Concealment and brawling

[B051LjKo]

I just don't get it. What is the logic behind concealment. I am really trying to make GK work, and have decent stats with it (still trying to utilize futile secondary build) but that is just a wall of frustration and some really illogical game design.

If you want to go full secondary built with GK, you must sacrifice almost everything (both concealment and fire prevention). In order to be effective, you must close the range, and that is just not possible because you lit up first on the map, with 15.9 km concealment, and  you are just huge HP pinata.

On the other hand, ships like Thunderer sit safely in the back, spamming HE at 24km distances with pinpoint accuracy, and have concealment of 12.5 km? Basically it can stop shooting at any time and disappear if desired. 

Where is the logic there? 

 

@MrConway @Crysantos Are there any plans to change the skill distribution (combining manual secondaries with AFT for example) or you are happy with the current meta that strongly discourages any for of close combat?

[Padds01]

they do seem pretty happy with the camp/run away meta , its been very heavily supported for at least a year now the ships ,the maps , the reward scheme, it all pushes people to it

[ColonelPete]

The logic is to use the enviroment to your advantage.

There is a reason that Ocean is quite rare.

 

And yes, secondary builds are problematic when even many DD fight from 12+ km...

[B051LjKo]

4 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

The logic is to use the enviroment to your advantage.

There is a reason that Ocean is quite rare.

 

And yes, secondary builds are problematic when even many DD fight from 12+ km...

The only way to do that is to sit and camp in the back for the first 10 minutes, and then slowly move forward. That is booooring. Hiding with a BB behind islands leads to yolo torps devastations.

 

I mean, I do not need to play brawlers, and will probably just abandon the idea of trying to make them work, just want to get an answer from WG on why to they promote camp/run away even with the BBs?

[Chaos_Umbra]

Why don't you have Fire Prevention? Cause the German secondaries got buffed so you no longer need IFHE freeing up 4 points for either FP or CE?

 

I run Fire Prevention on GK and CE on Bismarck, I find that GK is going to be spotted regardless so better to improve the survive-ability, whereas Bismarck can get down to 12.9km which just leaves a 1.6km gap between concealment and secondary range (This captain also works well on Odin and Scharnhorst, potentially Siegfried too).

 

Haven't played GK in randoms for a while though so not so sure you can still brawl too effectively with it, did just take the Bismarck out though with 171 secondary hits 3 kills and 114k damage so that works quite well still, was a tier 8 only game though so didn't have to deal with the super long range HE spammers.

[B051LjKo]

7 minutes ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

Why don't you have Fire Prevention? Cause the German secondaries got buffed so you no longer need IFHE freeing up 4 points for either FP or CE?

Because is an old build, without Fire Prevention, and considering that I get on fire the moment anyone shoots at me, yes I need to change it, but that is irrelevant. (Full secondary build is AR, BFT, AFT, Manual Secondaries and DE. No points left for FP or CE) That does not change the fact taht the skills are just messed up. There is really no reason to run secondary built apart from meme. Tank build is just so much more efficient that it hurts.

The question is ''Why on earth do you punish the guys who want to get closer with higher concealment than the HE spammers that sit in the back anyways?'' Where is the logic in that really?

 

 

 

[Chaos_Umbra]

17 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Because is an old build, without Fire Prevention, and considering that I get on fire the moment anyone shoots at me, yes I need to change it, but that is irrelevant. (Full secondary build is AR, BFT, AFT, Manual Secondaries and DE. No points left for FP or CE) That does not change the fact taht the skills are just messed up. There is really no reason to run secondary built apart from meme. Tank build is just so much more efficient that it hurts.

The question is ''Why on earth do you punish the guys who want to get closer with higher concealment than the HE spammers that sit in the back anyways?'' Where is the logic in that really?

DE really??? Your choice then, I wouldn't go DE as Fires you just rely on RNG anyway, not worth the 3 points unless it is Cruiser or DD main battery. In that earlier Bismarck game I still got 7 fires with nothing spec'd into it, with German secondaries it is more about the raw damage due to the high pen, I didn't run DE when you also had to have IFHE so I just went and used the free points to go into stealth or Tanking.

 

As for the question on why there are Great Concealment HE spammers, well for 1 WG ruined a lot of BB play just by adding the RN BB line with the stupid HE Gimmick, as for why they spam HE well they have a hard time having the shells land in the same map square thus you can't use AP as you can't even aim it as you just pray it even hits, the Thunderer on the other hand I don't know why they kept the strong HE considering it is accurate and has really good AP, but seeing as most BB players Spam HE regardless cause they see RN BBs doing it... you see a lot of Thunderers pass on opportunities to get Dev Strikes just cause they only know how to use HE doesn't stop it being frustrating to play against. Now that they are adding BBs that get less accurate the closer you get and have no armour (Champagne) they are clearly just catering to the worst players now (You know the ones sniping in all BBs regardless of nation saying that they have to use all of their gun range...) as more often than not they are the ones most likely to just throw money at the game cause they think it will make them play better and finally breach the 40% WR mark...

