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Sunleader

Make CV Work within normal Gameplay Mechanics.

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[THESO]
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The Biggest Problem with CVs. Is that they can Attack you over and over without ever being at Risk themselves.

 

So instead of Nerfing their Attack Abilities.

How about simply returning them to the proper Gameplay Mechanics ?

 

 

 

Each Time a CV Starts a Squadron or has Planes Land his Concealment should Bloom like that of a Surface Ship.

Bloom will be 200% of Base Concealment.

 

Starting a Squadron will be 20 Seconds Bloom.

Returning Wings/Squadrons will only be 10 Seconds.

 

 

This will mean that CVs have to take care of this when they Launch Attacks or Start Dropping.

It also Punishes Squad Shortening a bit as you will Bloom without Attacking anyone.

Same as Shooting your Guns for no Reason.

 

 

This would make CVs far more Workable.

As just like other Ships they would have to take Risks when Attacking.

 

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What the problem is with CV's and soon Submarines and even Arty in WoT is - If they are focused on you, there is nothing you can do, your day is ruined. They also do not rely on any other class in the game, like a BB relies on a DD for forward spotting.

 

What should be made in order to force CVs to switch targets is to introduce AA Resistance and Readiness. What is that? The more you are attacked by planes, the more "Experienced" your AA Crews get at shooting down planes. How do CV's deal with this? Switch targets to wait for your readiness to coll down, or rely on a HE Spammer to disable the target's AA.   Thats right, Getting hit repeatedly by HE will reduce the "Readiness" of the AA Crew  by disabling gun emplacements. 

 

Here comes into fact the Cruiser class identity. As supports, their AA "Readiness" Will increase not only while they are under threat, but if any plane is in range. In addition, their readiness will improve at a faster rate than other ships.

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[PARAZ]
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The issue I see with this is that... well, what does it actually change? Even if you can see the CV, what difference does it make when you cannot reach him when he's sitting at 25+km?

Or heck, what if I just purposefully draw fire with topkek armored deck and laugh as all the shells bounce?

 

Tbh shoehorning CVs into the same playstyle as any other class is impractical, if not outright impossible. Their function is just so different compared to surface ships that you will inevitably create a minigame inside WoWs out of it whether you like it or not.

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[THESO]
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33 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

The issue I see with this is that... well, what does it actually change? Even if you can see the CV, what difference does it make when you cannot reach him when he's sitting at 25+km?

Or heck, what if I just purposefully draw fire with topkek armored deck and laugh as all the shells bounce?

 

Tbh shoehorning CVs into the same playstyle as any other class is impractical, if not outright impossible. Their function is just so different compared to surface ships that you will inevitably create a minigame inside WoWs out of it whether you like it or not.

 

1.

Currently the main Reason I dont Shoot CVs.

Is because I rarely get further Shots in.

 

But if the CV is Spotted most of the Time ir has to Stop using Planes.

This would Change.

 

And CVs cant Repair.

So even if they only take little Damage.

They will be Sunk.

 

2.

If it Forces a CV to stay at 25km Range that is already a Plus.

Cause then he needs longer for Attacks :)

 

3.

Armored Decks might pose a Problem in T10.

But below that most CVs dont have one.

And while Armored Deck can be Tricky.

It will not Protect from all Damage.

Especially because the CV would have to Angle or go Bow in to Minimize Risk of getting Side Armor Hits.

Meaning the CVs ability to move around would be Hampered Considerably while using Planes.

 

 

 

Its a Subtle Nerf.

But it might be Surprisingly Effective.

As BBs and Cruisers might sneak Good Hits every now and then.

Forcing the CV to stop using Planes and Relocate first :)

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[R4A]
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Sorry but this CV complaints really got bored. They've eaten nerf many times, you're still complaining. In the past, she could sink a battleship in an attack (as in real life), now only dealing as much damage as a fly bite. I also play with other ships other than CV, but I'm not complaining at all. Please, enough.

