How to support your DDs?

[Camperdown]

DDs dying in the first 2-3 minutes is frustrating. Of course DDs should not rush in, on the other hand it is the DD role to ride shotgun. DDs that do not move forward do not contribute to their team. So they need support. 

If we do not punish DDs for dying quick (see the other thread), what should other classes do or do not to support them? If DDs should not rush in and die, how should they perform their vital role of contesting the caps?

[lafeel]

20 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

DDs dying in the first 2-3 minutes is frustrating. Of course DDs should not rush in, on the other hand it is the DD role to ride shotgun. DDs that do not move forward do not contribute to their team. So they need support. 

If we do not punish DDs for dying quick (see the other thread), what should other classes do or do not to support them? If DDs should not rush in and die, how should they perform their vital role of contesting the caps?

It's not rocket science. You push along with them, maybe not right beside them, but not far behind.

[waxx25]

6 minutes ago, lafeel said:

It's not rocket science. You push along with them, maybe not right beside them, but not far behind.

Pretty much this. When playong my Des Moines I will push in with the DD......even if i losw half my hp hwlping kill enemy dd and save ours its worth it.

[ObiWankov]

you shoot the enemy dd (and hit)

you shoot the enemy radar ships (and hit)

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

All of the above point to one thing: all supporting ships MUST make sure they can actually shoot and most likely hit or contribute to hitting enemy DD's and or enemy radar ships. And if you are radar equipped, make sure you can use it while covering the whole objective. Nothing else matters at the beginning stage of the battle for DD's.

 

Do not hide to the point where you cant contribute to shooting into the objective. The more targets the enemy team has to shoot at, the less likely the DD or one that one supporting hero will get focused down. Sailing behind islands at the time when the DD enters the objective is the biggest issue by far. Range is less of an issue as long as all the ships contribute.

[Procrastes]

On 7/16/2020 at 8:45 AM, lafeel said:

It's not rocket science. You push along with them, maybe not right beside them, but not far behind.

 

On 7/16/2020 at 8:52 AM, waxx25 said:

Pretty much this. When playong my Des Moines I will push in with the DD......even if i losw half my hp hwlping kill enemy dd and save ours its worth it.

 

What lafeel and waxx25 have said above. It's usually worth taking some initial damage if this means you get an early cap advantage, since this puts pressure on the enemy to play aggressively - and thus expose themselves to fire - or risk losing the game.

 

It's also worth noting that simply targeting an enemy and shooting at him will be good support for your destroyer, even if you don't hit. A destroyer that is targeted by (5) enemies and has shells falling all around him, will be stressed as all heck and far less capable of outplaying any nearby opponents than he would have been if left all alone.

 

I recall one situation where I pushed in to contest a cap in my Daring. I felt fairly confident about this even though the enemy destroyers were backed up by at least two cruisers, since I was backed up by a Smolensk and a Marceau.

 

Or so I thought, anyway. As I got into a dogfight with the enemy destroyers - both of which had of course decided to team up against me - all hell broke loose around me. It was a rain of fire like the one wiping out Sodom and Gomorrah, but all directed at me and nothing at the enemy destroyers. When I had been sunk - which didn't take long - I took a look around me, and found my allies in the Smolensk and the Marceau both parked up snug and safe behind the island to my back, completely unable to shoot at anyone on the enemy team. I watched them circle around aimlessly for a minute or so as the cap was taken by the enemy, and then they decided that retreat was the better part of valour. Seeing that damage to your ship does not, in fact, carry over into the real world, this way of playing the game remains something of a mystery to me. 

 

Edited: I just saw that Europizza has made pretty much the same point as I, in the post above. I can only agree with what he says! 

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, Camperdown said:

If DDs should not rush in and die, how should they perform their vital role of contesting the caps?

