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Gebbly

Just how intelligent are the bots?

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[FMJ]
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Hi All,

I found myself in a co-op match the other day and all that were left on my team were myself and a couple of bots against 3 or 4 bots on the other team and it was going to be a close battle and it got me thinking.

 

Most of the time the bots seem to just do their own thing but I was wondering, in a co-op game can I influence their behaviour? For example if we really need to take the caps to catch up on points and I use the preset chat "Capture that area" would a bot do so? Or if I'm in a cruiser and its me and a friendly battleship bot left against an enemy battleship bot if I used the chat "Concentrate all fire on enemy target" would the friendly battleship come and target the enemy battleship?

 

I'm curious if anyone has influenced the bots behaviour in any way?

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You can influence bots by shooting at 'em.

 

 

 

More seriously, you can't communicate with bots, ingame chat quick command are ignored.

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Much like most human players, bot ships do not, in any way, react to in-game chat messages.

 

But I will freely admit that I find the very idea that they might do so, to be hugely entertaining. It would put a whole new spin on Co-op and Scenario battles! :Smile_veryhappy:

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[FMJ]
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It would make some battles far more strategic. I have played co-op battles late at night before in which I was the only human player in the battle. Being able to influence bots in a situation like that would be really useful.

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[EST]
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11 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

But I will freely admit that I find the very idea that they might do so, to be hugely entertaining. It would put a whole new spin on Co-op and Scenario battles! :Smile_veryhappy:

I can imagine 1 player hits F3 on BB, other F3-s DD and poor bot is turning its turrets whole match without shooting.:cap_haloween:

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24 minutes ago, Gebbly said:

It would make some battles far more strategic. I have played co-op battles late at night before in which I was the only human player in the battle. Being able to influence bots in a situation like that would be really useful.

 

So it would. But permit me a couple of questions?

  1. If there are several human players on the team, what would be the chain of command? Would the bots simply obey the last command given? Or would the player with the most battles under his belt be Admiral of the Fleet, and thus be able to override the bot commands of his subordinate team mates? Or would supreme command go to the captain with the most skill points? And what would happen in a tie?
  2. Or do you imagine this function to kick in only in a battle with just a single human player? If so, should it also activate in a situation where all human players but one are sunk?
  3. Should the ability to command the bots be dependent on still being alive, or should a human player be able to direct the bots even after being sunk himself?

As I've said above, I find your idea to be hugely entertaining. But I'd imagine it to be more of a single-player game thing. It would most likely require an inordinate amount of programming effort, to work in WoWs. In any case, though - my compliments for brainstorming, Captain Gebbly! It's what this game needs!

 

:Smile_honoring:

 

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Weekend Tester
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I've long had a suspicion that, in a co-op game, both teams are actually human - WG's server just makes it so that each team sees bot :names on the other team.

 

 

 

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Just now, cracktrackflak said:

I've long had a suspicion that, in a co-op game, both teams are actually human - WG's server just makes it so that each team sees bot :names on the other team.

That would explain a few embarrassing losses in Co-op games, I guess.

 

(Yes, I've been outplayed by bots. It can happen to anyone; just ask Kyle Reese.)

 

Spoiler

 

 

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1 hour ago, Procrastes said:

Much like most human players, bot ships do not, in any way, react to in-game chat messages.

Then why is my chat always banned? Bots get ofended when you call them bots?

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22 minutes ago, Azalgor said:

Then why is my chat always banned? Bots get ofended when you call them bots?

 

I'm going to let Sarah Connor's room mate, Ginger, take this one:

 

Spoiler

 

 

(The relevant part is about 2:20 minutes in.)

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[FMJ]
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My initial post was more of a query. I was interested if WoWs had implemented anything like this and if so how I interact with it. Since they havent maybe its something they could add to their list of possible future ideas. I can see it would be complicated to implement if its not already in place. I would think the simplest approach would be to make it kick in in any game where there is only a single human player left alive and that player can "influence" but not directly control the bots on their team with reasonably vague commands like prioritising a target or capturing an area if possible.

 

Occasionally it would make a big difference. A co-op game the other night there was myself in a cruiser with very little life left, a friendly BB bot and an enemy BB. I had capped all 3 areas, we were leading on points and I was just trying to survive the timer. The enemy BB was chasing me around islands but the friendly BB was heading off in the other direction. It would have been nice to suggest it helps attack the last remaining ship whilst I'm weaving all over the place.

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[THESO]
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Bots are more intelligent than average player.

 

Ya hate to see it, but its what it is

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33 minutes ago, Gebbly said:

My initial post was more of a query. I was interested if WoWs had implemented anything like this and if so how I interact with it.

In EVE, NPC waged a pretty big war against each other with 0 players involved after CCP upgraded AI in game, even developers were shocked when they found out. Im pretty sure greedy WG cant do anything remotely similar, exept copy/pasta premiums.

