Wargaming should Participate in Clanbattles.

[Sunleader]

Wargaming should make a Team of the Devs and Staff and Join Clanbattles.

And pls note. Not the Moderators. These are not WG Staff making Decisions on Development. And unlike WG Staff they actually often Active in Clanbattles and know the Metas.

But actual Paid WG Staff.

 

This Staff should form a Clanbattle Team and Participate in the Next T10 Clanbattle Season with CVs.

Because Guys. Dont get me wrong there.

But I already consider Spreadsheet to be mostly useless at Balancing the Game for Randoms. Because there is just too many Faults that Lead to Vastly Wrong Results which Value "Easy to Play" 100 times higher than the actual Capacity of that Ship.

But in Randoms one can at least Claim that the Majority of Players will at least be somewhat Balanced to a Degree.

 

In Clanbattles however. Wargaming has Proven over and over that they have absolutely no Idea of how things work.

And Frankly put. This wont Change unless they actually Form a Team and Participate on a Competetive Level. Because unless they do that they will never Realize just why Clanbattles right now are so Boring and Repetetive.

Much less will they be able to grasp just why CVs completely Destroy Clanbattles by Spotting and why that is a Bad thing and makes it Impossible to use any actual Strategies beyond a Direct Confrontation.

 

 

[ColonelPete]

Sub played this season...

[GarrusBrutus]

... and then they play CBs at pepega level and confirm what they already say: "Everything is fine, 50% of the teams uses bb anyway." 

[_HomTanks_]

They would lose to our top clans. 

[Allied_Winter]

22 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

This wont Change unless they actually Form a Team and Participate on a Competetive Level.

What makes you think that?

[DFens_666]

What kinda heresy is this? Playing your own game... pfff

[HaachamaShipping]

17 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

... and then they play CBs at pepega level and confirm what they already say: "Everything is fine, 50% of the teams uses bb anyway." 

And I guess when they run into a CV + Stalingrad/Venezia lineup, that enemy team "didn't play like a normal team would"?

[Sunleader]

4 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

What makes you think that?

 

Thats easy to Answer.

Unlike Randoms where you can at least make a Fair Case that Balancing should be Done based on the Average Player (even tough I disagree with it)

Clanbattles are simply not something where going by Statistics and thus the Average Player makes Sense.

Because Clanbattles are a Competetive Mode. So Balancing needs to be Done on the Top Leagues and thus the Full Potential of Ships.

 

And thats the Thing. You cannot Possibly Grasp the Extend of things if you never Experience it yourself.

If you Check Total Statistics you wont get any meaningful Picture because you Include the Low Level Clans which never Reach higher Leagues and which cant really use Overpowered Advantages due to simply not knowing about them.

But if you Check Statistics of only Top Leagues you already have Filtered out everything thats not Meta and thus wont get any Result aside from "Well Venezia and Stalingrad are Omnipresent" etc.

Meaning you are left to make Guesses on why and how that Happens.

 

Currently. WG is Fishing Blind here. They have absolutely no Idea how Clanbattles work and how exactly certain things happen or become Meta.

And this is Glaringly Obvious to pretty much all of the Top Clans Participating in Clanbattles.

 

 

This is not just Obvious on CVs. But CVs are likely the Elephant in the Room.

WG currently has absolutely no Idea why exactly Top Clans are so up in Arms about CVs.

They still seem to think its just a General dislike of CVs and thus the Top Clans Joining in to Complain about it.

 

And thats not Surprising.

After all. How are you Supposed to See from Statistics that CVs completely Kill Strategies ?

CV Spotting will likely not show out of the Ordinary because from the get go Good Clans will not do anything where Spotting of the CV would be a Problem.

After all they all know they cant escape it. So from the Start everyone will just not attempt to do anything about it.

And thats the thing.

 

Statistics wont Show this. Statistics will not Show you that something is Overpowered. Because if something is Overpowered in Clanbattles then all Clans will do it and thus Cancel it out.

Which then Results in the Currently Stale and Boring Meta of Stalingrad+Venezia+Haku

[Allied_Winter]

2 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

And thats the Thing. You cannot Possibly Grasp the Extend of things if you never Experience it yourself.

As far as I understand your point (and please correct me if I'm wrong), you're basing this on two assumptions:

 

1. That WG so far has not played CB's in any way shape or form (otherwise we wouldn't be were - according to you ... or shall I say the hyper competetive clans - we are today).