 

People are way too fixiated on getting caps, which is just wrong. You dont lose the game only because the enemy get a cap. But you will lose more likely, if you die for that cap which the enemies will then get afterall. I see people way too often running into a cap, then into the next if they got the first 4 free, and then they overextend and die.

Capping is not the most important task, if you neglect everything else for it. Foremost, your team needs vision.

 

Just an example from my last DD game (dont play DDs that often) Gearing on Islands of Ice:

- spawned Center in a CV game. So i decided not to take B, too great of a risk, went towards A instead.

- enemy DD and a Cleveland got spotted by our CV going into A, cleveland hiding behind an island. No use going into the cap and getting radared by the cleveland, so i turned away, throwing some torps towards the enemies.

- Meanwhile, enemy DD went into B alone, so i decided to intercept him, and he did the mistake by moving into our side of the map, so he died.

- got the B cap easily, because the enemy CV was busy somewhere else.

 

And i still got the only cap for our team. We were lucky, that our DD at A also wasnt stupid and just sat in the cap, but went towards the outside and torped the cleveland to death, while one of our Cruisers blocked the A-Cap.

So you dont need caps to win the game, especially not at the start. Blindly rushing into caps for the caps sake doesnt help anyone. If you have Radar Cruiser backup, sure its easier, but if the enemies have it too, then it gets trickier. Not to mention, omnipresent CVs these days, which makes going for Caps even more questionable at times.

 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

4 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

I took a look around me, and found my allies in the Smolensk and the Marceau both parked up snug and safe behind the island to my back, completely unable to shoot at anyone on the enemy team. [...] this way of playing the game remains something of a mystery to me. 

This happens more often then not sadly. This is the main reason DD's lose initial cap contest. The problem that arises even if you cap, is that passive players like that actually do not pose a threat and give in to any enemy moving up. I've seen plenty of DD's cap, only to lose the caps because their support is just way to risk evading and soft.

[Procrastes]

These...

Spoiler

25 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

People are way too fixiated on getting caps, which is just wrong. You dont lose the game only because the enemy get a cap. But you will lose more likely, if you die for that cap which the enemies will then get afterall. I see people way too often running into a cap, then into the next if they got the first 4 free, and then they overextend and die.

Capping is not the most important task, if you neglect everything else for it. Foremost, your team needs vision.

 

Just an example from my last DD game (dont play DDs that often) Gearing on Islands of Ice:

- spawned Center in a CV game. So i decided not to take B, too great of a risk, went towards A instead.

- enemy DD and a Cleveland got spotted by our CV going into A, cleveland hiding behind an island. No use going into the cap and getting radared by the cleveland, so i turned away, throwing some torps towards the enemies.

- Meanwhile, enemy DD went into B alone, so i decided to intercept him, and he did the mistake by moving into our side of the map, so he died.

- got the B cap easily, because the enemy CV was busy somewhere else.

 

And i still got the only cap for our team. We were lucky, that our DD at A also wasnt stupid and just sat in the cap, but went towards the outside and torped the cleveland to death, while one of our Cruisers blocked the A-Cap.

So you dont need caps to win the game, especially not at the start. Blindly rushing into caps for the caps sake doesnt help anyone. If you have Radar Cruiser backup, sure its easier, but if the enemies have it too, then it gets trickier. Not to mention, omnipresent CVs these days, which makes going for Caps even more questionable at times.

 

 

...are all excellent points.

 

The single best piece of advice for destroyer captains that I've gotten in WoWs,* ever, is the simple admonition, "Don't die."

 

A destroyer that survives into the endgame becomes progressively more and more effective as a fighting unit, since his ability to move around unobstructed, spotting and taking caps (and perhaps torpedo-ambushing slow stupid BB:s), increases dramatically for every enemy ship that goes down. Even on very few hit points, a destroyer is typically a much more relevant threat to the enemy than a ship of any other ship class would have been, due to his ability to be useful without being seen.** I expect that Mr Nesbitt of Harlow, Newtown, was enlisted as a destroyer captain before going into TV comedy shows.***

 

 

* In fact this advice works fairly well in most situations, even IRL.

