What is the balancing reason on the german cv torpedos?

[Pappus]

Why do they have a low flood chance, low volume, low dmg? They have high speed, but what difference does it make? The only difference is that you can drop them from behind a DD and they will catch up and overpass or hit once (for like 3k).

 

The parseval is fun but time and again the same situations occur. There is a target pushing that you cannot citadel by any means so your AP bomb drop even if all hits is about 7k. You can torp them, but you basically can't even notice the dmg when a soyuz tanks them for example.

 

The same story with DDs that don't want you to strike them, you can't force torpedo hits with a spread of 3. AP rockets if they turn into you is basically non existent.

 

I am not saying the ship is too weak or anything, but what is this balanced against? More knots on strike craft?

 

The AP bombs only deal a tiny bit more damage than comparable counterparts.

 

Pros:

• Fastest strikecraft
• High AP damage
• Highest damage against carriers
• HP regen on bombers (not sure if this matters if there is bombers with twice the HP to begin with)
• Fastest torpedos (although the point of this completely eludes me since slower torps are dropped closer to target anyhow)
• Good CV stealthrating

 

Cons:

• Low HP on all planes
• Bombers are not very maneuverable during the strike
• Cannot use islands to approach with bombers in safety
• Least flexible in attack direction
• Easiest carrier to mitigate damage against
• Weakest torpedos
• Shortest torpedo range by far
• No fire capability & flood chance is low
• Bad ability to strike AA gun
• No way to guarantee damage on any given target e.g. finishing off a target with 3-4k HP unless it is a BB, then you can guarantee 2 torp hits.

 

What am I not seeing here? Why isn't it allowed to have something actually outstanding that matters? Strikecraft being fast matters, but if the strike itself is impotent or can be deflected what is the point. Sure you can be a trouble maker and insert yourself into ongoing fights at a rapid pace, but what if there is no brawling or alike going on. Targets can cripple your damage with proper WASD useage and you can't always overcome it.

 

[El2aZeR]

You're supposed to hunt DDs with them and they were balanced accordingly, aka they didn't want you to blow a DD out of the water with only 2-3 torp hits.

Hilarious, I know.

[Pappus]

1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

You're supposed to hunt DDs with them and they were balanced accordingly, aka they didn't want you to blow a DD out of the water with only 2-3 torp hits.

Hilarious, I know.

But the midway has a way easier time with crossdropping them. Is there a guaranteed way to hit those torps in a 1vs1 situation or at least a good setup?

 

Like midway, come from behind, drop, cross is then a strong chance to get several on target.

 

with the parseval if you drop from behind there is a chance one hits, sure, but there is no crossdrop potential there so you are always back to square one

[El2aZeR]

4 minutes ago, Pappus said:

Is there a guaranteed way to hit those torps in a 1vs1 situation or at least a good setup?

 

Wouldn't know tbh. Haven't played them myself. I've been told getting a torp hit or two is neither easy nor particularly hard, but it is impossible to actually kill a DD within a reasonable time frame due to the low alpha. Even the AP rockets are supposedly better at it.

From what I know you're supposed to make cruiser life miserable and touch some BBs with AP bombs in the meantime. That makes KM CVs situational and weaker to the standards at their respective tiers.

[Yedwy]

Persival is T8 and Midway is what tier again?

 

Btw DDs can be an issue for german CVs if your team is potato (its so rare I know, right?) and doesnt help you...

[Pappus]

1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Wouldn't know tbh. Haven't played them myself. I've been told getting a torp hit or two is neither easy nor particularly hard, but it is impossible to actually kill a DD within a reasonable time frame due to the low alpha. Even the AP rockets are supposedly better at it.

From what I know you're supposed to make cruiser life miserable and touch some BBs with AP bombs in the meantime. That makes KM CVs situational and weaker to the standards at their respective tiers.

AP rockets can have devastating damage against DDs, but of course the requirement is that they are angled sharply and that the spread goes that way. Of course we know who is in actual charge of the angle between a DD and strike craft so yeah when you are a parseval these rats all turn on their AA. Imagine dds willingly turning on their AA and fighting the CV. Not just the special shimas. That is the state of those german CVs against DDs.