 

2. That IF WG would play CB's in a way that's more in line with the hpyer competetive clans, that they'd ... "see the light" (for lack of a better term) and start balancing the game - at least with CB's in mind - differently.

 

 

I have my doubts about these assumptions, but refrain to answer until you confirmed (or denied) if I read your underlying assumptions correctly (or not).

 

5 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

How are you Supposed to See from Statistics that CVs completely Kill Strategies ?

True. But that implies that strategies actually matter in the first place. If you see CB's as nothing else as a 7v7 (or 8v8, 4v4) division that you don't want to put in the random MM all strategy thinking goes out of the window. Imho this strategic thinking would only cater to those interested in ... let's put it this way: More challenging and deeper engagements (from a tactical point of view). That's not limited to Unicorn clans (as we seen in e.g. the "CV in CB Boycott" movement were according to my info a few Silver/Gold league clans also participated). 

[ColonelPete]

10 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Statistics wont Show this. Statistics will not Show you that something is Overpowered. Because if something is Overpowered in Clanbattles then all Clans will do it and thus Cancel it out.

Which then Results in the Currently Stale and Boring Meta of Stalingrad+Venezia+Haku

You know that they can just get the stats from the top clans...

[Sunleader]

25 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

As far as I understand your point (and please correct me if I'm wrong), you're basing this on two assumptions:

 

1. That WG so far has not played CB's in any way shape or form (otherwise we wouldn't be were - according to you ... or shall I say the hyper competetive clans - we are today).

 

2. That IF WG would play CB's in a way that's more in line with the hpyer competetive clans, that they'd ... "see the light" (for lack of a better term) and start balancing the game - at least with CB's in mind - differently.

 

 

I have my doubts about these assumptions, but refrain to answer until you confirmed (or denied) if I read your underlying assumptions correctly (or not).

 

True. But that implies that strategies actually matter in the first place. If you see CB's as nothing else as a 7v7 (or 8v8, 4v4) division that you don't want to put in the random MM all strategy thinking goes out of the window. Imho this strategic thinking would only cater to those interested in ... let's put it this way: More challenging and deeper engagements (from a tactical point of view). That's not limited to Unicorn clans (as we seen in e.g. the "CV in CB Boycott" movement were according to my info a few Silver/Gold league clans also participated). 

 

Then let me answer the Assumptions First.

 

1.

I dont hold a History Record of WG. So I cant claim they NEVER Played it.

But I do have no Information on them having Played it to a Competetive Level in the Current Meta with Venezias and CVs.

 

2.

If nothing else. If they have to actually work out Strategies and thus have to actually Learn about the Meta. They will also Learn that what they often Write in their Devblogs on the issue is completely Alienating most of the Competetive Community.

I have little Doubt at WGs Stubborness to Refuse "Seeing the Light" as you call it. But I do have Hopes that maybe it will at least make them Realize some of the more Obvious Issues like why DDs are basicly Removed from CBs right now.

As they will have to Decide for themselves if taking a DD along is worth it. And will be Faced with the Fact that doing so will make them Lose alot more etc.

 

 

You could also Sum it up as "Hope Dies last I guess"

 

 

On the other Part of your Post.

 

Strategy matters ALOT. But thats the thing. It only matters if you can keep it hidden from the Enemy. Because otherwise the Enemy will just immediately counter it. And turn it into a Disadvantage for you.

And thats the thing.

CVs by giving both Teams the Ability to Immediately see the Strategy of the Enemy Team. All Strategy becomes useless because it will always turn out to be a Direct Artillery Duel.

And thats the thing.

Without CVs. Stalingrads were already Popular because they could keep DDs on Distance with Radar AND where Strong in Artillery Fights. But they werent Omnipotent. You always had Minos and other Ships along which could use Concealment to stay hidden and go Forward. And you also always had other Ships around that were Stronger in certain other Situations than a Direct Long Range Artillery Duel.

But with CVs all of this is Impossible. Concealment is worthless. Hence any Ship that is not the Strongest in a Direct Artillery Duel is also worthless because you simply cannot use any Strategies to get them into a Position where they are Strong.

Hence. The only True Option for Clans that want to Win. Is to take the Ship that is Strongest in a Direct Artillery Duel.

Any other Ship is meaningless and only Reduces your Chances to Win.

 

 

Edit:

Also just saying this.

