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krzysiek_1990

british dd still needs IFHE?

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guys tell me

 

does high tier british dd still needs IFHE?

 

Making line first time. I have lighting.

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15 minutes ago, krzysiek_1990 said:

guys tell me

 

does high tier british dd still needs IFHE?

 

Making line first time. I have lighting.

Lightning definetly does not, if that is what you're asking.

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When you do you get 25 mm penetration out of them. That means you can pierce  a lot of Cruisers ( up to Tier X ) bows and sterns and sometimes casemate armour plating ( above the armoured belt ) indifferent of range and angle.

 

What damage that does compared to the lower fire chance i do not know. I would like to know though. The "50 % less fire chance" does not seem such a punisment at a mere 9 % base fire chance either.....

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Even back then IFHE was only worth it when it allowed you to penetrate the central part of many ships you could meet because you didn't have to deal with the saturation mechanic in this case. Hightier DDs didn't use it because it didn't affect interaction with enough ships to be worth 4 points. For midtier DDs however it was very valuable because of the abundance of 25mm armor there. Jutland and Daring on the other hand needed it because their HE couldn't even penetrate DD hulls. Both things were changed and now you can use RPF on all RN DDs. IFHE still has a use at midtiers but in my opinion it's not worth it any more.

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I did a quick training room test on a ( 25 mm armour ) bow facing DM Domskoi.  One time the 120 mm without IFHE and one time with IFHE.

 

Ofcourse the stock 120 mm shatters a lot more as it can only penetrate the superstructure. It was clearly visible the extra shells going in the bow with IFHE shatter a lot less.

 

It does seem though the bow penetrating IFHE 120 mm did a lot more damage and killed the cruiser much faster.

 

The 120 mm without IFHE indeed start 2 more fires and did ~12k more fire damage.......but still it seems it needed 2 x time to kill the cruiser.

 

So i am confused again.......in DD my worst enemies are Cruisers and i will often use GUNS on them since they have hydro, are agile and evade torpedo's easily. These cruisers fear AP ( close range even from DD ) so will face 25 mm bow on to you. So IFHE does not seem to be so useless afterall......a stock you can't penetrate that bow.

 

Unless you want to fight BB with guns rather then torpedo's....i haven't worked that out yet. It seems torpedo's are much better weapons to use against BB.

 

 

wows 62.jpg

With IFHE

wows 64.jpg

Without IFHE

wows 63.jpg

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7 minutes ago, Stormhawk_V said:

Even back then IFHE was only worth it when it allowed you to penetrate the central part of many ships you could meet because you didn't have to deal with the saturation mechanic in this case. Hightier DDs didn't use it because it didn't affect interaction with enough ships to be worth 4 points. For midtier DDs however it was very valuable because of the abundance of 25mm armor there. Jutland and Daring on the other hand needed it because their HE couldn't even penetrate DD hulls. Both things were changed and now you can use RPF on all RN DDs. IFHE still has a use at midtiers but in my opinion it's not worth it any more.

This is not really true, as before you could not pen DD's without IFHE. So unless you just wanted to fire AP or try to set fires on everything you could skip IFHE, but if you actually wanted to have some form of fighting chance against other DD's then IFHE was a must.

 

IFHE is no longer needed nowadays, as the reduction in fire chance is not worth dropping for the chance to pen cruiser bows and sterns, targets that you will not hit all the time and there are rare occasions where you get to farm something that rushes you bow in. The 4 points are better spent elsewhere.

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2 minutes ago, ollonborre said:

This is not really true, as before you could not pen DD's without IFHE. So unless you just wanted to fire AP or try to set fires on everything you could skip IFHE, but if you actually wanted to have some form of fighting chance against other DD's then IFHE was a must.

 

IFHE is no longer needed nowadays, as the reduction in fire chance is not worth dropping for the chance to pen cruiser bows and sterns, targets that you will not hit all the time and there are rare occasions where you get to farm something that rushes you bow in. The 4 points are better spent elsewhere.

Yeah, that's like... exactly what I wrote.

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10 minutes ago, Stormhawk_V said:

Yeah, that's like... exactly what I wrote.

That you did, my brain seemed to gloss over that for some reason:Smile_facepalm:

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1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

So i am confused again.......in DD my worst enemies are Cruisers and i will often use GUNS on them since they have hydro, are agile and evade torpedo's easily. These cruisers fear AP ( close range even from DD ) so will face 25 mm bow on to you. So IFHE does not seem to be so useless afterall......a stock you can't penetrate that bow. 