** The advent of rocket planes has decreased the survivability of wounded destroyers quite significantly, of course, but hey, I guess they can just dodge? If you can't take a joke, don't play destroyers.

***

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

Yes good advise for destroyers but we are discussing tips for everyone else how to meaningful support destroyers that want to contest caps at round start.

[Spartan_Renegade]

 

Cruisers have rapid-firing guns and BBs have the endurance for a reason.  They are meant to work together and support DDs by focusing on enemies that prevent your friendly DD from carrying out their duty......  not have a BB bonfire party 15 km away from the cap zone. 

 

Special tip for BBs: You are not fragile and a little bit of damage won't hurt you so push whenever the opportunity arises and contribute to the team.  

[Camperdown]

22 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

People are way too fixiated on getting caps, which is just wrong. You dont lose the game only because the enemy get a cap. But you will lose more likely, if you die for that cap which the enemies will then get afterall. I see people way too often running into a cap, then into the next if they got the first 4 free, and then they overextend and die.

Capping is not the most important task, if you neglect everything else for it. Foremost, your team needs vision.

 

Just an example from my last DD game (dont play DDs that often) Gearing on Islands of Ice:

- spawned Center in a CV game. So i decided not to take B, too great of a risk, went towards A instead.

- enemy DD and a Cleveland got spotted by our CV going into A, cleveland hiding behind an island. No use going into the cap and getting radared by the cleveland, so i turned away, throwing some torps towards the enemies.

- Meanwhile, enemy DD went into B alone, so i decided to intercept him, and he did the mistake by moving into our side of the map, so he died.

- got the B cap easily, because the enemy CV was busy somewhere else.

 

And i still got the only cap for our team. We were lucky, that our DD at A also wasnt stupid and just sat in the cap, but went towards the outside and torped the cleveland to death, while one of our Cruisers blocked the A-Cap.

So you dont need caps to win the game, especially not at the start. Blindly rushing into caps for the caps sake doesnt help anyone. If you have Radar Cruiser backup, sure its easier, but if the enemies have it too, then it gets trickier. Not to mention, omnipresent CVs these days, which makes going for Caps even more questionable at times.

 

I agree trying to cap whatever the odds is bad. However, I do think contesting the caps from game start is important. Any team that gets a free cap early in the game has an important advantage. I think just 1 cap early in the game is enough, you don't need 2 or 3. The risk is that your team does not contest any caps, and within 3 minutes 2 or 3 caps are red. That's tough to recover from, unless the enemy suffers substantial losses.

What I try to do in a DD is rush forward at game start. Why? Because I want to contest a cap and if I get there early, I have an advantage.

If no cruisers follow, I will be careful and wait at the edge of the cap until I know the enemy position. If I am supported by cruisers, I will cap. When entering, I will turn immediately to be able to get out of Dodge when spotted. If I spot an enemy DD, I engage and retreat out of the cap. If not radared I smoke up after a few salvos.

In this way I rarely die and often get the cap or our team sinks the enemy DD. Bonus: greedy red cruiser exposes too much and is clobbered.

With a bit of support such tactics work better for me than the usual advice don't rush in.

[DFens_666]

1 minute ago, Europizza said:

Yes good advise for destroyers but we are discussing tips for everyone else to support destroyers that want to contest caps at round start.

 

Well, he did ask that question too

And the problem is, you never know what your DDs are doing. Last time i played division wihtout a DD in it, and i tried to help my DDs (me in Wooster), they just camped island (outside of the cap ofc) and i died for them. Its not worth, to die for others. The same goes for DDs not getting support. If you dont get support, then dont take the risk.

Both sides have to understand what to do, and both need to understand what to do, if they dont have that backup.

[Camperdown]

16 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

These...

  Hide contents

 

...are all excellent points.