 

Making cruiser life miserable I would say you can kinda do it, if you can cit the target and thus force it to either eat your volley or massive BB volley. Obviously there is tons of cruisers that you can't cit or that only need to angle slightly so that you can't anymore. Combine that with the inability to use islands for your AP bombers approach and having no devastating torpedos you are down to the same problem that you have with the DDs. You need them to be distracted or occupied and I was just asking what performance reason warrants this, cause I am not seeing it

[1MajorKoenig]

11 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

I've been told getting a torp hit or two is neither easy nor particularly hard, but it is impossible to actually kill a DD within a reasonable time frame due to the low alpha

First impression: pretty much this 

[Pappus]

6 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Persival is T8 and Midway is what tier again?

 

Btw DDs can be an issue for german CVs if your team is potato (its so rare I know, right?) and doesnt help you...

Midway is T10, but it doesn't rely on the torpedo to hunt DDs. The german T10 CV would have the same problem and would equally be outperformed there. The Midway torps are better because if you e.g. torp smoke you can hit an area that is twice as big. The torps are also slow so they don't pass the DD if you drop them from behind it unless it breaks, but if it slows down you have the swift follow up drop to capitalize on that.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

55 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

...they didn't want you to blow a DD out of the water with only 2-3 torp hits.

.

 

Since when?

[DeviousDave02]

10 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

Since when?

Since Kreigsmarine CV... gotta make that German equiv inferior to all other tech trees, Comrade. Otherwise the player base might start getting ideas.

 

Besides all the good stuff is reserved for motherland carriers (coming soon to a Premium store near you)

 

...........................................................................................

 

In all honesty though they are kinda meh, great for bullying potato DD's and light Cruisers of a lower tier than your CV where the torpedoes cause decent damage due to the smaller HP pool per impact. However the usefulness drops of quickly as the opponents DD tier goes up and when out tiered by a couple of levels... well... the damage per impact becomes far less helpful when you consider any decent (even OP AI) DD will be trying it's damnedest to dodge so landing multiple torps becomes a greater issue.

 

Why we couldn't just have a CV line with NO specific anti DD weapons but decent/good against everything else weapons is beyond me.

[Beastofwar]

1 hour ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

I've been told getting a torp hit or two is neither easy nor particularly hard, but it is impossible to actually kill a DD within a reasonable time frame due to the low alpha

 

Low HP DD won't care about the low alpha when those fish overtake them.....they will come here complaining about "OP" CV that killed them...

 

Being torpedoed by aircraft in a DD is almost the same as being knifed in a shooter game....they will be upset...

 

 

[Padds01]

its not noticeably different torping a dd with the german CV's the devs seem to think the extra 15 or so knots would be a big bonus but it just isnt any help you need good angular velocity fast, reticle shrink and short arming and these have no great benifit there. as with all the german gimmicks they all loose to modest use of the A or D key 

 

if these are meant to be used against DD's they they could really use proximity fuses, better arming /aim time, i dunno but right now the damage penalty actually makes them less viable for DD hunting than any other nations TB's

 

 

 

[Sunleader]

T8 Torp generally does 3.5k on a DD.

Assuming your Hitting non Saturated Sections.

On Saturated Sections it can be far less....

 

Needless to say.

Saturating a Section on a DDs isnt rare.

 

 

Now think about this.

Shokaku or Lexington will do 5k Strikes with Rockets easily from any Angle without bothering to maneuver around and without you having the Ability to Evade.

 

Parsival does 3.5k Damage but only if he can line up the Drop which requires excessive maneuvering and even then Hits can be Prevented by the DD Evading.

 

 

 

 

Using these Torps on DDs is at Best something to be done in an Opportunity Event like a DD Beaching himself or sitting alone in Smoke without your Aircraft being Spotted thus he only seeing the Torps when they are already on him.

Or when the DD is close to a Friendly Cruiser and cant afford maneuvering.

Beyond that. Its a waste of time.

 

But in all these cases other CVs Torps can do this Too and actually hit harder.

 

 

[Pappus]

4 hours ago, Sunleader said:

T8 Torp generally does 3.5k on a DD.

Assuming your Hitting non Saturated Sections.

On Saturated Sections it can be far less....

 

Needless to say.

Saturating a Section on a DDs isnt rare.

 

 

Now think about this.