 

On typical engegament ranges, you wont hit the bow/stern area reliably enough to make use of that. And 5km is certainly not a place you want to find yourself against any Cruiser, let alone one carrying radar and or Hydro. Its much easier to hit the superstructure, more hits = more damage.

 

2 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

The 120 mm without IFHE indeed start 2 more fires and did ~12k more fire damage.......but still it seems it needed 2 x time to kill the cruiser.

 

There seems to be something wrong with that.

The one without IFHE, you fired less shells than the one with HE. So it couldnt be slower.

In one scenario you shot 252 shells in 4:15 and in the other 260 shells in 2:51...

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once again, one person in this topic is presenting heavy fake news. who might it be?

 

image.thumb.png.0cb5a0856added9a1a155bfa58653e3d.png

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2 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

but still it seems it needed 2 x time to kill the cruiser.

it took the same amount of shells...

so your test suggests that IFHE is not required as the benefit is not worth 4 skill points. Better do something else. Thank you for the suggestion.

 

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45 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

once again, one person in this topic is presenting heavy fake news. who might it be?

 

image.thumb.png.0cb5a0856added9a1a155bfa58653e3d.png

 

Yes in your mind every mistake is intentional.

 

I simply mistook the Cossack as the same ship as the Lightning, both carrying the same type guns. But the Cossack has 2 guns more....those details matter but i do not know them by hart of all my 160+ ships.....

 

Still has an interesting difference to it.....2 more guns = kill 2x as fast while the Lightning guns are 0.5 seconds faster still does't add up right? And i didn't "fake" any of it so go explain that difference. Or produce test yourself.

 

Btw that is not a DD captain. Just put him in Cossack to see what IFHE does to 120 mm guns.

 

 

wows 65.jpg

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OP, In no situation does the RN DD line need IFHE. More useful points to spec into. Also disregard everything BoW says. It'll most likely always be wrong. 

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No you want to start fires quickly when you see a damage con is used. Alpha damage farming with the short smokes isn't worth it.

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28 minutes ago, Bear__Necessities said:

OP, In no situation does the RN DD line need IFHE. More useful points to spec into. Also disregard everything BoW says. It'll most likely always be wrong. 

 

Why don't you explain WHY 120 mm guns dont need IFHE  ?

 

- You dont need it to to penetrate DD hulls...obvious.

- You dont need it it penetrate 25 mm Cruiser bow/stern/casemate plating ? No ? Why not ? Explain in detail.

- You want to set more fires to BB ? Why would you throw away concealment machinegunning your guns ?? You have torpedoes to kill BB and they hit a lot harder....( and not all DD have smoke anyway )

 

- Why is a lowly 10%  fire chance on these 120 mm guns ( with DE )  so important when all BB have an anti-fire build and coal 21 sec fire immunity extinghuishers ? Fire being repairable damage and all....

- Cruisers and DD burn very short. Why is +fire usefull against them ?

- Since IFHE still sets fires ( in my test 3 fires IFHE  to 5 fires without IFHE ) is that fire damage really going to offset all the penetration explosive damage instead of shatters and actually produce more damage ? Proof !

 

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OP, It's up to you if you want to listen to BoW and his ramblings. But RN High tier DD's have in built IFHE in effect. Your guns are mostly used against other DD's so IFHE isn't needed against them If you get stuff broadside your AP works great.

 

Here are my credentials in high tier RN DD's. Up to you if you want to take my advice or not.

 

(EU top lot, NA account bottom lot) 

 

image.thumb.png.def022bc3bd86d86753dacd5318218f4.png

 

 

 

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In the past you need IFHE to pen even DDs with HE on the T9 and 10 DDs, however since the IFHE rework the default pen was increased by 1mm thus you no longer need IFHE, and as the RN DDs are basically designed to fight DDs you shouldn't waste investing on skills not needed for that task.

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1 hour ago, Cyclops_ said:

@Beastofwar, Cossack and lightning guns are very different, please check out the wiki stats.

 

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Cossack

 

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Lightning

 

Both have different velocity and fire chance, maybe that will explain it more.

