Bismarck Questions

[Sir_Sinksalot]

Hi guys, 

 

Just before I go using up the last 4 skill points of my commander I would like to know a few thing about this ship. I bought this ship because I only have one other T8, completed the Bismarck collection and so have a choice of 3 perma-camo's for it which is really nice obviously, and a spare 10 pointer I wanted to put to good use plus from a historical point of view I guess it's an interesting ship for that brief time it was afloat. Now, I'll most likely only ever be using this ship in Co-op for completing directives and possibly ranked battles too though I think the big gunned Russian Vlad is probably going to be a better brute force BB with those big cal guns for chomping through enemy armor. 

 

As it stands, I have the following "bread and butter" skills selected

 

 

So my questions are.

 

1. What is the strong points of this ship to focus a build around?

2. How are it's secondaries?

3. What major weaknesses do I need to be aware of?

 

I went with the aiming system mod for better main gun accuracy but it still leaves this ship with a pretty impressive 7.9 km secondary gun range so not knowing much about this ship I am tempted to go with the Manual Fire Control skill which will significantly increase the accuracy of the secondary guns which given the lack of main gun numbers, could be very useful for countering DD's and setting other classes on fire etc, which I would find really impressive and useful on the tier 7 predecessor Gneisenau. This leaves the ship less vulnerable during main gun reloads and rng dictated non-citadels and such, it's just really nice to have that secondary gun backup to fall back on plus the Bis doesn't have those delicious torpedoes the Gneise has sadly. That said, I also really like to have the Superintendent skill on my BB's since you get an extra repair party and thus get to live longer if used sensibly, plus the extra fighter and hydro consumable is great too. Picking the 3 skill point Superintendent would also leave me with 1 free skill point for either Expert Loader or Preventative Maintenance which are great skills to have too for a slow loading BB or just to reduce the likelihood of losing a main gun.

 

Can you guys share with me your thoughts about this ship, where those 4 skill points should go and the performance of the secondaries etc?

 

Thanks.

[Admiral_Oily_Discharge]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

1. What is the strong points of this ship to focus a build around? 

• Bals
• Hydro
• Full secondary build
• Moar bals
• Profit

2 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

2. How are it's secondaries?

They are powerful I go for a full secondary build and use it to brawl, it's so much fun for watching your secondaries hammer a target is fun to watch.

2 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

3. What major weaknesses do I need to be aware of?

Play cautiously, get in an interesting position from which you can engage few targets at a time without getting too much retaliation from the entire enemy fleet, take opportunistic shots at cruisers and destroyers, and wait until the battle develops. If you avoid getting into crossfire then you will be fine .Her hp is your aggression resource later in the game. Let DDs do their own stuff and only risk your ship if they play well enough to be saved .

In short ,

Patience

Moar Patience

BREAKTHRU ENEMY LINES :D

[VeryHonarbrah]

Strong points are your good armour, when angles and your ability to turn out and not get cit because of your turtle back. - Your secondaries are worth specing into, but wouldn't go as far as IFHE, either run a CE, AFT build, a CE, AFT, Man or a Aft man, and drop CE. - Your main weaknesses are your lack of overmatch, meh pen on the 380s, poor dispersion and low amount of guns, not to mention a huge super structure. - Your current cpt is very questionable, SE should only be used on dds, and some cruisers at higher tiers, but never ever on bbs! For a 10 pointer, the basics of PT, AR, SI and CE are the way to go

[Commander_Ericson]

Just for Coop, I'd suggest AFT to get the secondaries range up. If you're using it for randoms or anything else, concealment or fire prevention are probably of higher value.

 

I have a 14 point at the moment with AFT and concealment. I'll go manual secondaries or fire prevention for next 4 points.

[DFens_666]

7 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

As it stands, I have the following "bread and butter" skills selected 

 

The following is meant as an honest question:

Why do you think, SE is a good skill for a BB? Please tell me, because i dont understand it, why/how someone gets to that conclusion. And we all know, how many BBs are using SE these days, so i want to know the reasoning behind it.

 

Bismarck has 2 options

- standard BB tank build

- Secondary build

 

Both can work, however tank build is often better/easier, especially in TX MM, where its harder to get into secondary range. As toptier, secondary build can be fun.

 

Tankbuild is

- PT, EM/AR, SI/BoS, FP/CE

 

Secondary build is

- PT, AR, SI, Manual sec/AFT/FP + 1 left for something else PM if you feel like it

I personaly would take FP there, because you can and it helps against HE spam. If you want to be balsy, you could take BFT and EM instead for 19pts.

[Miscommunication_dept]

Secondarys are great but to be honest AFT without manual secondaries is pointless and Man secs without AFT is a 10km range.

If it was me I would go for fire prevention now and save secondaries for when you have 18 points.

[VanHelgen]

 

Here is a good example of the playstyle, wait for an opportunity where you can outmatch your enemies, ask your team mates for support and battering ram their whole entire flank.

I know it isn't the bismarck in this video but the gameplay is very similar. The main difference being you can't launch torps, but you  have more chance to avoid them.

Be wary of a passive team though, if it looks like they are huffing paint and retreating from nothing/going round in circles in the back like woodlice exposed to light, contain your frustration and play more defensively, since they are literally forcing you to

[Sir_Sinksalot]

19 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

The following is meant as an honest question:

Why do you think, SE is a good skill for a BB? Please tell me, because i dont understand it, why/how someone gets to that conclusion. And we all know, how many BBs are using SE these days, so i want to know the reasoning behind it.