But if Strategies in Clanbattles are Meaningless. Then with all due Respect. Something is wrong. Because that Mode is Supposed to be Rules by Strategy and Skill.

 

[Miragetank90]

I think you're misunderstanding something here.

WG is fully aware of ''how things work'', and of the associated issues people have with CBs, the latter has been quite literally shouted at them from day 1.  

 

What they have is a different vision for the future of this mode, one that is not compatible with an invested portion of the playerbase - who have a different vision of how they want things to be, and what is OK and what is not. 

 

This is the crux of the issue. CVs are just a part of the picture.  

 

 

[mdjmcnally]

Whilst not partaking in clan battles myself, it is going to be more competitive, attract the better players, people will play differently.

 

often in random as well people may be playing for objectives, as opposed to necessarily winning.  For instance if need to start fires then will play a fir starting ship and look to set fires even though may be better in reality firing AP, which does more damage but won’t start a fire as such.

 

i am typical (Very Casual) in that 40% range player in random, yet when play ranked then my win rate is up in the 50’s, as am more concerned at winning then simply meeting objectives.    Spreadsheet certainly cannot capture things like that.

 

i am not a carrier player, I don’t mind 1 per team but 2 per team gets frustrating, but ended up playing Graf zeppelin just to grind out the containers for German collection. As not really into it hen just set the autopilot, head for enemy and let the secondaries get to work.   Towards the end then even managed to get a few citadels with AP bombs.   Just to be clear I did this in co-op but even then some people complain about poor cv, yet am only there to get the containers.   Otherwise never play them.

things like that will also sway the statistics as there will be an exceptionally poor player for quite a few games on that carrier now, though am sure still won’t get buffed.

 

i still have 4000basexp to grind in uk destroyer which as don’t play DD normally again will be ground out in co-op with the team suffering from really poor DD.   Scoot around the flank, try and avoid other DD and Cruiser then slide up to the BB and torpedo it.

 

these will or warp a spreadsheet stats out, really is no substitute for he dev’s actually playing.

[Sunleader]

6 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

I think you're misunderstanding something here.

WG is fully aware of ''how things work'', and of the associated issues people have with CBs, the latter has been quite literally shouted at them from day 1.  

 

What they have is a different vision for the future of this mode, one that is not compatible with an invested portion of the playerbase - who have a different vision of how they want things to be, and what is OK and what is not. 

 

This is the crux of the issue. CVs are just a part of the picture.  

 

 

 

If their Vision of Clanbattles is to be a Borin Stale Long Range Artillery Duel between Stalingrads and Venezias then sure. Great Job to them.

But Sorry if I actually hope that this isnt WGs Vision here.

 

And Pls note. I Support removing CVs from CBs till they find a Solution to make them Workable. Be that Minimap only Spotting or even making them Similar to Artillery in WoT and having them Require Spotting by other Ships.

Adding Fuel to Squadrons so they can only Travel a Certain Distance. Or whatever other Possibitlies there are for this.

However. For the Final Result I do share the Vision of having CVs being a Part of the Game and also of CBs.

 

Thing is. It makes no Sense to Force them into Clanbattles when they are not Ready.

My Vision for CBs also Includes DDs which are currently Shut out.

All WG is Achieving with this Right now is Pouring Fuel into an Already barely Controllable Dumpster Fire thats been Raging for over a Year now and is Showing little Signs of going out.

 

And who knows. If WG is actually Forced to Play themselves and actually has to Choose wether to Play by Meta or Lose constantly by bringing DDs instead.

Then maybe they find a Solution that allows CVs to be there without Destroying the Mode.

[_Teob_]

WG are very much aware of both the meta and the different ways in which CBs are played. 

In fact, here's a bit of trivia for you: before CBs were even a thing, back when we used to organise clan fights in the training room, TTT (and other clans) would often have "guest stars" from WG who would jump in and play some matches on certain evenings. So not only do people at WG have a good understanding of how the game works at a competitive level, but they have known before a lot of the people playing the game now even knew there was a competitive scene.

Seriously, this assumption that WG don't know their own game is silly. There are people on staff there that are Super Unicums and can play circles around most of the player base. On top of that, like any other company, they have people assigned to keep an eye on things, including competitive. Of course they know everything that happens in their own game. They might not always foresee the unique and unintended ways in which people make use of different mechanics but general stuff like meta and ship choices are well known.

