If the new KM CV line is the culmination of super testers and developers todeliver a fun experience you should reconsider the place of every person involved.

[Pappus]

If you do not listen to the super testers or they did not notice the problem, then remove this system. What is the point of creating a system that you either do not listen to or that cannot catch the problems. Either way you are wasting valuable development and art time that you could spend to create something actually fun for all involved instead.

 

If your creative developers come up with this (and honestly AP rocket is already not that heavy on the vision side), then just bring in a system where the community grades what they produce in terms of fun and if they get a failing grade, then you effectively wasted the money attached to the development even in other departments and thus should correctly vacant the responsible seat.

 

The Problem: The KM CV line is way too frustrating to play (at time)

 

Attack Aircraft:

• vs DDs it can either deliver 0 dmg (enemy dd puts nose or [edited]towards it) or 5k. Most often a good strike will be 1.5k-2k (which is still at an angle mind you).
• vs Cruisers that you can citadel it can deliver 20k+ strike (cits like neptune), but consistently 10-15k. 10k is what the Midway does and the requirement is BROADSIDE, flat. If the target angles 25°, then you are looking more at 3-5k and if he angles more then you are looking at 0 again.
• vs BBs you can aim for nose/superstructure or [edited]and the result can be decent. It is quite a diceroll which goes from 4k to 8k per strike. They will mostly not bother to turn away against you, but if they do you end up on the lower end of the spectrum.

 

Attack aircraft has the standard 10km detection rate and even if you bring it down to 8.1km the strike itself takes long and unless you have a mini-island (you don't pass over for the actual strike) your target will have AMPLE time to angle. AMPLE. This means that this strike craft can be fully countered since 0-1k dmg is really nothing. Not even for dds. Doesn't strip AA either, doesn't cause fires. Sometimes it knocks out a cruiser gun.

 

Torpedo Bombers:

• vs DDs that maneuver against you at best you get the central torpedo to hit. Which will be 3.5k damage before saturation. It of course is still spotted, but juicy triple torp strikes are somewhat reserved to high pressure situations for them or big blunders on their side.
• vs Cruisers it works decent. They can usually deny the first strike, but not the follow up strike so 4 torpedos for roughly 10k damage is a usual result. It obviously doesn't mean much for 40k HP cruisers but it gives you an option to somewhat finish them.
• vs BBs you usually hit 6 in two strikes and that nets you around 12k dmg. If you get a flooding on your first drop you can usually setup a long distance shot that will give you another chance at the flooding. However the flooding chance is very very low and you are not rewarded for well placed shots. It is laughable damage if you compare it to all other nations in this category though. For comparison a full midway drop is about 24k (another one would be coming) or a single Haku double torpedo will net you about 15k.

 

Those torpedos are designated as DD hunting weapon, but only in very wild dreams will that actually work out. Very wild dreams. There is no crossdropping them, there is no insane mobility. You get too little damage per torpedo. You cannot justify flying out 5 times for a DD. This combined with the Attack Aircraft means you have no effective deterrent against DDs. There is no magical line where they will vaporize if they cross it so somtimes you will suddenly find nests of 2-3 dds openly using their AA, because that is how unthreatened they are. They know of this lack of threat from the start so just because you picked KM CV you already burdened your team with more aggressive enemy DDs. They can be out much further without having to fear HE rocket double strikes that can cut them in half or lower.

 

For other nations the torpedo is the fallback weapon. With how it represents you still use it as fallback weapon, but it doesn't do a whole lot

 

AP-Bombers:

• vs DDs the only use is for really long spotting sessions against an enemy swedish DD.
• vs Cruisers they are unreliable and you can't approach their island in safety either. You have the heal, but a double drop against a high tier one is usually very unlikely and prone to overpens. The reticule is very large so it isn't that hard to miss the cit regardless of your aim and that is before evasive maneuvers are taken into consideration. The delay between the drop and hit is enough for it to turn 90° while the bombs are already on the way. If you drop all the way down, well they will still have the time to go 90°. Not very maneuverable, not very precise for a target of that size. I use it more in a pinch against them, since having them ready against BBs is also important.
• vs BBs, well those that you can cit it is okay. They can dodge very effectively aswell by doing a swivel motion. You cannot match that motion, because if you do you lose too much pen. You don't bring the AP bombers to triple pen, you bring them to triple cit. Sometimes you go at the enemy bismarck and get 6 cits, sometimes 2. how big the impact of 46500 dmg vs 20k dmg is I don't need to tell you.