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1 minute ago, Azalgor said:

In EVE, NPC waged a pretty big war against each other with 0 players involved after CCP upgraded AI in game, even developers were shocked when they found out. Im pretty sure greedy WG cant do anything remotely similar, exept copy/pasta premiums.

 

I mean, WG did have to nerf bots once because they were too good against the average playerbase...

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Just now, El2aZeR said:

I mean, WG did have to nerf bots once because they were too good against the average playerbase...

Just shows the playerbase competence.. And sadly WG aims to please them for obvious reasons

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[BHSFL]
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Coop bots are forced to charge ahead and have little freedom to engage in skilled fights. They can but are held back by their programmed mission. If they make calculaties it is because of focussed fire. 

 

Operations bots also are set to go to certain coordinates or coarses and can also be  easy to be dealt with while they have no freedom to move around. If they make casualties it is because of focussed  fire.  

 

But some get freedom of movement after reaching certain points they can sometimes fight as skilled as human players. Bots can be very accurate in torpedoing, even surpassing many human.

 

 

And indeed when they do that too much complainig starts.... 

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[LSCA]
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at least bots todo something in battle , there are players who play worse than bots

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20 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Operations bots also are set to go to certain coordinates or coarses and can also be  easy to be dealt with while they have no freedom to move around. If they make casualties it is because of focussed  fire.  

Bots seem to be programmed to focus their fire on cruisers first and foremost, which makes them predictable and can open up for some pretty weird stunts if you happen to be sailing in a ship of another class. I haven't yet figured out the target priorities if no cruisers are at hand, but I would guess that they are programmed to go for destroyers before shooting at battleships.

 

This programming also means that bots will typically focus fire much more consistently than human players do, with the possible exception of players who happen to be in a division. This can lead to some rather effective pushes from bots.

 

What makes bots much less interesting to fight against, is that they are not programmed to use their consumables in a way that makes sense. Destroyers will trigger their smoke but still keep sailing straight ahead, consistently outrunning their own smoke cloud. Also, from what I've seen, bot radar ships don't use their radar and bot hydro ships don't use their hydro. And the CV bots seem even more badly programmed, being prone to launching flight after flight of severely under-manned squadrons in mid- to late game.

 

Bots don't take effective evasive action to avoid getting broadsided and citadelled. On the other hand, they are often weirdly capable when it comes to anticipating and avoiding torpedo drops. It's almost as if the AI knows that there are torpedoes in the water...:Smile_smile:

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12 minutes ago, gabberworld said:

at least bots todo something in battle , there are players who play worse than bots

This is true. For one thing, there are no bots that I know of who are members of the Battleship Border Camping Society.

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1 hour ago, Procrastes said:

This programming also means that bots will typically focus fire much more consistently than human players do, with the possible exception of players who happen to be in a division. This can lead to some rather effective pushes from bots.

Yep, I think they can even split fire on a per-ship basis so that the front turrets (for example) are blasting away ahead while the rear turrets swing around to wreck the day of a cruiser that has the temerity to show up fleetingly broadside-on over the other side of the map...

1 hour ago, Procrastes said:

Also, from what I've seen, bot radar ships don't use their radar and bot hydro ships don't use their hydro. And the CV bots seem even more badly programmed, being prone to launching flight after flight of severely under-manned squadrons in mid- to late game.

 

Bots don't take effective evasive action to avoid getting broadsided and citadelled. On the other hand, they are often weirdly capable when it comes to anticipating and avoiding torpedo drops. It's almost as if the AI knows that there are torpedoes in the water...:Smile_smile:

I think they use hydro at least; part of why it's very difficult to effectively torp bot ships is because (so I've heard at any rate) they activate all their spotting gear ASAP (regardless of if it's relevant or not at the time of activation), so my suspicion is that they usually have some hydro going on when first encountered (the same point a lot of people send out torps). I've noticed for example that it's easier to torpedo bot battleships than most cruisers (they usually manoeuvre early enough that the differences in agility aren't much of a factor), and particularly on Aegis (with all of the cruisers there are) it's very unlikely to get hits while other scenarios or just waiting for a while (when presumably the hydro runs out) seem to result in more torps getting through. Also, torping while you're unspotted seems to have a higher success rate even for the same ranges/angles/etc. Then again I've no hard data to back any of that up, it's just how it's seemed to me when I've been paying attention.

 

Bot carriers are a bit of a joke though for sure, I've been sat dead still in a destroyer before and had them rocket a point 300m past my ship. They've definitely improved, though: it used to be that all the carriers could do was send in planes to make little dip-hop manoeuvres overhead that never resulted in actual launches, at least they usually get the payload away nowadays. As usual though with carriers, it's the spotting that tends to be the biggest annoyance.

 

1 hour ago, Procrastes said:

This is true. For one thing, there are no bots that I know of who are members of the Battleship Border Camping Society.