 

My opinion is that they won't balance things around competitive or highly skilled players because they make up a tiny percentage of the player base. Even if a ship would be broken in the hands of 2% of the population, if it's balanced overall, it might not be worth changing anything about it. Especially if it makes money and it doesn't break the game itself. The Smolensk is a perfect example of that. I hate that ship and I think it's bad for the game and, in the hands of Unicums, it's absolutely broken. But overall, its performance is in the bottom half of t10 cruisers. So overall it didn't break the game and it wasn't the absolute apocalypse that you'd think it was reading the forums like 6 months ago or however long it was.

 

The reality is that, even though Unicums are very vocal and very active both in game and on this forum, they do not make up a significant enough proportion of the player base to warrant making changes based solely on their feedback. Having said that, I know for a fact that WG does listen to what the top performing people of the player base say.

That popular meme going on around here about how WG doesn't care about their own game is both nonsensical and objectively wrong.

[Latouche_Treville]

You should mention that the vast majority of the player base doesn't even know there is a forum, and anyway the vast majority of the playerbase is illiterate and/or too lazy to read anything longer than a tweet #potato

[Altsak]

So they have the data. Question then is: What they're going to do with the data? Why are clanbattles the mess they are now?

 

We used to play ~120 games per season before CVs. From season 1 to season 8. This season we have 4 games. The most common reason when asked why our players don't want to play CBs are "because CVs". The second most commons answer and trailing the first by a long mile is:"Reproductive organs decided to reschedule my schedule 9 months earlier"

[Bratoev]

Clan battles are a minor part of the game and not really profitable. Make of this what you will. 

[Lootboxer]

They do know well what is going on, they just can't be arsed to change and balance the whole game around a less then 1% of a player-base - mostly guys that have all endgame content possible to get in the game already and in majority stopped spending money on this game a long time ago.

This is business strategy, different priorities and management of internal human resources vs potential income.

[GarrusBrutus]

3 hours ago, _Teob_ said:

My opinion is that they won't balance things around competitive or highly skilled players because they make up a tiny percentage of the player base. Even if a ship would be broken in the hands of 2% of the population, if it's balanced overall, it might not be worth changing anything about it. Especially if it makes money and it doesn't break the game itself

Hence the ever ongoing cv rework. Financially a great success. That is about the only positive thing. 

3 hours ago, _Teob_ said:

I know for a fact that WG does listen to what the top performing people of the player base say

Listening is one thing, taking critique/feedback/suggestions is another. I bet they listened to top cv players like El2, farazelleth and Gaishu when they provided feedback and suggestions during the test phases of the cv rework. I bet they listened to the top players when cvs were brought into clanbattles. I bet they listened to top players when ships like Slava, smolensk, harugumo etc. were being brought into the game. I bet they listened to the feedback on events such as PR grind and the NTC. Etc. Etc. It goes on and on and on....

 

To me actions speak louder than words. And their actions say: we only care about revenue. 

I know the staff, like the community managers and the developers, have the best interests at heart regarding the balance and enjoyment of the game. Except they do not make the big decisions. 

3 hours ago, _Teob_ said:

That popular meme going on around here about how WG doesn't care about their own game is both nonsensical and objectively wrong.

Like I said: I know the community managers care about the health of the game. I know the developers care as well. I just doubt the people in charge care about anything else than what number appears on their bank accounts. If the people in charge really cared about their game, things like NTC/cv rework/grindy time gated p2w events/ships like smolensk and Slava would have never been even considered to being into the game. 

[Zip__]

4 hours ago, Latouche_Treville said:

You should mention that the vast majority of the player base doesn't even know there is a forum, and anyway the vast majority of the playerbase is illiterate and/or too lazy to read anything longer than a tweet #potato

Or you could say that the vast majority of the player base is just happy to play the game and don’t feel the need to post on the forum.

[Bratoev]

1 hour ago, Zip__ said:

Or you could say that the vast majority of the player base is just happy to play the game and don’t feel the need to post on the forum.

 

1 hour ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Hence the ever ongoing cv rework. Financially a great success. That is about the only positive thing. 

Listening is one thing, taking critique/feedback/suggestions is another. I bet they listened to top cv players like El2, farazelleth and Gaishu when they provided feedback and suggestions during the test phases of the cv rework. I bet they listened to the top players when cvs were brought into clanbattles. I bet they listened to top players when ships like Slava, smolensk, harugumo etc. were being brought into the game. I bet they listened to the feedback on events such as PR grind and the NTC. Etc. Etc. It goes on and on and on....