 

Because they can be dodged so easily and are made out of paper (this means you have to hurry up your second strike) it will cost you many games where you just think. If only I was not on a german CV.

 

 

In fact that is something all strike craft have in common. Your damage can be mitigated to very high degrees and if you happen to be in a match that has bad target selection, careful (or aware) opponents you are rendered obsolete. You fly around, you spot and you will somehow end up with your 100k damage but it will feel like absolute torture. You will understand the entire match that the reason for this frustration is clicking on the KM CV instead of ANY other. People will fully mitigate your strikes again and again and again or RNG will decide against you or the target is simply something you are impotent against as a baseline. The good matches you have do not make up for being trapped into such a match for 20 minutes.

 

This is mostly said from the perspective of the Parseval. I have about 300 matches in that one and while the ap rockets and bombs might be less troublesome at tier 10 since you can never be uptiered the baseline problems will remain.

 

The KM CV is basically forced to play in tandem with the team, a team you have no control over. What they shoot or do not shoot is up to them. Even if they do capitalize on the dodge motion of the enemy, it is not very fun for yourself.

 

Congratulations WG you have created the most frustrating ship experience I have ever had in wows. I will also not be the only one. Why such a line makes its way into your game, past super testers, past your own testing is beyond me.

 

P.S. If you CV haters think that this is great, well then guess what people will remain on the midway and haku or enterprises and proceed to make your days miserable. You would not play a surface ship that automatically announces all its shots 10 seconds in advance and makes them dodge your shot either.

[ColonelPete]

Looks fine:

 

Looks fine:

 

Looks fine after first impression, but needs more players:

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20200718/eu_2month/average_ship_u.html

[El2aZeR]

19 minutes ago, Pappus said:

Congratulations WG you have created the most frustrating ship experience I have ever had in wows.

 

It is almost as if reworked CVs aren't any fun when they're balanced. 

 

20 minutes ago, Pappus said:

If you CV haters think that this is great, well then guess what people will remain on the midway and haku or enterprises and proceed to make your days miserable.

 

Then perhaps WG should nerf those down to the level of KM/RN CVs?

Oh wait, last time they even got close to that the rework died.

It is almost as if reworked CVs aren't any fun when they- oh wait. 

[DrMechano]

I'll put the KM CVs in with the RN CVs, they'll be people who HATE them and people who love them but the general population won't use them over the IJN for the higher, consistent, damage output or the USN CVs for ease of use (with lower damage output than the IJN but higher than the KM or RN CVs).

 

They're specialized CVs, the RN is focused on DoT, the KM are focused on AP, which is what puts them at a disadvantage compared to the first two CV nations. There are people who will do exceedingly well in them but they're never going to be as popular nor match the output of the two current kings.

 

Basically the problem is the IJN and US CVs are good at EVERYTHING, good bombs, good torps, decent enough rockets. Meanwhile the RN and KM CVs are good at very specific things, some of which aren't always useful.

[ZifTTroll]

33 minutes ago, Pappus said:

The Problem: The KM CV line is way too frustrating to play (at time)

So you are complaining about CVs while most of the playerbase are yelling #removecv

[quickr]

37 minutes ago, Pappus said:

The Problem: The KM CV line is way too frustrating to play (at time)

Guess what, every other line is frustrating to play when there are CVs in a match.

