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xxNihilanxx

Can anyone explain this? (how does the MM decide on class distribution for games?)

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shot-20_07.24_02_15.21-0279.thumb.jpg.1df8fc1a5d82ee75a94bc29719ec6f0a.jpg

 

As you can see from the above screenshot there is something weird going on with the MM that I can't wrap my head around.

 

I had been waiting in the queue for almost 50 seconds watching the player count climb ever higher but for some reason the MM wasn't creating a game. As you can see I have a T10 ship picked so all of the "Players within your range" should be eligible to enter the same battle. Obviously at lower tiers the above is possible as some of the ships could be two tiers lower than my selection and others two tiers higher so not all eligible to join the same match as you can't have a four-tier spread but at T10 any player within my range must be T8-T10. So why did the MM still not start the battle despite there being two matches worth of players? I actually waited about another 20 seconds after the screenshot and the number actually climbed a little higher to >50 players before I quit out to make this thread.

 

Thinking it through we can ignore the CVs as one could have been T8 and the other T10 so that leaves 46 players.

Assuming a softcap of 5BBs per side there are more than enough BBs to create a balanced team.

This leaves 14 possible places and 24 ships to fill those slots, 11 cruisers and 13 DDs. There is no way that I can see that two balanced teams could not have been made given the numbers involved.

 

What exactly was the MM waiting for?

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28 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

What exactly was the MM waiting for?

Do I remember something about MM being tweaked to wait a bit to avoid games with hapless T8s all on their own against a horde of diabolical T10s? It could be something along those lines...?

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14 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Do I remember something about MM being tweaked to wait a bit to avoid games with hapless T8s all on their own against a horde of diabolical T10s? It could be something along those lines...?

 

Maybe so but there are enough people for two matches so if a load of them had been T8 surely it would have created a match for them and left me in the queue with the other T9/T10 folk. The queue numbers never went down in the whole time I was waiting, only up, so it's not like another game formed in the meantime.

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1 hour ago, xxNihilanxx said:

there are more than enough BBs to create a balanced team.

you assume the MM wants that while it may be it searched for exactly the opposite

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Edited title to make it more clear. 

Again, please try to make titles clear and not clickbait. The title should express what the thread is about.

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Some clanmate told me that is something related to gun caliber involved, not just ship classes or tiers. 

 

(He sent a ticket to support for the same reason you are asking). 

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I think this is because of the way the matchmaker works. Please keep in mind that most of what follows is speculation and me trying to remember stuff I read in patchnotes over the last 3 years and such.

 

What the matchmaker does is look at the ship that's been in the que the longest and it creates a game with that ship. Then it starts adding ships to that list to see if it can get a game going that follows all the Matchmaker rules that are set. (so balanced amount of BB's cruiser and DD's. Preferring to keep T8's together etc etc)

Because of the two CV's most of your que is probably already allocated to a game that wants to start but needs another CV. (assuming a T8 and a T10 CV that have been in the que the longest)

 

So yes. If the que ignores some players it could very easily get at least 1 game going straight away. But instead it keeps you waiting for a bit trying to get the game going for the poor guy that has been in the que the longest.

 

In other words: it's a que ... you need to wait your turn :)

 

If you are in que longer then X amount of time, the MM will start cutting corners. And after Y amount of time even more corners. Up to a certain time limit where it just starts a game with whatever is has available. This causes some America server games to be 7 vs 8 if you play in the middle of the night.

 

Edit: also there are too many BB's in que right now.

You can only have 5 BB's per team per game (unless the wait becomes really long) so max 20 BBs can be included in the two games it want to make. Meaning the effective que is only 46 ships since the last two BBs get ignored for MM purposes at this point.

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What did the game look like when it started? TX only? T9-10 or even T8-10?

Ever since they changed the MM, so you wont be lowtier constantly, the queue seems to be a bit bigger than it used to.

