracy enough so they cannot be compared to actual DD and Cruiser guns damage,  but with missing information what happens when they do hit it becomes very hazy what their effect/power is.

 

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

I know but realtime damage numbers rising from the target ship are missing ( main gun hits have that )  and detailed ribbons what hitting shells are doing ( main guns have that )  are missing. Not a Mushashi problem, all secondries produce only purple ribbons upon hitting. ( but they do still shatter or hit torpedo protection for 0 damage without info on that )

 

Now i guess for most players not investing in secondary batteries that is no problem : they see secondaries as short range firethrowers anyway. Fire ribbons are displayed.

 

It is about players that want to use secondary batteries as the DD and Cruiser caliber weapons they are. At range secondaries are punished in accuracy enough so they cannot be compared to actual DD and Cruiser guns damage,  but with missing information what happens when they do hit it becomes very hazy what their effect/power is.

 

 

 

 

Might, either be a display bug. Something wrong with the game or something on your end. I would double check all systems (i know, but better to make sure).

Otherwise i have no clue what could cause anything like this really.

 

Mind you with secondaries, range, aim and accuracy is usually the main issue but for this im not entirely sure what the reason is really. I prefer the secondary system on UA:D anyways at least they actually pose a threat there to smoll ships, but then they are two different games so eh.

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While secondaries are same as DD guns, they are a completely seperated armament. They probably have a different ribbon implementation, registering only a hit, fire and module damage.

 

Only a theory...

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1 hour ago, CptBarney said:

Might be the game having trouble processing it or simply putting it on the back burner of calculations, although in the top right it does showcase how much damage it is doing. Also in some replays on wetube i've noticed that the counter does go up in real time.

 

Try it with other ships and see if its only a muhsushi problem only.

 

Only the target ship sees damage numbers popping up, as in the one being hit by the secondaries. Probably thats what youve seen in videos ?

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9 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Only the target ship sees damage numbers popping up, as in the one being hit by the secondaries. Probably thats what youve seen in videos ?

Ill have to watch some of panzerknackers secondary vids (not that im a fan of his sometimes, but the secondary ones tend to be fun to watch). Otherwise, it's odd how they don't show up from a players point of view.

If its because it will be too confusing just allow players to switch the feature on and also allow players to assign various colours to main battery and secondary battery hits and damage, also only noticed the screenshots showing pommus and biscuits.

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Would be helpful but the ribbons would probably take up a lot of space on the screen along with the main battery ones, but it is definitely nice to know that you didn't just do 5k dmg with 400 secondary hits:Smile_trollface:

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They should fix the secondary aiming first.

A simple rock or sunbathing beach is enough to make secondaries say "no no, can't shoot over that".

While its ok to shoot over two islands that are at least 300 meters high. :cap_wander:

 

Also secondaries aim for main belt which is most armored. When brawling and doing a drive by secondaries just aim for the most armored spot instead of superstructure or parts that secondaries can penetrate. :cap_wander_2:

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1 hour ago, Rautainen_Biisoni said:

Also secondaries aim for main belt which is most armored.

 

For the targets they should damage as they are 100-155 mm weapons  : DD and light Cruisers ( armed with the same weapons ) with IFHE if need be that is no issue. Light Cruisers only have 25-27 mm of "armoured belt" which you penetrate easily and at any angle since (IF)HE is indifferent to angles. (IF)HE citadels are stopped because that light armour is layered or the citadel has it's own heavier armour beneath the belt. But you don't need to citadel with (IF)HE, only attack the ships HP pool for 33 % of listed shell damage for the penetration shot. Most small caliber are around 1800 dmg = ~ 600 dmg per hit ( these are often 4-5 sec reloading weapons mind you ) and ~2200 dmg for the 152+ mm ones = ~700 dmg per hit. ( reload at ~ 10 secs ) Numbers are small but if they do not shatter or do 0 damage it stacks rapidly and these targets ( DD and light Cruisers ) do not have large HP pools.....

 

If you seek to set fires to heavy Cruisers and BB it may be a problem shattering on the much larger and thicker armoured belt. That is not a problem for me as i don't expect  secondaries to damage targets that need the main guns. They may set a few fires....

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2 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

Light Cruisers only have 25-27 mm of "armoured belt"

O'Rly?

 

shot-20_08.24_22_44.14-0217.thumb.jpg.8681dd50759752fe7c9545bd87663dbd.jpg

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The damage numbers would be mostly unwelcome clutter on the screen. 

 

Secondary fire is all HE so it either penetrates or doesn't. If it penetrates you'll see the damage counter slowly rolling up. If it doesn't, then switch to a softer target if you can. You get enough feedback. 