[El2aZeR]

12 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

The question is ''Why on earth do you punish the guys who want to get closer with higher concealment than the HE spammers that sit in the back anyways?'' Where is the logic in that really?

 

The logic is quite simple, really. Pushing is not always the smart thing to do. Being able to take more damage and survive longer meanwhile is always a benefit.

 

This has less to do with how the skills and upgrades are designed and more with how the game is played. And that is not going to change.

[B051LjKo]

6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

The logic is quite simple, really. Pushing is not always the smart thing to do. Being able to take more damage and survive longer meanwhile is always a benefit.

 

This has less to do with how the skills and upgrades are designed and more with how the game is played. And that is not going to change.

Sorry, but this just makes no sence what so ever.

 

1. Question: Why is the brawler in disadvantage when it comes to concealment against HE spammer who is in a safe position to begin with

 

ElRaZer answer: Because pushing is not the smart thing to do. 

 

Brilliant I must say!

[B051LjKo]

11 minutes ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

DE really??? Your choice then, I wouldn't go DE as Fires you just rely on RNG anyway, not worth the 3 points unless it is Cruiser or DD main battery. In that earlier Bismarck game I still got 7 fires with nothing spec'd into it, with German secondaries it is more about the raw damage due to the high pen, I didn't run DE when you also had to have IFHE so I just went and used the free points to go into stealth or Tanking.

Irrelevant, this is not the discussion about builds. If you want to go that route, nothing related to secondaries is efficient as tank. BFT, AFT, Manual Secondaries will always lose against basics of survivability, fire prevention,  concealment and superintendent (not to mention non secondaries related upgrades)

11 minutes ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

 

As for the question on why there are Great Concealment HE spammers, well for 1 WG ruined a lot of BB play just by adding the RN BB line with the stupid HE Gimmick, as for why they spam HE well they have a hard time having the shells land in the same map square thus you can't use AP as you can't even aim it as you just pray it even hits, the Thunderer on the other hand I don't know why they kept the strong HE considering it is accurate and has really good AP, but seeing as most BB players Spam HE regardless cause they see RN BBs doing it... you see a lot of Thunderers pass on opportunities to get Dev Strikes just cause they only know how to use HE doesn't stop it being frustrating to play against.

To be honest, Thunderer has very good AP rounds, but on average, it is still just more efficient to use HE only (unless in very close range full broadside scenarios). You can get 12-15K damage +2 fire rolls easy, so why bother with AP.

11 minutes ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

Now that they are adding BBs that get less accurate the closer you get and have no armour (Champagne) they are clearly just catering to the worst players now (You know the ones sniping in all BBs regardless of nation saying that they have to use all of their gun range...) as more often than not they are the ones most likely to just throw money at the game cause they think it will make them play better and finally breach the 40% WR mark...

My only question for the devs is why do you push the game in that direction?

[Padds01]

11 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

My only question for the devs is why do you push the game in that direction?

i would assume the wales predominently buy that type of ship

[B051LjKo]

Just now, Padds01 said:

i would assume the wales predominently buy that type of ship

A whale will buy a turd if you stuck a german flag on it.

 

The more I think about it, the less it makes sense.

 

Thunderer, 24,2 km range, very accurate, capable of reliably hitting the target at max range, concealment, 12.3 km

GK, 19 km range with legendary secondaries module, very innacurate, requires to be in the 12-15 km range to reliably do damage with main guns, most effectinve within 10 km range concelement 15.9 km

 

Just absurd, and no sense what so ever

[Butterdoll]

8 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Sorry, but this just makes no sence what so ever.

 

1. Question: Why is the brawler in disadvantage when it comes to concealment against HE spammer who is in a safe position to begin with

 

ElRaZer answer: Because pushing is not the smart thing to do. 

 

Brilliant I must say!

Because pushing is not Always the smart thing to do. And not  the only thing they can do

Brawlers are strong in mid to close range. the others not so much.

But for a brawler to have success it needs the game to be somewhat broken down  that never happens in the early stages, where the teams are compact, you have to be patient.

Personally i have German BBs up to FDG, and the one i played the most it's Bayern, by far.

I changed to a tank build and now i'm much more successful than before, plus it's relatively slow, so i don't run into trouble as fast  as i did with Gneise or Bismarck.

For a brawler to have success, it must have support.

Brawlers traded accuracy of main guns, it is why the others keep their distance, not only they   don't have what it takes but in the same time they are more accurate and they have a screen of ships to support them

Brawlers don't have to have secondaries to brawl. 

And this is why i went for Alabama instead of Massa, it was love at first sight, i found that it is very similar to Bayern and much more accurate, very versatile and it can brawl, it can be at distance

The build will be the same as Bayern's .

If i would had gone for Massa it would be more of the same in essence.

 

 

 

I suggest.

Put another captain in your GK with a different build, see if it fits you or not.

 

try to brawl in your terms not because you are expected to do that or because it's the only thing you can do. the rest of the game act like a regular BB

 

 

 

 

[Hanse77SWE]

Here's my GK build:

 

The thing is that I'm a co-op main and bots don't run. This build focuses on one thing and one thing only: "How much damage can I get before the match is over?"