Shokaku or Lexington will do 5k Strikes with Rockets easily from any Angle without bothering to maneuver around and without you having the Ability to Evade.

 

Parsival does 3.5k Damage but only if he can line up the Drop which requires excessive maneuvering and even then Hits can be Prevented by the DD Evading.

 

 

 

 

Using these Torps on DDs is at Best something to be done in an Opportunity Event like a DD Beaching himself or sitting alone in Smoke without your Aircraft being Spotted thus he only seeing the Torps when they are already on him.

Or when the DD is close to a Friendly Cruiser and cant afford maneuvering.

Beyond that. Its a waste of time.

 

But in all these cases other CVs Torps can do this Too and actually hit harder.

 

 

Yes I am with you on that one, which is why I asked.

The torpedos are labeled as being good to hunt DDs, but they are not good enough to actually fulfill that role. If a DD is distracted or opportunity presents itself you are better off using AP rockets since you can deal 5k+ on that strike

[TheEntireGermanEmpire]

Thing is - Germans again suffer from "having new ideas" and coming out at the wrong time. Just like destroyerse and battleships do.

CV's are OP against DD's. So the obvious solution is to make a CV line that can do crap against DD's. In come the Germans.
They are in a bad spot because a) you are not able to influence the battle via DD hunting as any other carrier can, resulting in lower WR and b) AP rockets will get nerfed, just like AP bombs are getting nerfed. The entire point of the entire line is AP damage which is already under fire.
But what did WG do to a CV that cannot hunt DD`s with planes? Well, for it to be not totally useless you get secondaries! 105mm with massa dispersion formula. Not even GZ ones.... So you need to spend another 4 pts and a module to defend against CV's at least a little while others get their game influencing defense for free!
That is wargaming balance for you.
Now add weak [edited]but fast torps, AP rockets that become useless with the slightest angle, AP bombers which can not sneak over islands and have a large time spent in AA with a long cooldown, low available heal (unlike, again, others that have their "defense" built in) AND which have bombs that have an even spread in the recticle unlike IJN bombers....

Yes. Germans, again, get to be the "lets make things different/special to the meta"-thing and be forgotten. Maybe we'll get a buff in 2-3 years, like German DD'S and BB's did because there are now ships that can do the same, but better.EU DDs are better at torp spamming. Brits got Hydro. German AP damage got superceded by Russian rail guns with insane pen and improved ricochet angles. Secondary builts are better done with Massa, Georgia and Ohio.

Welcome to Germany, where everytime someone else can do better what they can.

[Excavatus]

the problem is not the German CVs I guess.. 

But with the US and IJN line mostly.. 

 

From my point of view.. 

New CVs, the german ones, indom, FDR.. 

They are getting more and more balanced and "ineffective" in the battle.. against DDs.. 

They are trying to make CVs more balanced I believe.. without saying "we are trying to find a less frustrating place for the CVs in the game" 

The problem is.. US and IJN... They are effective against anything on a very problematic level.. 

[Yedwy]

11 hours ago, Pappus said:

Midway is T10, but it doesn't rely on the torpedo to hunt DDs. The german T10 CV would have the same problem and would equally be outperformed there. The Midway torps are better because if you e.g. torp smoke you can hit an area that is twice as big. The torps are also slow so they don't pass the DD if you drop them from behind it unless it breaks, but if it slows down you have the swift follow up drop to capitalize on that.

Exactly, wait untill the T10 is here then compare her to Midway, we dont know how Richthofen strike will look like when she comes, she migt have 4 or 5 planes per run with even faster and/or stronger torps, she might drop double fish, who knows, these are all silver ships WG can buff and nerf them as they want... Parsival can only be compared to T8 CVs, ie that would be Lexi, Shokak and Imp, now I didnt play that much T8 silvers since I have a number of prems on stock making it rather pointless to waste time with them but I would dare to say Parsival is overall just about mid pack, definetley stronger then Imp and not as strong as Skokak or versatile as Lexi, Parsivals (and line in general) problem is not weak ordnance but overspecialisation... What we have is basically anti-cruiser CVs, that might actually work in CB and other "cruiser rich enviroments" but in Ranked and Random they are MM dependant...