 

To me actions speak louder than words. And their actions say: we only care about revenue. 

I know the staff, like the community managers and the developers, have the best interests at heart regarding the balance and enjoyment of the game. Except they do not make the big decisions. 

Like I said: I know the community managers care about the health of the game. I know the developers care as well. I just doubt the people in charge care about anything else than what number appears on their bank accounts. If the people in charge really cared about their game, things like NTC/cv rework/grindy time gated p2w events/ships like smolensk and Slava would have never been even considered to being into the game. 

Except they do listen. PR event led us to the Odin event, a much better overall experience. NTC became the RB which is far better, so lessons are being taken. People that want immediate action based on subjective opinions won't make the game better but rather kill it fast. There is a reason WG keeps on ticking in its niche while other games died. Come to think of it Warthunder is their only major competition and focused on a different niche entirely.

[GarrusBrutus]

20 minutes ago, Bratoev said:

 

Except they do listen. PR event led us to the Odin event, a much better overall experience. NTC became the RB which is far better, so lessons are being taken. People that want immediate action based on subjective opinions won't make the game better but rather kill it fast. There is a reason WG keeps on ticking in its niche while other games died. Come to think of it Warthunder is their only major competition and focused on a different niche entirely.

They "listen" because those instances were major **** ups. The reason Wows keeps ticking is due to the niche market. Which means wargaming can basically do whatever the F they want with the game without people running away. Where would they go otherwise? Exactly, nowhere. 

If the market was more saturated, as for example in the FPS games, wargaming would be long gone due to really really reeeeeeaaaaaally bad public relations handling. 

[novents]

@Sunleader mate are you catering to popular opinion by throwing in stuff like “spreadsheet is BS” and “CVs are bad mkay”? How invested are you personally into this game mode and how many hours of CB have you played in the past 3 seasons? Incl the cyclone season. The T10 CV season. And the ongoing T6 CV season. You know that I know the answer :)) so let’s just say this was a rhetorical question okay?

 

As @_Teob_ and @Miragetank90 said WG are perfectly aware of all the issues the playerbase has had with recent clanbattles. There has been ample feedback provided by many players incl from Typhoon and hurricane clans (to satisfy your definition of competitive). People on both sides of the issue - those who want CVs removed, and those who don’t mind CVs as such but realise some changes are required - literally wrote essays with very concrete and helpful suggestions. Which crysantos said he passed on to relevant persons at WG. That’s all we know right now. They don’t need to get a bunch of art department interns in St.Petes into hurricane league to gather feedback - it’s easier and more efficient to ask the players directly. Which they have done. 

 

One thing has been made perfectly clear - CVs are here to stay. According to crysantos. So we may agree or disagree but it is what it is. The question now is how to adapt them for 7v7 CB environment. 

 

As someone who played enough CB games this season - I can tell you from my own experience that it’s not super fun, it’s kinda repetitive and a little boring. But the problem is not the CVs. The problem is small maps (one map is a T3 map - I forget the name lol). I remember playing that map in South Carolina and Derzki. It’s just hilarious but not in a good way. The other problem is the rng of T6. You can’t hit your shots. There’s no consistency. Ships lacks capability. As the currently #1 ranked clan on EU demonstrates in their usual lineup (no two ships of a kind) - all ships are viable. Because all ships are equally meh. Including CV. 

 

So lets see what changes (if any) WG are prepared to implement in future seasons. I just hope it won’t be another low tier pepega fiesta because it feels like brawls and the novelty factor wears off very quickly. 

 

All feedback has been provided. Some clans have formed pressure groups to attempt to influence the future of CBs. WG said they are looking into it. The ball is in their court. Let’s see. If you have concrete suggestions about potential improvements based on your own experience in CBs (like how to tackle spotting and other issues) - let’s hear them out. Otherwise it feels counterproductive at this point to make stale memes about Spreadsheet and it serves little purpose aside from farming forum upvotes lol

 

 

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

On 8/12/2020 at 6:01 PM, GarrusBrutus said:

... and then they play CBs at pepega level and confirm what they already say: "Everything is fine, 50% of the teams uses bb anyway." 

 

This is exactly what SubO did in the recent podcast interview. It was ridiculous.