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[HAMAR]
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Just got ap nerf, and are going to get spotting nerf soon.

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3 minutes ago, Puffin_ said:

Just got ap nerf, and are going to get spotting nerf soon.

Which isn't going to make the gameplay more fun, just more frustrating.

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[DREAD]
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Doesn’t do anything really (for the guys hiding as far back as possible) other than removing some interesting aspects for the CV (moving up with the fleet).

 

So thanks but no thanks 

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[THESO]
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3 hours ago, KHS01 said:

Sorry but this CV complaints really got bored. They've eaten nerf many times, you're still complaining. In the past, she could sink a battleship in an attack (as in real life), now only dealing as much damage as a fly bite. I also play with other ships other than CV, but I'm not complaining at all. Please, enough.

 

1.

CV Apologists are not exactly more Exiting.

2.

They are still Ridiculously Overpowered. So Yes People are still Complaining.

Get used to it. Because it will never Stop until CVs are Properly Balanced.

3.

In Reality ANY Ship could Sink a Battleship in a Single Hit.

By the way. A Battleship could also Sink a Carrier in a Single Hit.

Thing is. Such Lucky Hits were Rare.

And the Truth is. That the Prime Example you CV Apologists like to bring up.

The Yamato being sunk by Aircraft Carriers.

Was an Massive Event of 11 Carriers Forming Strike Waves with over 400 Aircraft to keep Striking the Yamato for several Hours.

So much for Reality where you needed 11 Carriers to Sink a Battleship....

4.

So Yeah. Pls stop Defending CVs. They are still Extremely Overpowered.

The Joke is. Even Wargaming knows Perfectly that CVs are Overpowered and a Completely Frustrating Experience.

Hence as they know that being Fodder for CV doesnt Sell. All of the New Ships added usually come with Absurd Levels of Anti Air or with Smoke or other Abilities to make them Hard to kill for CVs.

The only Reason WG doesnt Nerf CVs into the Ground is because being Overpowered is the only Redeeming Feature of CVs.

Because they are Extremely Boring to Play and Generally extremely Repetetive. Hence pretty much no one really Playing them for Fun unless its the Fun of Frustrating others and abusing the Fact that they are Overpowered to Pad their Stats....

 

 

2 hours ago, Puffin_ said:

Just got ap nerf, and are going to get spotting nerf soon.

 

AP Nerf is without Consequence as it was barely a Small Damage Reduction which isnt even worth Mentioning.

Especially as CVs partially got Buffed on Hitrate instead which basicly Compensates this "Nerf" because even tough you effectively lost some k worth of Damage on the Super RNG Lucky Strikes were you got all Bombs Citadels.

But the 1/2 to 2/3 Citadel Strikes got easier and more Common instead.

 

Spotting Nerf is not even Confirmed yet. It was an Idea by WG. One of many that came up and then was never heard from again.

 

2 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Doesn’t do anything really (for the guys hiding as far back as possible) other than removing some interesting aspects for the CV (moving up with the fleet).

 

So thanks but no thanks 

 

A Hardcore CV Apologist like you. Which is known to Defend CVs to the Death regardless of how Ridiculous and Unreasonable his Claims are. Not liking this Idea of Mine.

Is an Honor to me and Clearly Confirms that this Idea is Great and would indeed Help to make CVs less Overpowered.

 

56 minutes ago, Puffin_ said:

Universal truth about CV   Number 2

 

 

 

The same was said about RTS before. So this is completely Meaningless.

But more Importandly. It is completely Off Topic as this Topic is about an Idea on Fixing CVs and making them more Balanced.

Not about Removing them.

So the Video is entirely Inconsequential to this Topic.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Ashardalon_Dragnipur said:

until plane regen gets low enough that losing planes to aa actually does something

nothing will matter 

its not going to happen

 

Actually this Idea here might Matter.

If a CV gets Spotted each time he Launches Planes. And thus will each time have the Risk of eating one or several Salvos from BBs.