[Pappus]

20 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Exactly, wait untill the T10 is here then compare her to Midway, we dont know how Richthofen strike will look like when she comes, she migt have 4 or 5 planes per run with even faster and/or stronger torps, she might drop double fish, who knows, these are all silver ships WG can buff and nerf them as they want... Parsival can only be compared to T8 CVs, ie that would be Lexi, Shokak and Imp, now I didnt play that much T8 silvers since I have a number of prems on stock making it rather pointless to waste time with them but I would dare to say Parsival is overall just about mid pack, definetley stronger then Imp and not as strong as Skokak or versatile as Lexi, Parsivals (and line in general) problem is not weak ordnance but overspecialisation... What we have is basically anti-cruiser CVs, that might actually work in CB and other "cruiser rich enviroments" but in Ranked and Random they are MM dependant...

You can already look at the stats of the richthofen strike ingame. It is all there to look at. There will be no double torpedo.

 

1 hour ago, Excavatus said:

the problem is not the German CVs I guess.. 

But with the US and IJN line mostly.. 

 

From my point of view.. 

New CVs, the german ones, indom, FDR.. 

They are getting more and more balanced and "ineffective" in the battle.. against DDs.. 

They are trying to make CVs more balanced I believe.. without saying "we are trying to find a less frustrating place for the CVs in the game" 

The problem is.. US and IJN... They are effective against anything on a very problematic level.. 

 

Problematic is if you have no means of damaging an opponent. Many normal DDs would deplane you before you can strike him dead in a 1vs1 situation. Additionally other stuff for DDs is in testing like 1.5km air detect.

 

Angling against the AP rockets the DD takes 0 or 227 dmg, angling against torpedos you cannot guarantee the hit and even if you hit you would need in the ballpark of over 10 torpedo hits to kill him, AP bombs would overpenetrate for a few hundred if you even hit.

 

Making strikes impotent better bring something other serious on the table and the AP rockets are by far not good enough to warrant that you are a cripple in a 1vs1 situation against DDs or many cruisers.

 

Wasn't it an iron rule that there should be no ship that basically can't do anything against another ship? For this the torpedos need to change into a pattern that guarantees hits.

A full speeding DD you can aim perfectly and hit the outer torpedos, but they will actually outrun the middle one.

[Yedwy]

6 minutes ago, Pappus said:

You can already look at the stats of the richthofen strike ingame. It is all there to look at. There will be no double torpedo.

Whatever else we might think of WG they DO use pre-acces data of the lines to tweak the high tiers, wouldnt be first time T10 gets changed in the last moment, we need to see the ship in flesh...

[Excavatus]

4 minutes ago, Pappus said:

Wasn't it an iron rule that there should be no ship that basically can't do anything against another ship?

you've said this in a post where you are talking about a new CV line.. 
but what can an IJN torp boat do against Auda or Midway rockets? 

If you gonna say, stay next to other ships, then I'll say, so german CVs spot the DDs.. and others kill it.. 

same thing eh?

 

I'm not defending anything here.. just stating my observations. 

I've tested all german CVs.. and I decided "Nah!" not gonna play them.. If they stay like this.. 

being useless against DDs is not my type of game.. but appereantly after more than a year and a half.. 

May be WG is trying to hear the scream of the DD players... 

[Pappus]

24 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

you've said this in a post where you are talking about a new CV line.. 
but what can an IJN torp boat do against Auda or Midway rockets? 

If you gonna say, stay next to other ships, then I'll say, so german CVs spot the DDs.. and others kill it.. 

same thing eh?

 

I'm not defending anything here.. just stating my observations. 

I've tested all german CVs.. and I decided "Nah!" not gonna play them.. If they stay like this.. 

being useless against DDs is not my type of game.. but appereantly after more than a year and a half.. 

May be WG is trying to hear the scream of the DD players... 

 

You are mixing up situations. If you want to pull that example, then correctly you would bring the DD that shoots and torps the german CV, but it evades every single bullet perfectly. Sometimes a lucky stray shot hits for neglectable damage.

 

No matter from where he comes, before the bullet can land in a meaningful fashion the german CV turns and dodges. There is no ship in the game that can do this, yet all DDs can do this against only the german CV line.