 

The single best piece of advice for destroyer captains that I've gotten in WoWs,* ever, is the simple admonition, "Don't die."

 

A destroyer that survives into the endgame becomes progressively more and more effective as a fighting unit, since his ability to move around unobstructed, spotting and taking caps (and perhaps ambushing slow stupid BB:s), increases dramatically for every enemy ship that goes down. Even on very few hit points, a destroyer is typically a much more relevant threat to the enemy than a ship of any other ship class would have been, due to his ability to be useful without being seen.** I expect that Mr Nesbitt of Harlow, Newtown, was enlisted as a destroyer captain before going into TV comedy shows.***

 

 

* In fact this advice works fairly well in most situations, even IRL.

 

** The advent of rocket planes has decreased the survivability of wounded destroyers quite significantly, of course, but hey, I guess they can just dodge? If you can't take a joke, don't play destroyers.

 

***

  Hide contents

 

 

 

Don't die sounds nice and yes you get more valuable later in the game. But establishing an early advantage often helps much for a later win. So it is imo about balancing risk and reward. Many DDs are now too scared and passive.

In the end it is all about skill and map awareness.

[Procrastes]

26 minutes ago, Europizza said:

Yes good advise for destroyers but we are discussing tips for everyone else to support destroyers that want to contest caps.

Ok, how about this: "Back up your destroyer by shooting at whatever ships he spots, preferably without dying (but be prepared to do so if it would help secure the objective without depleting your team of vital resources)."

 

Nah, I dunno. Too cumbersome and a bit lacking in delivery, right?

 

How about this, then: "Actively support your destroyer, but don't take unnecessary damage."

[Camperdown]

1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Well, he did ask that question too

And the problem is, you never know what your DDs are doing. Last time i played division wihtout a DD in it, and i tried to help my DDs (me in Wooster), they just camped island (outside of the cap ofc) and i died for them. Its not worth, to die for others. The same goes for DDs not getting support. If you dont get support, then dont take the risk.

Both sides have to understand what to do, and both need to understand what to do, if they dont have that backup.

That has happened to me too, unfortunately. You move 4 km behind your DD and suddenly he decides not to proceed. You have by then committed and can only turn back by making an awkward and risky turn. Learned my lesson: always have a plan B.

[Ubertron_X]

The ones that are riding shotgun are not the DDs but the ships that follow said DDs in order to support them (usually CA but to a lesser extend also BB), especially those in the middle of the map (if there is a central cap) as those can be shot at from either flank.

 

Correct play for those is to not be spotted early, i.e. depending on the tier and ship, aka your visibility rating, keep approx. 5km to 6km behind your DD in order to have a potentially devastating first strike on the enemy DD as soon as spotting occurs. And always have a plan of escape ready while paying attention to what is happening in other parts of the map (which ships are spotted where, possible angles of incomming fire etc).

 

If you are spotted early consider immediate bailing (CA) or at least take evasive action (CA & BB). No need to die for nothing if your DD is not able to spot the enemy DD, which is the worst thing to happen. If your DD is NOT willing to spot the enemy DD abort immediately (CA) and plan to retreat (BB). Simply too many ships are lost because a fully supported DD just sits on the border of the cap circle, worst case smoking up early, providing zero scouting.

[Bowmangr]

I'm a DD main so I'll just write what I want to see from other players during a match, especially during the crucial first 5 minutes. That time is the time where DDs need to be supported the most because if they don't they will die and then you are in for a 10 more minute losing match.

So, here goes:

FIRST AND FOREMOST, (people absolutely need to get this into their mindset):

DDS WIN GAMES. I know that some people like their huge Battleship to feel important, but if you want to win, you need DDs. Your huge Battleship value is zero if your DDs die early. I don't know how we can get people to understand this.
You simply can't ignore your team's DDs and try to do your own thing. You NEED to support them at the beginning of every battle. Cruiser players inherently try to support DDs, well most of them but BB players are extremely bad at this.