[Padds01]

25 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Looks fine

spreadsheet says its fine? 

i dunno how were the other lines doing when they were only owned by super testers and people motivated to spend on premium containers?

also people are playing badly against them out of lack of knowledge, seen a lot of ships turn in or out the wrong way that you dont see in older more well known CV's

all that said i dont think the KM CV's are underpowered there just too random

 

 

for me its the torp bombers they claim its the high speed that makes them a DD hunting weapon, just makes me think they dont have anyone there or giving feedback they listen to who has actually played a CV , id rate turning speed, aiming speed and arming distance all far more useful that torpedo speed

 

German CV can and do do as well as any other cv. problem is its all so random and a bad game in a german CV is far worse than a bad game in anything else.

 

you give up the ability to strike important targets to farm some bigger numbers, i dont see the line being played much they are different and i like that, your just too reliant on the enemy playing badly. and having picked the right ships

[Aixin]

I find them really funny tbh. All cvs should be like them (in terms of strength). It becomes a matter of skill if you can kill a dd with those torps somewhat really player vs player.... 

The rockets are very situational they might should get buffed against  bigger targets (bbs). Then we have the torp bomber they do only few dmg but that fine cuz if you attack cruisers or bbs basically they are unndodgeable.so yeah balans and fun can happen (at least for me) 

[Pappus]

8 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

It is almost as if reworked CVs aren't any fun when they're balanced. 

 

 

Then perhaps WG should nerf those down to the level of KM/RN CVs?

Oh wait, last time they even got close to that the rework died.

It is almost as if reworked CVs aren't any fun when they- oh wait. 

El this isnt about numbers or balance. Inherently playing something overpowered is obviously more fun, but this entire post is not only about the positive notion, but about the opposite. Frustration. See the same way a DD is obliterated by midway strikes and the cv won't be a good sport and only put half the reticule on the target the enemy won't say. Ah well I dodged 4 strikes, time to let him hit me. Obviously gamers have the most fun at the expense of other gamers.

 

Is it fun for me to do a dev strike on a DD with HE bombers on the midway? Sure, but it is not necessary. Be it HE rocket, Torps or HE bombers they all allow me to strike. They also all leave a way for the opposing ship to reduce the brunt of the incoming attack. Yes if you have e.g. 5k life left on a cruiser you won't be able to mitigate enough of the incoming tiny tims to safe your skin, you will die. Shooting AP rockets at a nose in DD however is not a strike, nor is it a strike against a cruiser. It is a complete waste of time and it was not in your hand.

 

I don't need to strike a DD for half its life in a single pass to enjoy the ship. What we are talking about here is not striking a DD for a little bit less damage, we are talking about not striking him at all unless he allows us to. There is a big difference. The difference being agency. When finishing a DD at 1000 HP can become a gordic knot. Even if that was a more balanced state, it would not be the state to pursue as it is at the expense of fun.

 

Balance and fun are not mutually exclusive. Strike agency cannot be solely on the opponent.

 

 

[Pappus]

41 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Looks fine:

 

Looks fine:

 

Looks fine after first impression, but needs more players:

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20200718/eu_2month/average_ship_u.html

You missed the entire point.

 

I didn't say that they perform bad, I said that they are the most frustrating to play by a large margin. Those numbers don't represent that. Damage dealt is a journey that can be fun or not.

[Aixin]

7 hours ago, Flock_Undead said:

*edit*

The only issue is that I see is that you as the German cv mostly do the work for you team. Most people (only played Weser so far) tend to rather take a Dev strike from 4 or 5 of my teams bbs then a 10k strike (if good rng) from my rockets. But If they work they work fine. In my opinion it's a good thing that they are cointerable since it becomes more and more a player vs player skill matter who wins the micro fight. 

[Pappus]

7 hours ago, Flock_Undead said:

*edit*

You could say this if there was an actual way of attacking in any sneak fashion. You cannot. CV strikes are almost always announced well in advance.

[_HomTanks_]

1 hour ago, Pappus said:

P.S. If you CV haters think that this is great, well then guess what people will remain on the midway and haku or enterprises and proceed to make your days miserable. 

 

[UnderDuress]

12 minutes ago, Pappus said:

Strike agency cannot be solely on the opponent.

Indeed, which is why I think the German CVs are a step in the right direction. Now if WG actually does something about the spotting then CV might get closer to balance.

[waxx25]

Super testers are nothing more than a marketing campaign by WG.