Sure there are, but people are supposed to get banned for using them ;)

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49 minutes ago, NobleSauvage said:

Yep, I think they can even split fire on a per-ship basis so that the front turrets (for example) are blasting away ahead while the rear turrets swing around to wreck the day of a cruiser that has the temerity to show up fleetingly broadside-on over the other side of the map...

Why, that's cheating! No human player can do that!

 

50 minutes ago, NobleSauvage said:

I think they use hydro at least; part of why it's very difficult to effectively torp bot ships is because (so I've heard at any rate) they activate all their spotting gear ASAP (regardless of if it's relevant or not at the time of activation), so my suspicion is that they usually have some hydro going on when first encountered (the same point a lot of people send out torps). I've noticed for example that it's easier to torpedo bot battleships than most cruisers (they usually manoeuvre early enough that the differences in agility aren't much of a factor), and particularly on Aegis (with all of the cruisers there are) it's very unlikely to get hits while other scenarios or just waiting for a while (when presumably the hydro runs out) seem to result in more torps getting through. Also, torping while you're unspotted seems to have a higher success rate even for the same ranges/angles/etc. Then again I've no hard data to back any of that up, it's just how it's seemed to me when I've been paying attention.

I have no proof, by I suspect that the Computer - which has to know about the torpedoes in order to implement their trajectories in the game - secretly informs the bot captains, so that they can take the requisite evasive maneuvers. That's the only explanation I can give for how even ships without hydro, but with bot captains at the helm, can perform such prescietic torpedo dodges.

 

53 minutes ago, NobleSauvage said:

Sure there are, but people are supposed to get banned for using them ;)

Badam-ching!

:Smile_teethhappy:

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4 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

Why, that's cheating! No human player can do that!

It's always an impressive sight seeing a bot battleship with front turrets firing somewhere close over the starboard bow, and rear ones blazing away well abaft the port beam...

4 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

I have no proof, by I suspect that the Computer - which has to know about the torpedoes in order to implement their trajectories in the game - secretly informs the bot captains, so that they can take the requisite evasive maneuvers. That's the only explanation I can give for how even ships without hydro, but with bot captains at the helm, can perform such prescietic torpedo dodges.

It's an AI conspiracy, I tells ya'! Of course it's got prior form: I've seen AI carrier aircraft frequently swing round mid-flight to head towards a destroyer that's completely unspotted and either smoked up or taking extreme evasive action to remain that way...

4 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

Badam-ching!

:Smile_teethhappy:

'What sound do you get if you push a drum kit down a flight of stairs?' ;)

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3 hours ago, Procrastes said:

Bots seem to be programmed to focus their fire on cruisers first and foremost, which makes them predictable and can open up for some pretty weird stunts if you happen to be sailing in a ship of another class. I haven't yet figured out the target priorities if no cruisers are at hand, but I would guess that they are programmed to go for destroyers before shooting at battleships.

 

Their basic programmed targetting list is this - shoot CV's first, then DD's, then Cruisers then BB's - and they'll target which ever ship they can see as the highest priority on that list. There's slight adjustments like remaining target health, distance to bot and ship tier which can alter that list but it's pretty reliable i.e. a cruiser seeing a DD at 14km won't retarget that DD if there's a 2km away BB the bot is already shooting at, but if both enemy ships are at the same range from the bot, it will target the DD first etc.

 

The human DD vs Bot BB interaction makes it interesting as Bot BB's won't fire AP at DD's, so they'll reload HE (taking time) as soon as they target a DD which gives you 25-30 seconds of "safe" time and the second the DD disappears they'll reload AP again, taking even more time, and they'll keep swapping every time they retarget you. So you can use that "Ammo Reload logic" to completely stop a BB firing at anyone for a few minutes, if done right, as you pop into/out of cover.

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5 minutes ago, NobleSauvage said:

'What sound do you get if you push a drum kit down a flight of stairs?' ;) 

I know the sound my volleys do lately

 

thub, thub, :etc_swear:, splash

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3 hours ago, Azalgor said:

Just shows the playerbase competence.. And sadly WG aims to please them for obvious reasons

I am sure people pointed out the problems with that bot AI, if WG wants they could program bots to not only have perfect aim (that they do) but also to constant angle against, keep at maximum range as well blob up and focus fire on a single player at once.

 

And this is even before they make bots cheat and I pretty sure they do that since I seen some strange conga lines going strait at a player despite then having no reason to so that, they knew my position despite being in a DD that wasnt detected and was behind a island.

 

You are not going to out-micro a bot and its very easy to give then anti-player bias, even now bots have perfect aim and a few cheats were they are only bad at making what can be called "decisions" such as using consumables but you cannot really program that very well since its condition set ... so you just let then "cheat", do you want bots to be invulnerable to fires? Because WG can do that too.

 

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