 

GK is a great battering-ram and can really "lead the charge". Problem is it can't do it alone and as long as the rest of the team camps, the GK has to stay back and do stuff it's not good at.

GK is a great ship, if the team knows how to play around it.

[Butterdoll]

27 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Just absurd, and no sense what so ever

yeah, it does.

 

28 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

hunderer, 24,2 km range, very accurate, capable of reliably hitting the target at max range, concealment, 12.3 km

Thundered has all of that you mentioned because it's all it has and nothing more, once it's strengths stops the other ships starts

Thundered can be   very reliable to hit a target at max range but also can be very reliable to miss a target

[lafeel]

5 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

Thundered can be   very reliable to hit a target at max range but also can be very reliable to miss a target

Especially if the target uses it's WASD keys, as Thunderer's MV is very mediocre.

[waxx25]

I run full secondary build (11.6km) and still have the concealment module (14.3km) AND I ise the 420mm guns. Works great @OP. Not sure what the problem is unless you start the battle by yoloing straight into the enemy.

[loppantorkel]

3 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

A whale will buy a turd if you stuck a german flag on it.

 

The more I think about it, the less it makes sense.

 

Thunderer, 24,2 km range, very accurate, capable of reliably hitting the target at max range, concealment, 12.3 km

GK, 19 km range with legendary secondaries module, very innacurate, requires to be in the 12-15 km range to reliably do damage with main guns, most effectinve within 10 km range concelement 15.9 km

 

Just absurd, and no sense what so ever

The meta is constantly shifting. Sec build GK is not at all viable. I ran a sort of hybrid sec.build with fire prevention for a long time and was successful. It just doesn't work as well any more. Other ships are straight up better and you'll have a very tough time utilising sec GK. Maybe things will change again, but for now it's best to accept the current status and meta.

[ColonelPete]

4 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

The only way to do that is to sit and camp in the back for the first 10 minutes, and then slowly move forward. That is booooring. Hiding with a BB behind islands leads to yolo torps devastations.

 

I mean, I do not need to play brawlers, and will probably just abandon the idea of trying to make them work, just want to get an answer from WG on why to they promote camp/run away even with the BBs?

I suggest to look at the maps again....

And I do not see how they promote that. That is a player issue.

[_HomTanks_]

5 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Sorry, but this just makes no sence what so ever.

 

1. Question: Why is the brawler in disadvantage when it comes to concealment against HE spammer who is in a safe position to begin with

 

ElRaZer answer: Because pushing is not the smart thing to do. 

 

Brilliant I must say!

 

6 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

The only way to do that is to sit and camp in the back for the first 10 minutes, and then slowly move forward. That is booooring.

So you wanna hop in GK with wrongly set captain skills (DE really?) as the game starts, then rush into enemy lines as if this is not a strat game for 20 minutes but counter strike, and kill whole bunch of dudes with your secondaries + main arms, and get out of there alive? I think you have gotten the definition of brawling all wrong.

[quickr]

6 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

The only way to do that is to sit and camp in the back for the first 10 minutes, and then slowly move forward. That is booooring.

That is exactly how brawling is being done properly. Sit in the back, take potshots at your enemy, try to bring their HP down a bit, soften them up. So when the opportunity presents itself you push in against already weakened and hurt enemy. If you rush in from first second, all guns blazing you'll end up with results like this:

[Panocek]

6 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Sorry, but this just makes no sence what so ever.

 

1. Question: Why is the brawler in disadvantage when it comes to concealment against HE spammer who is in a safe position to begin with

 

ElRaZer answer: Because pushing is not the smart thing to do. 

 

Brilliant I must say!

Simple. Guy who "wants to push" automatically overextends from the rest of the team, making himself a nice target to be farmed

[Miscommunication_dept]

A secondary GK pushing at the right time is a one ship battering ram and very effective.

Timing the push well takes practice though.

 

If you push where cruisers are camping or destroyers are lurking your armour will not protect you.

[159Hunter]

6 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Sorry, but this just makes no sence what so ever.

 

1. Question: Why is the brawler in disadvantage when it comes to concealment against HE spammer who is in a safe position to begin with

 

ElRaZer answer: Because pushing is not the smart thing to do. 

 

Brilliant I must say!

What he said was: don't fit for brawling, fit for tank (which includes concealement). And then your GK will be more than resilient enough.

IMO, a brawling setup might be nice at tier VIII, but the HE spam goes up exponentially, so fire prevention at tier X is a must. And since German secondaries kinda need manual secondaries and AFT, this just aint worth it.

[loppantorkel]

It's a bit too easy to just disregard this topic as a l2p issue - 'don't yolo in at start'. I think there is an issue in having a line made for secondaries and brawling, but doesn't have a place in the current meta. It's not unreasonable to expect better things from the German bb line. Not sure if it needs buffing or rebalancing. Maybe a rebranding.

 

Are any good players foregoing FP in high tier bbs atm? Maybe that's an issue....