All needed data can and is collected on test servers. 

[ColonelPete]

28 minutes ago, Padds01 said:

spreadsheet says its fine?

They look fine.

9 minutes ago, Pappus said:

You missed the entire point.

 

I didn't say that they perform bad, I said that they are the most frustrating to play by a large margin. Those numbers don't represent that. Damage dealt is a journey that can be fun or not.

You claimed they have problems and that they have difficulty to deal damage.

The stats do not show that.

 

If you just do not like the playstyle, then the KM CV are not made for you and you can play a different line.

[Kartoffelmos]

8 minutes ago, Pappus said:

You cannot. CV strikes are almost always announced well in advance.

 

How terrible.

Fortunately for us normal players, we can speed up to 120+ knots in order to match the plane velocity.

[159Hunter]

Good. Now you know what I feel in my z52 when there's CVs in game.

[El2aZeR]

18 minutes ago, Pappus said:

Balance and fun are not mutually exclusive. Strike agency cannot be solely on the opponent.

 

Here's the thing. In a PvP game your fun directly comes at the expense of someone else's fun. This is why balance takes precedence as it ensures fairness.

And now tell me why your opponent shouldn't be able to negate most of your damage potential when you already have so many advantages simply by being a CV rather than a surface ship? Isn't it actually fair that your damage potential can be almost negated via counterplay since you have practically no weaknesses otherwise?

[gabberworld]

1 hour ago, Pappus said:

 

 

developer would tell your simple answer for you long text. if you not like, go play something else

[Flock_Undead]

28 minutes ago, Pappus said:

You could say this if there was an actual way of attacking in any sneak fashion. You cannot.

This literally applies to all ships as soon as the CV enters the game, you notice the hypocrisy ?

[Beastofwar]

1 hour ago, DrMechano said:

I'll put the KM CVs in with the RN CVs, they'll be people who HATE them and people who love them.

 

Agree...i love playing the UK CV and i also love what i see with the Weser. It's is using  the different mechanics that i enjoy,  not how far they bring me in damage racing to glorify my WR. ( waste of ones life time the latter....as it is just a game )

 

Quote

Here's the thing. In a PvP game your fun directly comes at the expense of someone else's fun.

 

Being destroyed confronts them with not being that good as they thought they were.....and it lowers WR/killrate/stats !! Unbearable !!

 

And "ofcourse" that is caused by an external factor that is outside their control. That factor must be removed ! But wait....what is the constant factor in being destroyed  ?

[El2aZeR]

1 minute ago, Beastofwar said:

Being destroyed confronts them with not being that good as they thought they were.....and it lowers WR !! Ubearable !!

 

Ah, so if a cheater destroys you, that simply means you're not good enough? It doesn't mean the confrontation was inherently unfair?

Your narrative is laughable as usual.

[Beastofwar]

24 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Ah, so if a cheater destroys you, that simply means you're not good enough? It doesn't mean the confrontation was inherently unfair?

Your narrative is laughable as usual.

 

Never met a cheater that i was aware of.

 

Only game rmechanic exploiters. But this is normal in any game, as all games have fixed rules and mechanics.

 

Those that complain are obviously not aware you can exploit mechanics too. Or you can be aware but not go into that...because you just want to enjoy the game as it was intended.....i count myself to the latter.

 

Losing to me merely means less XP. For credits that does not matter, i have not seen income of below 200k ( after costs ) for a very long time. Using CV that is much higher.

 

To others losing means lower stats....shame.....dented egos......guys that throw with their PC peripheral equipment in rage outbursts....whatnot. They really punish themselves with that as they seem to have lost the sense  this is but a computer game. And in a game you not always win...if so, there would not be a challenge. It would be boring ! Lowering that challenge by exploiting mechanics.....well does having less challenge make you enjoy the game more ?

[El2aZeR]

3 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Never met a cheater that i was aware of.

 

Which ofc changes nothing about the base argument.

Is facing a cheater inherently unfair or not?

 

Also "mechanic exploiters" is contradictory given that the definition of an exploit is the use of a bug etc. unintended by the developer.