IFHE for RN heavy cruisers?

[Measuperbia]

What topic says...

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

Why?

[Measuperbia]

Okay.. Does the HE get any significant improvement from it? Or is it just a waste?

[Panocek]

Let me repeat counter question: why?

 

If you somehow keep bumping into USN T8+ battleships, Vladdy or odd Riga, then I suppose it makes sense. On 234mm armed cruisers its literally "fluff you Kremlin" option, as its the only ship it would make difference. And scoring citadels with HE against Smolensk, but you already overmatch that with AP.

 

2 minutes ago, Measuperbia said:

Okay.. Does the HE get any significant improvement from it? Or is it just a waste?

Improves HE pen by 25%, just as description says. Whether you can actually make use of improved pen is another matter and then you have major fire chance penalty.

[Jvd2000]

4 minutes ago, Measuperbia said:

Okay.. Does the HE get any significant improvement from it? Or is it just a waste?

IFHE for the regular 203’s is not advised. Henri VI with its 240’s used to have IFHE usability. So might still be also usefull for the 234 UK CA’s too. But not sure how much the IFHE rework changed the usability of IFHE in combination with 240’s/234

[Measuperbia]

Ok, thanks guys! (This is how bad my math is)

[fumtu]

With IFHE, 234mm HE pen goes from 59mm to 73mm. This will allow you to pen Soviet BBs 60mm deck and Smolensk citadel but your fire change went down from 24% to just 12%. So if you meet a lot , I mean a looooot, of Soviet BBs and Smolensk it could be worth but if you don't than it is just a waste of 4 points. IMO it is not worth it. 

[Procrastes]

I believe that the Gospel of IFHE is already written, by the esteemed Little White Mouse:

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/213359-ifhe-all-night-long/ 

 

[doerhoff_damian]

190mm Hawkins

without IFHE: 190/6=31,67 You can pen 31mm

with IFHE:  190/6*1,25=39,58 You can pen 39mm

Hawkins only meets Ships with 26mm Plating. No Benefit.

203mm Guns

Without IFHE: 203/6=33,8 You can pen 33mm

With IFHE: 203/6*1,25=42,29 You can pen 42mm

You can Pen the 32mm Plating without IFHE

Only Useful against 38mm Plating you can find only on High Tier US Battleships.

Not Worth 4 Points and a Nerf for the Fire Chance.

 

[Beastofwar]

44 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

I believe that the Gospel of IFHE is already written, by the esteemed Little White Mouse:

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/213359-ifhe-all-night-long/ 

 

 

She hates secondaries and makes no mention of their armour penetrating thesholds though.....

 

But that does not really apply to Cruisers main guns anyway, although their secondaries can still help kill DD faster but only really "need" more range and ROF and not (full) secondary builds.....

 

She ignores Cruiser caliber secondaries on larger ships though. Very interesting armour thresholds to exceed there.

[Procrastes]

35 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

She hates secondaries and makes no mention of their armour penetrating thesholds though.....

 

But that does not really apply to Cruisers main guns anyway, although their secondaries can still help kill DD faster but only really "need" more range and ROF and not (full) secondary builds.....

 

She ignores Cruiser caliber secondaries on larger ships though. Very interesting armour thresholds to exceed there.

I'm not saying that you are wrong - on the contrary, and judging solely from your post that I've quoted here, I'd say that you know a lot more about these things than I do. But from what I can recall, LWM usually recommends a secondary build on relevant ships mostly "for the fun value", and in spite of such a build being (according to her) less efficient if it just comes to winning the battle. And I also seem to have read somewhere that an IFHE build with the single aim of bolstering the secondaries, is no longer considered to be worth it even on such a ship as the Massachusetts - but I'm not sure if this was LWM:s opinion, or whether I read it somewhere else.

 

Whatever the case may be, these evaluations tend to have as much to do with one's own personal playstyle as they do with straight up math and computation. As for me, I have neither the inclination nor the patience to do all the math and comparisons on my own - which is why I am so very grateful to people like Little White Mouse, who are gracious enough to do it for the benefit of everyone.

 

For the record, I agree that cruisers bear watching. WG seems to have begun experimenting with giving some cruisers worthwhile secondaries, as of late. I wonder where that trail might lead...?

 

Cheers!

[lafeel]

Definetly don't need it for the 234's, while we're at it, they have 59mm(!) of he pen without.

[Beastofwar]

1 hour ago, Procrastes said:

I'm not saying that you are wrong - on the contrary, and judging solely from your post that I've quoted here, I'd say that you know a lot more about these things than I do. But from what I can recall, LWM usually recommends a secondary build on relevant ships mostly "for the fun value", and in spite of such a build being (according to her) less efficient if it just comes to winning the battle. And I also seem to have read somewhere that an IFHE build with the single aim of bolstering the secondaries, is no longer considered to be worth it even on such a ship as the Massachusetts - but I'm not sure if this was LWM:s opinion, or whether I read it somewhere else.