This means he will be Forced to either go Silent and Reposition without Launching Planes. Effectively Reducing his Strikes even tough he still has Planes.

Or will result in him being Killed. And thus no longer being there to Launch Planes.

 

Because CVs while clearly more Tanky than they should be.

Do not have any Heals or other ways of repairing Damage.

So even if he only take 2-5k Damage each time he is Spotted. He might be Dead after launching 6 Squadrons.

Because he got Spotted each Time he Launches a Squadron. And also each time a Squadron Lands.

Meaning most Squadrons will get him Spotted at least 2-3 Times.

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[GURKA]
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Sounds a bit pretty weird, when a CV gets magically spotted, because planes attack/return. CV would even more move to the border and then they have no risk, just more delay.

I don't see an issue with this kind of game design, that a CV doesn't have to risk his hull. That type of class exists in many games of different genres.

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1 hour ago, Puffin_ said:

Universal truth about CV   Number 2

 

 

Man I really dont like Zoup. Never have. Using the silent majority as a witness. ÷Many players that dont read reddit like carriers in fact a lot of players like them, new players like them.÷ I heard somewhere as much as 4% much. And absolutely, new players decide en masse to either quit or start playing carrier after being shat on endlessly by 2 enemy carriers. Self fulfilling prophecy much? :Smile_sceptic:

 

Its weird the silent majority always seems to magically support whoever brings them into a discussion. Silently. :Smile_amazed:

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43 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That type of class exists in many games of different genres.

 

Which is typically balanced out by having next to no match impact.

Unlike CVs which have the highest match impact by far.

Thus you're ironically pointing out how utterly flawed the rework is. Thanks for making our point I suppose.

 

56 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

This means he will be Forced to either go Silent and Reposition without Launching Planes. Effectively Reducing his Strikes even tough he still has Planes.

Or will result in him being Killed. And thus no longer being there to Launch Planes.

 

Honestly at that point you might as well remove the CV from the map altogether and have planes fly in from the map border.

This solves a couple of issues with current CVs:

1. CVs can no longer clutch matches on their own.

2. Plane reserves practically become the actual HP pool.

3. It would cut down both damage and spotting which is sorely needed.

4. It'd make decisionmaking a lot more meaningful as you'll be spending a lot of time flying in rather than the braindead plane spam we have now.

 

Concealment bloom meanwhile will obviously kill only the incompetent CV players, making the skill gap even larger than it already is. I rarely position myself closer than 20km to the enemy, if even that on open water and if I'm behind cover it doesn't matter anymore whether I'm spotted or not anyway.

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[SPURD]
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Just rework them again. The current CV gameplay is really boring, if it gets balanced nobody will want to play them. 

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56 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

if it gets balanced nobody will want to play them. 

You say that like its a bad thing o.O

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[NWP]
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Enough islands to hide behind. So then all you do is give away your position.

Honestly, they may have many flaws. But this aint one of them.

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There are several ideas out there.

My fav. are:

 

- delay first wave for 30 secs

- add spotter consumable (spots for the team)

- squads / fighters spot only for CV (team sees enemies only on mini map, same as cyclone mechanics)

- limit planes to consumables (reserve)

- add secondaries and good AA to all CVs (to eliminate CV snipes and DD rushes and to open up ship gameplay once reserves are gone)

- lower CV stealth detection

- def AA on ships should also panic squads as it used to, making the targeting cone max width (as when maneuvering squads with wasd)

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[ALYEN]
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this is a dumb idea ... from both gameplay and "realism" perspective. there are better options ...

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[HELLN]
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What grinds my gears with all this CV ridiculousness is that they already have a mechanic in place to keep CV's in check. Plane reserves.

If WG really wanted CV's to be a skillful class and not a 'look ma, no hands' OP class as it is right now, all they needed to do is tune the plane replenishment rates to values that losing planes actually MATTERS. Then AA would have meaning in this game and spamming rocket planes to kill DDs won't be so easy etc. You get the idea.