 

Yes it does....but the thing that i was missing and no one cared to explain is :

 

Damage calculation:

Non-penetration shatter = 0 dmg

Non-citadel penetration = 33% listed maximum HE shell damage (unless section becomes saturated, which reduces it to 16.5%)

Penetration = 100% listed maximum HE shell damage*

*(listed maximum shell damage is also referred to as alpha damage, for a bit of WG game terminology)

 

 

Which explains why i was seeing ~400 damage hits all the time. 1200 maximum damage of that 120 mm HE shell / 33 % = 396 damage.

 

So i trade the 8 % chance on a fire that might be simply extinghuised ( and after that 21 seconds of fire immunity with the coal upgrade on a BB ) for a lot most shells producing ~400 damage on a 25 mm plating Cruiser.

 

Now with the Cossack i can fire 8 x 400 = 3200 penetrating HE damage per 5 seconds which means a Tier IX Dm Domskoi ca be destroyed by IFHE shells in 13 salvo's or 65 seconds. Damage saturation is a thing here but since you can penetrate all the 25 mm or 16/19 mm plating ( bow, stern, casemate armour, superstructure ) you have multiple areas to saturate first.

 

Now we take this from WG : Damage dealt by each instance of fire on a ship is fixed as 0.3% of its total health pool per fire per second

 

We take the DM Domskoi again at 43400 hp. Ofcourse it has an anti fire build so 3 fires can burn. 0,3 % of 43400 = 130 damage per second. But 3 fires burn so 390 damage per second. 43400 / 390 = 111 seconds !

 

Conclusion : in theory killing a 25 mm plating Cruiser is MUCH faster done with IFHE then fires ! And if damage saturation would throw my calculations off, it would at worst be on par with fires.......were it not that fires can be simply exthinguised !!!! And the coal upgrade gives 7 seconds fire imunity on Cruisers.....so fires will not kill a human controlled Domkoi in 111 seconds but in game reality maybe 2 or 3 minutes.....

 

Since you can''t angle against (IF)HE and range does not matter, you cannot do anything against it. While fires can be simply exthinguised !!!

 

So we have established here that against Cruisers IFHE is not useless. And nor is giving secondary guns IFHE for that fact.

 

And the players that insist firing 0 damage shattering HE shells at BB to start a fire ?  Well those should probably wonder if launching torpedo's from stealth would not have been better......a visible DD is a dead DD. Especially to CV that see where gunfire comes from in a smoke cloud.......in surface ships that is harder not impossible to return fire. Hosing down a cloud where gunfire came from not rarely ends up with a dead DD too....

 

Why is shooting at a Cruiser different then ? You are diner for Cruisers, you may need the guns to survive......but BB should be diner for you.Silently, invisible. With torpedo's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Conclusion : in theory killing a 25 mm plating Cruiser is MUCH faster done with IFHE then fires ! And we disregard here that fires can be simply exthinguised !!!! And the coal upgrade gives 7 seconds fire imunity on Cruisers.....

You’re not going to be shooting a stationary bot at 5km that doesn’t fight back though are you. 
 

Your test is worthless on paper.

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16 minutes ago, Bear__Necessities said:

You’re not going to be shooting a stationary bot at 5km that doesn’t fight back though are you. 
 

Your test is worthless on paper.

Correction: Worthless in practice

 

All he proved is that you can do that on paper, and we already knew this.:Smile-_tongue:

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7 minutes ago, lafeel said:

Correction: Worthless in practice

 

All he proved is that you can do that on paper, and we already knew this.:Smile-_tongue:

 

Nothing is more worthless then a simply extinghuished fire.....and 7 secs ( Cruiser) or 21 secs ( BB ) fire imunity after that.  ( as they ofcourse have the coal upgrades )

 

And of all the senseless DD deaths machinegunning it's guns at BB giving up concealment is positioned right after being snuffed in a contested cap......:Smile_facepalm:

 

Maybe it is understandable for a French DD that are in nature miniature Cruisers......but unforgivable for proper DD's...:Smile_facepalm:

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

Nothing is more worthless then a simply extighuished fire.....and 7 secs ( Cruiser) or 21 secs ( BB ) fire imunity after that.  ( as they ofcourse have the coal upgrades )

 

 

Imagine spending coal to run an upgrade for 2s more fire immunity instead of keeping your guns and torps from getting disabled more often as a cruiser.

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