 

And if you shoot the same target with both main and secondary batteries, you don't want to confuse the two. 

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9 hours ago, Uglesett said:

O'Rly?

 

shot-20_08.24_22_44.14-0217.thumb.jpg.8681dd50759752fe7c9545bd87663dbd.jpg

 

Some light cruisers have a thicker armour belt yes.....along with all heavier cruisers. But say, do you think the spraying ( even with full build ) AI gunners hit only that small strip and not all the green surface around it ? And you made the superstructure not visible. The belt represents maybe 20 % of the surface, and bow ( most cruisers will always angle against AP ) on it is not even a surface you can hit.

 

You don't need ( or almost always can't ) to citadel with (IF)HE so that small strip of armour is unimportant.  AI gunners aim for centre mass but they are inaccurate enough to miss small strips they can't penetrate a lot. And then again, a lot if not most light cruisers do not even have a thick enough armoured belt.

 

The thing with BB and BB sized Cruisers is that they have mot only thicker but larger armoured belts so secondaries will shatter on it a lot more.

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Vor 13 Stunden, Rautainen_Biisoni sagte:

Also secondaries aim for main belt which is most armored.

Hello

 

The secondary guns aim at the waterline amidships.

 

Due to their dispersion, other areas of the target are also hit at a relatively great distance. If the distance decreases, the impacts increasingly land on the armored belt. In that case, HE shells would normally burst, while armor-piercing shells from the secondary armament could penetrate the armor and, depending on the case, even penetrate the citadel.

 

Kind regards

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19 minutes ago, phambili said:

Hello

 

The secondary guns aim at the waterline amidships.

 

Due to their dispersion, other areas of the target are also hit at a relatively great distance. If the distance decreases, the impacts increasingly land on the armored belt. In that case, HE shells would normally burst, while armor-piercing shells from the secondary armament could penetrate the armor and, depending on the case, even penetrate the citadel.

 

Kind regards

 

Secondaries don't fire AP anymore ? Or did you mean IFHE ? Almost all ships ( except the lower tiers ) have multi-layered or spaced armour so (IF)HE cannot penetrate to the citadel.

 

33 % of shell damage is all you get for penetrations, typically producing 600-700 damage per hit. Unless the area get saturated and then it is 16 % of shell damage, resulting in ~300 damage hits.That is why these weapons should be aimed on DD and Light Cruisers with low HP pools....their damage is too low ( even with a high ROF ) to contribute much to large HP ships.

 

Maybe their low damage is why most players think they are short range firethrowers against BB only. They configure DD and Light Cruiser main guns that way too, instead of fighting the classes they should fight....

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1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

Some light cruisers have a thicker armour belt yes....

Alright. Name some which don't.

 

I mean, @HaachamaShipping already mentions one example, the Mikoyan which is an interesting curiosity, but also somewhat irrelevant as it's going to be :etc_swear:-slapped to oblivion long before it gets close enough to any secondary weapon range in its matchmaking spread.

 

In the higher tiers, even Smolensk's rather weedy 70mm belt is more than enough to shrug off any secondary hits it may take.

 

17 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

140 seconds ( or 240 seconds ) to kill a 51 k HP Cruiser sounds rediculously long....but they merely fill the reload pauses of the main guns up to 11 km so a Cruiser will go down much faster as it never stops taking damage during 30 second main gun reload pauses. So secondaries deserve more detailed information i think.

Unless it just does the smart thing and stays out of secondary range and keeps spamming you with HE? And with the fire resistance you've sacrificed to get that secondary range, that's just going to make their job easier. If we're betting on randomized damage, my money is on Hindenburg fire damage over meme secondaries any day.

 

If a Hindenburg actually stays within your secondary range, you're probably dead because they're about to torp you.

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Vor 13 Minuten, Beastofwar sagte:

Secondaries don't fire AP anymore ? Or did you mean IFHE ? Almost all ships ( except the lower tiers ) have multi-layered or spaced armour so (IF)HE cannot penetrate to the citadel.

Secondary guns


In general, HE shells are fired from the secondary guns. However, some secondary guns also use armor-piercing shells, for example the 120 mm L50 guns of the Giulio Cesare, the 140 mm L50 guns of medium Japanese battleships, the 150 mm L45 guns of German battleships of the lower tier, the 152- mm-L50 armament from Ishizuchi and HMS Nelson, the 155 mm L60 cannons from Izumo and Yamato, the 200 mm L50 cannons from the Kaga, and the like. This information can be found in the technical data of the respective ship.

The secondary guns only fire when the entire target is visible. If the enemy ship is partially covered by an island, they do not take action.