Instead of actually tuning the class, they are willing to add ridiculous things like changing air detectability, adding AP rockets which introduce a whole now problem to the game and so on. It's pretty obvious at this point that they simply want to keep the class OP so that it keeps its population numbers, attracting the crowd that wants to pad stats or rack up kills with no danger of getting killed and so on.

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14 ore fa, Kazomir ha scritto:

What the problem is with CV's and soon Submarines and even Arty in WoT is - If they are focused on you, there is nothing you can do, your day is ruined. They also do not rely on any other class in the game, like a BB relies on a DD for forward spotting.

 

What should be made in order to force CVs to switch targets is to introduce AA Resistance and Readiness. What is that? The more you are attacked by planes, the more "Experienced" your AA Crews get at shooting down planes. How do CV's deal with this? Switch targets to wait for your readiness to coll down, or rely on a HE Spammer to disable the target's AA.   Thats right, Getting hit repeatedly by HE will reduce the "Readiness" of the AA Crew  by disabling gun emplacements. 

 

Here comes into fact the Cruiser class identity. As supports, their AA "Readiness" Will increase not only while they are under threat, but if any plane is in range. In addition, their readiness will improve at a faster rate than other ships.

This this this this

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[THESO]
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7 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Which is typically balanced out by having next to no match impact.

Unlike CVs which have the highest match impact by far.

Thus you're ironically pointing out how utterly flawed the rework is. Thanks for making our point I suppose.

 

 

Honestly at that point you might as well remove the CV from the map altogether and have planes fly in from the map border.

This solves a couple of issues with current CVs:

1. CVs can no longer clutch matches on their own.

2. Plane reserves practically become the actual HP pool.

3. It would cut down both damage and spotting which is sorely needed.

4. It'd make decisionmaking a lot more meaningful as you'll be spending a lot of time flying in rather than the braindead plane spam we have now.

 

Concealment bloom meanwhile will obviously kill only the incompetent CV players, making the skill gap even larger than it already is. I rarely position myself closer than 20km to the enemy, if even that on open water and if I'm behind cover it doesn't matter anymore whether I'm spotted or not anyway.

 

I made a Similar Suggestion on that as well. Because I find it meaningless to have the CV on the Map when he will mostly just drag out the Match due to Sitting in some Corner.

Especially because then you could use Limited Planes again and if the CV has used up his Planes he would Simply be counted as dead.

 

As for Cover. There rarely is Cover that will Protect 100% against all Directions.

And Yes. Skill Gap will Grow Larger.

 

But lets be Honest here Mate.

Literally Anything that Balances CVs would result in Incompetent CV Players becoming even more useless.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Sounds a bit pretty weird, when a CV gets magically spotted, because planes attack/return. CV would even more move to the border and then they have no risk, just more delay.

I don't see an issue with this kind of game design, that a CV doesn't have to risk his hull. That type of class exists in many games of different genres.

 

Funny enough. It is actually less Weird than the Current Mechanic that Firing your Main Guns gives away your Position.

Because in Reality it was Possible to Spot Aircraft Groups beyond 10km Distance. So You could Follow that to a Carrier if you happened to Observe them going down towards the Carrier.

People tend to not Realise that because Planes are Generally so Small compared to the Ships. But even Small Fighter Planes got Wingspans of 10m and more. Paired with an large Surface Area of Wings. Which actually gives them a Bigger Visual Surface Area than most Bow in Destroyers. And as Aircraft are up in the Air where there is less Interference from Water. And due to Aircraft Moving fairly Fast which causes our Eyes to Pick them up much easier than the Slow Moving Ship between the Waves. They are Surprisingly easy to Spot even on High Distances.

On Clear Weather a Person can actually make out Aircraft on way over 30km Distance thanks to that.

 

 

Meanwhile Firing the Main Guns would not really change wether or not you See a Ship. Because the Guns at this Range would not Increase the Height of the Ship and thus not make it any easier to Spot for an Enemy.