Get this. Just because your AP volley won't do much damage to a DD or even may miss entirely doesn't mean that you shouldn't shoot DD during the early-game. You own DDs is probably fighting them and your own volley (hit or miss, doesn't matter) DOES affect what the enemy does. If he sees that only one other DD is shooting back, he won't smoke up early, he won't retreat and he may continue shooting. If 4-5 ships shoot at him when he gets spotted he may have to smoke up, retreat, stop shooting etc. All this helps early DD engagements immensely. EVEN IF YOU MISS. How can we get BB players to learn this fact.

Just like BBs want spotters and DDs to cap, DDs need BBs to help them back. The DD is not there for your entertainment. It's called mutual support.


2nd,
Stop yelling in chat. DD players have to do just about a million more things than you. If you constantly annoy them with 'caaaap', maniacal pinging etc. you distract them and make them angry. You definitely won't get help then.

3rd,
cruiser captains that demand smoking them up. DDs need their smoke to survive an encounter. You need their smoke to farm damage. I'm sorry but if I don't know exactly where radar ships are, where the CV planes are and if there are any sonars around the corner you WONT get smoke no matter how much you are yelling in chat. Get it?

4th,
When I spot a radar cruiser along with 2 other cruisers, I expect BBs to shoot the radar. They aren't... (most of the time)

5th, if the enemy cv is trying to wreck me with rocket planes again and again and AGAIN, I expect some help from my own nearby CV. When I see him ignoring me so he can drop bombs on some battleship nearby for 3,000 dmg it grinds my gears. And I will probably die.

6th,
Did I mention that DDs win games and not your favorite BBs? Let's repeat it some more, maybe people will take notice.

Sorry for the attitude but the DD gameplay is pretty toxic right now because of CV game mechanics, having players yelling at you for utterly ridiculous reasons each match is the cherry on top.

[Beastofwar]

DD do not operate alone, they work in a team to succeed. In randoms many players operate alone. That is the core of the problem.

 

Many times when i do go for a cap - with spotting and waiting a bit before entering the cap so with more caution then cap rushing DD - and think i can contest the cap i am not supported. I understand a CV cannot support 3 DD in 3 caps for example, but why Cruisers block their own line of fire/sight by hiding behind islands, and with that completely being unable to fire on the enemy DD spotting me while their fleet opens up on me elludes me. My survival then rest on that spotting enemy DD going black ( being destroyed ) so i need the Cruisers support to kill quick enough. A CV swooping in at that moment would be nice too. Especially when running into a DD-killer-DD that is superior to my ship. This happens outside caps, trying to flank/go around the enemies back too ofcourse...

 

What also happens is that Cruisers rather fire on lumbering slow BB ( that i may spot for them ) that are less agile then Cruisers that are slippery and hard to hit, but that are opening up on me and blow me away. Cruisers preferring to sling HE on BB and not shoot at DD as 1st priority is also not very supportive for DD and a good way to win a match...

 

Outside that ( in a duel situation ) it's just ship type against ship type and player skill againt player skill. This does not happen a lot as you are rarely alone in the opening fase of a match. That is exactly why you cannot play alone/cannot move without proper support.

 

 

 

 

[Camperdown]

4 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

DD do not operate alone, they work in a team to succeed. In randoms many players operate alone. That is the core of the problem.

 

Many times when i do go for a cap - with spotting and waiting a bit before entering the cap so with more caution then cap rushing DD - and think i can contest the cap i am not supported. I understand a CV cannot support 3 DD in 3 caps for example, but why Cruisers block their own line of fire/sight by hiding behind islands, and with that completely being unable to fire on the enemy DD spotting me while their fleet opens up on me elludes me. This happens outside caps, trying to flank/go around the enemies back too ofcourse...