 

Any other ship can damage another ship and kill it in reasonable time e.g. through fires at the very least if the armor penetration is just not there. The CV prerogative is simply that it can do this without being personally there. CVs additionally have limited ammunition. If it takes me too many strikes to kill the target I will not be able to strike at all anymore.

 

The current situation is that the german CV lines damage can be reduced by most classes to levels far below any other class has to suffer and the purpose of this thread is simply asking what this is balanced against. I am closing in on 200 matches on the Parseval alone, the amount of damage mitigation against it is unprecedented not just among CVs, but all classes. It is also not exclusive to DDs. Many cruisers you are matched against will yield a similar result.

 

If we take the new US line for example you can see low speed, bad armor this and that which is all because you have huge guns. In this case you can see why something was done - you gain X for Y. What is the X of the german line, because them being very strong against cruisers is at best half-true.

 

Haku/shokaku AP bombs are about as good as yours, AP rockets can potentially strike some cruisers harder - not all, while striking dds for less. This is already balanced within itself. The overall german CV line however has no such X for Y situation.

 

Edit: Don't misunderstand as an attack. I am really just curious what the devs are thinking, because I simply can't see this. Even if they hear the DD screams, then an overall change would still be needed and not just a crippled km line.

[TheBicentennialman]

Pros:

High AP damage

Cons:

bad AP damage on dd

 

german cv is not made for hunting DD

AP stuff will pass through DD without doin no DMG

 

[DeviousDave02]

2 hours ago, Excavatus said:

the problem is not the German CVs I guess.. 

But with the US and IJN line mostly.. 

 

From my point of view.. 

New CVs, the german ones, indom, FDR.. 

They are getting more and more balanced and "ineffective" in the battle.. against DDs.. 

They are trying to make CVs more balanced I believe.. without saying "we are trying to find a less frustrating place for the CVs in the game" 

The problem is.. US and IJN... They are effective against anything on a very problematic level.. 

Fair enough, BUT if that was their intention then why not just give us (KM CV) a functioning weapon that works against non DD targets eg. high damage slow speed short arming distance, short running distance torpedoes aimed at anti BB and CA work?

 

Instead we get these crippled, shoe horned in "anti DD" torpedoes that are so specialized against DD's that they struggle to cause meaningful damage against other targets and yet are, as pointed out by others in this thread, NOT very good against DD's.

 

The KM CV's would be better off with NO anti DD squadron, as you said yourself, they can happily just spot DD's for the team so others can kill it if needed and instead have a full arsenal of anti CL,CA and BB weapons to bring to a fight rather than 2 effective(ish) squadrons and a lame duck that they do now.

[Excavatus]

3 minutes ago, DeviousDave02 said:

Fair enough, BUT if that was their intention then why not just give us (KM CV) a functioning weapon that works against non DD targets eg. high damage slow speed short arming distance, short running distance torpedoes aimed at anti BB and CA work?

 

Instead we get these crippled, shoe horned in "anti DD" torpedoes that are so specialized against DD's that they struggle to cause meaningful damage against other targets and yet are, as pointed out by others in this thread, NOT very good against DD's.

 

The KM CV's would be better off with NO anti DD squadron, as you said yourself, they can happily just spot DD's for the team so others can kill it if needed and instead have a full arsenal of anti CL,CA and BB weapons to bring to a fight rather than 2 effective(ish) squadrons and a lame duck that they do now.

It all comes to same point where I've said after the rework.. and still saying it. 

There are 2 sides in a game.. you and the enemy... 

for a good game, both sides need to have fun... in general... 

When it comes to CVs, they are impossible to balance.. and achieve mutual fun... most of the time.. 

because the fundementals of the class prevents that.. 

 

yes it is not fun to dev striked by a BB in your Cruiser, or get torped to death in your BB by a DD... 
but BB have fun against cruisers and other BBs, 

Cruisers have fun against BBs and other cruisers and DDs, 

DDs can have fun against BBs, CAs, DDs... (depends on the DD) 

 

but almost no class having fun against a CV :) does not matter what you do.. 

Because the counter is mostly automatic, or something that kills your fun further down.. 

So, KM CVs, they cannot have fun against DDs now.. unlike some other lines.. 

but that does not mean DDs can have fun against KM CVs.. only a general revenge :) 

[TheBicentennialman]

why Not just boost KM rocket so they only do module  DMG to dd without full on dmg