This could mean, not all T8-9 ships were eligible to be put into TX game. Or there were no TX BBs (highly doubt that) to match yours.

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9 hours ago, xxNihilanxx said:

What exactly was the MM waiting for?

 

WG's MM seems to be patented technology. What it exactly does is always debated and bickered endlessly over but not made public.

 

Observing what is actually does - and not does - will produce a rough estimation of it's workings. That is what real scientist do when observing the universe too.....and they often need to adjust their findings anyway.:Smile_teethhappy:

 

You seem to conclude although the ship tiers and class requirments are met MM still does not produce a match. A program will not "wait" for no reason. There clearly are other requirements that are not met yet.

 

All one needs to know, really.....

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Hummus said:

I think this is because of the way the matchmaker works. Please keep in mind that most of what follows is speculation and me trying to remember stuff I read in patchnotes over the last 3 years and such.

 

What the matchmaker does is look at the ship that's been in the que the longest and it creates a game with that ship. Then it starts adding ships to that list to see if it can get a game going that follows all the Matchmaker rules that are set. (so balanced amount of BB's cruiser and DD's. Preferring to keep T8's together etc etc)

Because of the two CV's most of your que is probably already allocated to a game that wants to start but needs another CV. (assuming a T8 and a T10 CV that have been in the que the longest)

 

So yes. If the que ignores some players it could very easily get at least 1 game going straight away. But instead it keeps you waiting for a bit trying to get the game going for the poor guy that has been in the que the longest.

 

In other words: it's a que ... you need to wait your turn :)

 

If you are in que longer then X amount of time, the MM will start cutting corners. And after Y amount of time even more corners. Up to a certain time limit where it just starts a game with whatever is has available. This causes some America server games to be 7 vs 8 if you play in the middle of the night.

 

Edit: also there are too many BB's in que right now.

You can only have 5 BB's per team per game (unless the wait becomes really long) so max 20 BBs can be included in the two games it want to make. Meaning the effective que is only 46 ships since the last two BBs get ignored for MM purposes at this point.

 

That would make perfect sense but for the fact that the two CVs were very recent additions to the queue. For the first 40 seconds it looked like I was going to enjoy a no-CV game.

 

When I joined the queue there were 22 players in the queue with no CVs. I watched as the number climbed past 24 but knew at that point why the game had not started (odd number values for both Cruisers and DDs). As the number grew higher I could work out in my head at each stage possible reasons as to why the match was not starting but after a while, as the number grew still higher, all of those possibile reasons vanished one by one.

 

I can understand that the MM may well have been trying to form a match for the earliest person to join the queue and that may well not have meant me but the numbers involved meant that another match should have started and the queue numbers dropped as a result, but no the number kept climbing. It actually reached 54 before I quit out to make the OP as by that time I was more interested in understanding the solution than I was in playing Warships.

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1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

What did the game look like when it started? TX only? T9-10 or even T8-10?

 

No idea. I quit the game to make the OP.

 

Quote

Ever since they changed the MM, so you wont be lowtier constantly, the queue seems to be a bit bigger than it used to.

 

Yes, I have noticed this and accounted for this as one of the possible reasons as to why the match did not start at a lower number of players in the queue.

 

Quote

This could mean, not all T8-9 ships were eligible to be put into TX game. Or there were no TX BBs (highly doubt that) to match yours.

 

It is entirely possible, though as you say highly unlikely, that I was the only T10 BB in the queue but this does not account for why a match did not form without me.

 

As an "Aspie" I often (ahem... always... don't kid yourself) watch the queue numbers and have always been able to figure out why the match was not starting at any given point. This is the first time I have been stumped, hence coming to the forum with what is ultimately an entirely pointless thread - purely because my inability to understand it made my brain itch and I wondered if anyone else could figure it out.

 

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Before the CV rework I thought I had grasped how the MM acted, but currently I'm not so sure.