The secondary guns aim at the waterline amidships. Due to their dispersion, other areas of the target are also hit at a relatively large distance. If the distance decreases, the impacts increasingly land on the armored belt. In that case, HE shells would normally crash, while armor-piercing shells from the secondary armament could penetrate the armor and, depending on the circumstances, even penetrate into the citadel,

 

Kind regards

(created with google translator)

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18 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

 

If a Hindenburg actually stays within your secondary range, you're probably dead because they're about to torp you.

 

My ships fire from 7 km ( minimum ) up to 11 km. I need around 8 km to safely avoid/evade all Cruiser torpedo salvo's and experience points out AI takes 30 % more time to kill then at 6 km then.

 

If anything they keep up pressure damaging the fleeing ( or tactical retreating ) Cruiser continuously between main gun salvo's. It makes all the difference as fleeing Cruisers often get time to burn a chasing BB down without it. Being continuously punctured on all surfaces except their armoured belt ( which often is not facing you anyway ) they have a lot less lifespan.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Beastofwar said:

My ships fire from 7 km ( minimum ) up to 11 km.

And a Hindenburg that doesn't manage to stay outside of that while burning you down is probably a potato, and therefore not much of a threat anyway. Or they know exactly what they're doing and you're about to get rushed and die to torps.

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3 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

And a Hindenburg that doesn't manage to stay outside of that while burning you down is probably a potato, and therefore not much of a threat anyway. Or they know exactly what they're doing and you're about to get rushed and die to torps.

 

You argue form a standpoint of ? random mode ?

 

Ofcourse you need to dictate fighting distance ( use tactics to get that close ) if you do not go by a "standard" life lenghtening build in a horrible mode such as random mode.

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12 minutes ago, phambili said:

Secondary guns


In general, HE shells are fired from the secondary guns. However, some secondary guns also use armor-piercing shells, for example the 120 mm L50 guns of the Giulio Cesare, the 140 mm L50 guns of medium Japanese battleships, the 150 mm L45 guns of German battleships of the lower tier, the 152- mm-L50 armament from Ishizuchi and HMS Nelson, the 155 mm L60 cannons from Izumo and Yamato, the 200 mm L50 cannons from the Kaga, and the like. This information can be found in the technical data of the respective ship.

The secondary guns only fire when the entire target is visible. If the enemy ship is partially covered by an island, they do not take action.

The secondary guns aim at the waterline amidships. Due to their dispersion, other areas of the target are also hit at a relatively large distance. If the distance decreases, the impacts increasingly land on the armored belt. In that case, HE shells would normally crash, while armor-piercing shells from the secondary armament could penetrate the armor and, depending on the circumstances, even penetrate into the citadel,

 

Kind regards

(created with google translator)

 

Interesting...im checking on it as at least i have seen ( white ) AP shells fly. But i thought it was an optical leftover from times they were AP shells.

 

You sure that is not on some Asian server which also still has RTS CV ?

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11 minutes ago, phambili said:

In general, HE shells are fired from the secondary guns. However, some secondary guns also use armor-piercing shells, for example the 120 mm L50 guns of the Giulio Cesare, the 140 mm L50 guns of medium Japanese battleships, the 150 mm L45 guns of German battleships of the lower tier, the 152- mm-L50 armament from Ishizuchi and HMS Nelson, the 155 mm L60 cannons from Izumo and Yamato, the 200 mm L50 cannons from the Kaga, and the like. This information can be found in the technical data of the respective ship.

The secondary guns only fire when the entire target is visible. If the enemy ship is partially covered by an island, they do not take action.

 

1. All AP secondaries got removed like 2 years ago or something

2. Secondaries fire at ships behind Islands, if they can lob over. Sometimes, mainguns cant hit, but secondaries can.

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11 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

1. All AP secondaries got removed like 2 years ago or something

Yes i checked, all mentioned are HE. They still do have AP appearance though.

Quote

2. Secondaries fire at ships behind Islands, if they can lob over. Sometimes, mainguns cant hit, but secondaries can.

Not all secondaries fire over islands. Some are perticularly flat arced, probably after their main gun counterpart characteristics.

 

The Massachussets secondaries have notorious high arcs though, able to rain down shells on targets behind islands.....they look like mortars. But then again DD armed with those 127 mm guns also have horrible high arcs and long shell "air time" :Smile_teethhappy:  

 

Probably because they were dual purpose guns, able to get quite some elevation to shoot at air targets.

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6 minutes ago, phambili said:

However, some secondary guns also use armor-piercing shells

Not since patch 0.7.11.

 

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