 

Whatever the case may be, these evaluations tend to have as much to do with one's own personal playstyle as they do with straight up math and computation. As for me, I have neither the inclination nor the patience to do all the math and comparisons on my own - which is why I am so very grateful to people like Little White Mouse, who are gracious enough to do it for the benefit of everyone.

 

For the record, I agree that cruisers bear watching. WG seems to have begun experimenting with giving some cruisers worthwhile secondaries, as of late. I wonder where that trail might lead...?

 

Cheers!

 

A lot of players/forummers/CC are stuck in the "If it isn't competitive, its trash" mode. And that goes for all modules and skills they dont use too. LWM is more likable and polite however. And has a lot of knowledge and insight about new ships i like to read about.

 

A lot of her findings turn out to be correct but ships she hates not rarely become my favorits.

 

That is not how i play the game. I think WG designed and tuned  all ships with a purpose in mind. I like to find that purpose, suit tactics to it and enjoy it. Discarding it as "trash" because it does not suit MY playstyle is not in my book.

 

 

[159Hunter]

What fumtu said. Not worth it.

[HaachamaShipping]

Definitely no. You will never meet enough ships to warrant it. It is pretty safe to ignore HE cits as a desired outcome, because anything you can HE citpen is so crappily armoured your AP will likely suffice. Especially Smolensk that gets overmatched. As for beating BBs, even if you run into all the Kremlins, the loss in fire chance is just too brutal. These ships have poor dpm. They supplement it with their high fire chance per shell. If you have poor dpm and poor fire chance, why are you playing this? And against anything not a Kremlin or Soyuz, the pen is wasted. Even a Hindenburg gets more from IFHE, being also able to add Yamato and sisters to the list of ships it can pen.

[Beastofwar]

Well this won't overpenetrate....at any angle....

 

 

 

 

[HaachamaShipping]

6 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Well this won't overpenetrate....at any angle....

 

 

 

 

When you think Cheshire couldn't become any worse in damage output...

[ollonborre]

As others already pointed out, unless you plan to go for the Goliath in clan battles the benefit of IFHE is not really worth it in random games. 

[Kartoffelmos]

6 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Well this won't overpenetrate....at any angle....

 

HE shells never overpenetrate anyway... at any angle.

Besides, increasing the penetration from 58 mm is not really all that efficient since your combined damage against all non-Soviet/Russian battleships will decrease.

[HaachamaShipping]

Just now, ollonborre said:

As others already pointed out, unless you plan to go for the Goliath in clan battles the benefit of IFHE is not really worth it in random games. 

Not sure if you'd really want IFHE Goliath in CB over any of the other options really.

[Miragetank90]

7 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Well this won't overpenetrate....at any angle....

 

And in exchange for being able to cit smol with HE, your firechance got massacred, and on a ship which lacks the volume of HE to help make up for it. Unlike say, Wooster(which also crosses an important pen threshold with IFHE, unlike so)

 

Was it worth it? 

[Miragetank90]

1 minute ago, HaachamaShipping said:

Not sure if you'd really want IFHE Goliath in CB over any of the other options really.

 

Goliath is actually not too bad there, just not with IFHE 

[ollonborre]

1 minute ago, HaachamaShipping said:

Not sure if you'd really want IFHE Goliath in CB over any of the other options really.

Meh not really, we tried it in the last season and since the most common BB was the Kremlin it worked in those matchups, and the Goliath does offer some more HP to be drained.

 

But that is once of the very few reasons where IFHE Goliath could be considered good. In randoms I think it is more of a meme and not nearly as effective as let's say IFHE HIV.

[Beastofwar]

21 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

 

And in exchange for being able to cit smol with HE, your firechance got massacred, and on a ship which lacks the volume of HE to help make up for it. Unlike say, Wooster(which also crosses an important pen threshold with IFHE, unlike so)

 

Was it worth it? 

 

Hard to tell....still experimenting with such stuff.

 

The DE build was not very convincing though......what are you doing then ? Working against the "survivability build" almost all other players go by ? Supposedly that makes them less suceptible to fire.....

 

 

 

 

[HaachamaShipping]

9 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

 

Goliath is actually not too bad there, just not with IFHE 

Yeah, but with IFHE, really don't see the point.

7 minutes ago, ollonborre said:

Meh not really, we tried it in the last season and since the most common BB was the Kremlin it worked in those matchups, and the Goliath does offer some more HP to be drained.

 

But that is once of the very few reasons where IFHE Goliath could be considered good. In randoms I think it is more of a meme and not nearly as effective as let's say IFHE HIV.

Goliath has some of the lowest dpm of any T10 cruiser, as well as poor base range. Goliath as a dedicated Kremlin killer makes less sense, imo, than using any of the other options, like IFHE Hindenburg and IFHE Yoshino. Hindenburg gives better range and much better dpm, Yoshino gives comparable dpm on a much better range or better dpm on better range if Goliath uses range mod. Yoshino vs Kremlin also is, imo, tankier, has 20 km torp wall and way bigger AP threat. I doubt I'd run any of them just to counter Kremlin, but even for meme Kremlin counters, Goliath would not be my top pick.