 

Back then I noticed that the "players within your range" counter's numbers reflected how many of them are from your own tier (first number, numerator, etc.) and how many there are from all/other tiers (I'm inclined to think it's the latter option) you could end up against (second number, denominator...). All of that worked (or appeared to work) fancy with CVs in all tiers, but now you can see carriers listed in queue even if you're on an odd-tier ship. Leaving that aside, the proof that my observations still hold some ground is that you can get into a battle with CVs (although not from your same tier) with none shown in the queue, unless they entered at the same time and were assigned immediately to a match. This shouldn't affect queue times though, or at least not that much.

 

It might be that what is screwing the MM timing is the number and composition of divisions since they put another element to account for. It's really hard nowadays to find yourself in a high tier battle were no divs are present, and matches where 2 of them per team are present aren't that uncommon. If the MM has to try to mirror them first before relaxing requirements, it'll increase the waiting for everyone.

 

Salute.

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5 minutes ago, Estaca_de_Bares said:

Before the CV rework I thought I had grasped how the MM acted, but currently I'm not so sure.

 

Back then I noticed that the "players within your range" counter's numbers reflected how many of them are from your own tier (first number, numerator, etc.) and how many there are from all/other tiers (I'm inclined to think it's the latter option) you could end up against (second number, denominator...). All of that worked (or appeared to work) fancy with CVs in all tiers, but now you can see carriers listed in queue even if you're on an odd-tier ship.

 

This is not how I understand it to be. In the screenshot it shows 48/99 and as I understand it that means there are 48 players within two tiers of me in either direction out of 99 players in total currently queueing. This tallies with the class figures shown - 2 CVs + 22BBs + 11 CA/CLs + 13 DDs = 48 ships in total. This is the pool of available ships that can enter the same match as me. The remaining 51players (99-48) are queueing in ships outside of the two tier range. This is why you will see CVs in the queue even if you are in an odd tier ship as the two-tier range will still include even number tiers.

 

5 minutes ago, Estaca_de_Bares said:

 

 

Leaving that aside, the proof that my observations still hold some ground is that you can get into a battle with CVs (although not from your same tier) with none shown in the queue, unless they entered at the same time and were assigned immediately to a match. This shouldn't affect queue times though, or at least not that much.

 

From what I have seen the queue numbers are not entirely "real-time" but rather the counter has a refresh interval of a few seconds and this is why you can get into matches with CVs when there were none shown in the queue because the CVs joined the queue between one refresh and the next with the match starting before the latter refresh interval was met.

 

5 minutes ago, Estaca_de_Bares said:

 

It might be that what is screwing the MM timing is the number and composition of divisions since they put another element to account for. It's really hard nowadays to find yourself in a high tier battle were no divs are present, and matches where 2 of them per team are present aren't that uncommon. If the MM has to try to mirror them first before relaxing requirements, it'll increase the waiting for everyone.

 

Salute.

 

I had division disparity as one of the reasons the match didn't start earlier but that too fell by the wayside as the numbers climbed. If there was only one division queueing that is a maximum of 3 players to account for and it wasn't long before every permutation of a 3-ship division could be discounted as being the cause for the delay - the MM could have left out the division and started a match for everyone else. If there were two divisions the MM could put one on each side so no problem. This pattern can then continue with odd and even numbers of divisions in the queue.

 

From my experience the MM does not work on an entirely first-come-first-served basis as I have been in queue in a division in the past when the queue numbers were too low to create a match - thus we were quite early to the queue - and then watched as the numbers climbed and then dropped again as other matches were started before we got ours.

 

I was not concerned that I was waiting ages in the queue, I was puzzled that the figures increasingly made less and less sense as to why A match had not started. As I said in my OP at the mid tiers, where you can actually have +/- 2 tiers the permutations get somewhat complex and so the queue can grow quite large before a match can start but at T10 the +/-2 Tiers is effectively only -2 tiers as there are no T11 or T12 ships so the possible permutations become much simpler to calculate.

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