The only thing possibly giving away the Position would be if the Ship is already in Spotting Range anyways and Fires when the Lookout is looking there. Thus him Realizing that the thing he is looking at is actually a Ship.

 

 

But Spotting in this Ship is Unrealistic in the First Place. In Reality Spotting a Ship depended on both the Height of the Lookout and the Height of the Enemy Ship.

Meaning that Fuso thanks to its Giant Tower was actually not just easier to Spot but was also Capable of Spotting Enemies much further away. Thanks to have a Higher Lookout Position.

But giving each Ship a Modifier to its Spotting Range was likely too Complicated. So in this Game its Purely based on the Ship itself.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

Enough islands to hide behind. So then all you do is give away your position.

Honestly, they may have many flaws. But this aint one of them.

 

There is extremely Few islands which Provide enough Cover to keep you Safe all Game.

And if you go there. And the Enemy comes around that way. You are again at this Point that you have to Reposition without Launching Aircraft cause otherwise you will be Spotted and Deleted.

 

Dont Forget. This Idea is not Supposed to Kill Aircraft Carriers.

If they Find an Island from where they are Launch Aircraft without being Hit for now. Thats Perfectly Fine.

Just like an HE Spamming Cruiser using an Island as Cover.

 

But just like that Cruiser there will come the Point where he might need to move. And just like that Cruiser. While moving he will have to Stop Launching Planes if he doesnt want to Risk being Killed himself. :)

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

this is a dumb idea ... from both gameplay and "realism" perspective. there are better options ...

 

You are always Welcome to Share your own Great Ideas Mate.

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Bowmangr said:

What grinds my gears with all this CV ridiculousness is that they already have a mechanic in place to keep CV's in check. Plane reserves.

If WG really wanted CV's to be a skillful class and not a 'look ma, no hands' OP class as it is right now, all they needed to do is tune the plane replenishment rates to values that losing planes actually MATTERS. Then AA would have meaning in this game and spamming rocket planes to kill DDs won't be so easy etc. You get the idea.

Instead of actually tuning the class, they are willing to add ridiculous things like changing air detectability, adding AP rockets which introduce a whole now problem to the game and so on. It's pretty obvious at this point that they simply want to keep the class OP so that it keeps its population numbers, attracting the crowd that wants to pad stats or rack up kills with no danger of getting killed and so on.

 

There is many Ways to Deal with the CV Issue.

Plane Reserves is one.

Giving Planes a Fuel Capacity and thus a Limited Air Time is another one.

 

But the thing is. Currently CV Gameplay is Incredible Boring and Repetetive.

There really isnt much Fun in Playing a CV.

Their only Redeeming Feature is that they are Extremely Overpowered and thus Allow for Easy Statpadding.

 

And WG worries that Balancing CVs will thus Instantly cause them to become a barely Played Class again.

Of course WG is also Aware that being Targeted by a CV is extremely Frustrating and causing Players to Leave the Game.

So almost all new Ships have vastly better AA or other Tools like Smoke etc. To Deal with CVs and make sure that new Ships dont Suffer from CVs too much so People buy them.

Z35 is a good Example. That Ship is pretty much useless for most Part. But it comes with Fast Reloading Smoke. Which allows it to Operate in a CV Game.

New Russian Cruisers all have Absurd Long Range Anti Air....

Italian Cruisers got Smoke while moving etc etc.

 

WG is basicly trying to somehow Balance CVs in Tiny Baby Steps as to not cause the CV Players to Abandon the Class hoping these CV Players will not notice any Big Changes that makes them leave.

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[PISH]
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I do wonder why people don't look at the skills and modules that make up an AA build and propose changes there. A ship without an AA spec shouldn't be too damaging to plabe reserves.

 

Also something everyone is missing. Historically CVs were targeting and bombing each other with extreme prejudice. So tweak the numbers. Have air strikes do more damage to CVs. Say for example negative torpedo resistance. That way the CV either invests in his AA or has to move with the fleet for air cover.

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7 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

I rarely position myself closer than 20km to the enemy

Wuss.

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