 

What aslo happens is that Cruisers rather fire on BB ( that i may spot for them ) that are less manouevreble then Cruisers that are slippery and hard to hit, but that are opening up on me and blow me away. Cruisers preferring to sling HE on BB is also not very supportive and a good way to win a match...

 

 

 

 

This is one of the most annoying things: cruisers hiding behind islands simply not having a good firing line to support you or cruisers spamming a BB in the distance to farm them rather than the closer radar cruiser 

[Admiral_Oily_Discharge]

montana gk and couple others bbs can dev strike dds in a salvo . I usually prioritize focus on dd when in gk turn on hydro sit bow on near cap helping our dd to the best feasible extent :D

[Ubertron_X]

7 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

This is one of the most annoying things: cruisers hiding behind islands simply not having a good firing line to support you or cruisers spamming a BB in the distance to farm them rather than the closer radar cruiser 

Well the most annoying thing is one DD going somewhere and 4 BB going elsewhere (for some strange reason super common on the Neighbours map).

 

1) As a non DD: Follow your DD if anyhow possible.

2) As a DD: Scout for your team if anyhow possible, even if this means aborting your current action.

[DFens_666]

20 minutes ago, Bowmangr said:

cruiser captains that demand smoking them up. DDs need their smoke to survive an encounter. You need their smoke to farm damage. I'm sorry but if I don't know exactly where radar ships are, where the CV planes are and if there are any sonars around the corner you WONT get smoke no matter how much you are yelling in chat. Get it?

 

I disagree with that. It can be very beneficial to smoke up your radar Cruiser, so he can help you get rid of DDs. Sure, you shouldnt waste your smoke on just some random dude, but there are times where it does make sense. Like if you have a Radar Mino supporting you, can make life so much easier. If people would play in divisions more often, they would understand the benefit of teamplay. But occasionally, you get that with random teammates aswell, once (while playing Radar mino) i asked a Z52 to smoke me up since a DD was coming, and i was in a bad spot at that time. He smoked me up and when my RPF told me, the DD is clear of the island, i popped my radar, and my Z detonated the Shima soon after.

 

Not to mention, smoke doesnt help you against Radar or Hydro, if anything it makes it worse for you, since you effectively smoke up the enemy ships.

[Bowmangr]

14 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

I disagree with that. It can be very beneficial to smoke up your radar Cruiser, so he can help you get rid of DDs. Sure, you shouldnt waste your smoke on just some random dude, but there are times where it does make sense. Like if you have a Radar Mino supporting you, can make life so much easier. If people would play in divisions more often, they would understand the benefit of teamplay. But occasionally, you get that with random teammates aswell, once (while playing Radar mino) i asked a Z52 to smoke me up since a DD was coming, and i was in a bad spot at that time. He smoked me up and when my RPF told me, the DD is clear of the island, i popped my radar, and my Z detonated the Shima soon after.

 

Not to mention, smoke doesnt help you against Radar or Hydro, if anything it makes it worse for you, since you effectively smoke up the enemy ships.

Ι was talking about random battles of course. If you are in a division, your cruiser divisionmate ain't going to be yelling at you to smoke him, he is just going to tell you and you KNOW for a fact that he will support you.

My example was about a random internet dude in a cruiser that somehow DEMANDS smoke and if you don't smoke him up he reports you for not being a team player. So I disagree with you on this. In random battles, smoking up random cruisers is not a good tactic. You don't know the skill level of the cruiser, you don't know where the radar is, you don't know where the CV is, what DDs are there, you know nothing, losing a smoke, especially a long duration smoke that needs 3 minutes to cooldown is bad.

As for sonar, smoking up a cruiser and then both of you getting radared is bad play, the same with sonar. That's what I was writing about. We are talking about the early game. Information is way more valuable than smoking up a Mino that may or MAY NOT support you.

[Johnny_Moneto]

Q: How to support your DDs?

A: Shout at them from the back "go cap, noob!"