 

 

It gives extra hp, almost an additional 3k hp so... I guess the logic was, this is a BB, gets spotted first typically and also typically attracts a lot of shots and because of it's size and lack of agility also takes a lot shots. So having more health means more tank, means more last. There's been many a battle in which I survived and won just because of that little bit more hp or wouldn't have died and lost if I had this skill and it's additional hp. I'm sure you and other players can vouch for those pretty common moments in which had you just a little bit more hp you would have won and not died or at least lasted that bit longer to get in that last reload for an important last salvo etc so, that was my thinking. Is it so wrong? Maybe, but it has logic to it. 

[Miragetank90]

1st of all, this ''bread and butter build'' needs work.

 

Aim for something like this. A hybrid secondary/survivability build like this plays to the ships strengths while also being a blast. 

 

 

For 10pts, go PT/PM, AR, SI, and FP as 4 pointer for now.

Remove Survivability expert. Excellent for a DD thanks to the large % HP gain you get for 3 pts. Worthless skill for a BB for the opposite reason.  

 

So, Bismarck in a nutshell

 

+ Very potent secondaries in all respects, with good firing arcs.

+ Truly excellent durability - you can shrug off so much and keep going.

+ Good DPM on main battery. 

+ Hydro. Extremely useful. 

 

- Not the greatest accuracy. Broadside weight on the weaker side. 

- Meh concealment, but not too bad. Workable.

- Lacking overmatch VS. 27mm plating. 

 

That's about it for weaknesses really. 

The community at large thinks Bismarck is a weak ship though. It's funny.

(They couldn't be more wrong)

[_Teob_]

Moved to BB section

[Sir_Sinksalot]

5 minutes ago, _Teob_ said:

Moved to BB section

 

That's not helpful. You could have left if for a day what was the harm? I see plenty of CV, BB, DD and other topics that could have been pigeon holed to their "rightful" topic locations but you didn't do those so why move my question almost as soon as I posted this thread? 

 

Anyway there was some great answers already so I got what I wanted.

[_Teob_]

13 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

 

That's not helpful. You could have left if for a day what was the harm? I see plenty of CV, BB, DD and other topics that could have been pigeon holed to their "rightful" topic locations but you didn't do those so why move my question almost as soon as I posted this thread? 

 

Anyway there was some great answers already so I got what I wanted.

 

I don't remember seeing these "plenty" of topics you mean. I move threads to the appropriate sections all the time (when I see them) - some might stay in wrong sections for longer if no mod notices them. We do take vacations and stuff.

I genuinely don't think I can or want to change your perception but it's not accurate.

 

If you got what you wanted, does that mean I can lock this thread?

 

[DFens_666]

14 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

 

It gives extra hp, almost an additional 3k hp so... I guess the logic was, this is a BB, gets spotted first typically and also typically attracts a lot of shots that more health means more tank means more last. There's been many a battle in which I won where I would have lost with just that little bit more hp or wouldn't have died if I had this skill and it's additional hp. I'm sure you and other players can vouch for those pretty common moments in which had you just a little bit more hp you would have won and not died or at least least lasted those few seconds longer to get in that last reload for an important last salvo etc so, that was my thinking. Is it so wrong? Maybe, but it has logic to it. 

 

Well, thanks, atleast that explains it.

Now we can fix that

 

Basicly SE "looks" better, as you can see the impact from it. If you take SE, and survive with a few k HP, you could say you survived because of it. And that you can heal slightly more (400 per heal) because repair party works based on maximum HP - but so does fire damage. If a fire burns for 60 sec, you will lose 500HP more, than if you wouldnt have SE skilled.

 

Now lets look at the options:

- Superintendent

- BoS

 

SI gives you an extra heal (and hydro ofc). One heal gives you extra ~9600 HP, which is a lot more than the extra 2800 + 400 (times 4 from 4 heals) you can get by using SE. And you dont receive more firedamage as a result, which already negates the effect of having more HP.

 

Ofc you can say, you can use SE and SI. But you would lose BoS guaranteed

BoS gives -15% to fire/flood and repair duration. A fire burning for 60 secs removes 18% of your max HP, for Bismarck (69200), that would be 12456 damage. With BoS, you only lose 15,3% of your health, which is 10588. Difference is 1868 damage. So 2 full duration fires already take more HP away from you (3736) than you get from using SE (2800).

 

BoS + SI is a better combo, even if you dont see the effect, but its still there and its better.

[Sir_Sinksalot]

3 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Well, thanks, atleast that explains it.

Now we can fix that

 

Basicly SE "looks" better, as you can see the impact from it. If you take SE, and survive with a few k HP, you could say you survived because of it. And that you can heal slightly more (400 per heal) because repair party works based on maximum HP - but so does fire damage. If a fire burns for 60 sec, you will lose 500HP more, than if you wouldnt have SE skilled.

 

Now lets look at the options:

- Superintendent

- BoS

 

SI gives you an extra heal (and hydro ofc). One heal gives you extra ~9600 HP, which is a lot more than the extra 2800 + 400 (times 4 from 4 heals) you can get by using SE. And you dont receive more firedamage as a result, which already negates the effect of having more HP.

 

Ofc you can say, you can use SE and SI. But you would lose BoS guaranteed

BoS gives -15% to fire/flood and repair duration. A fire burning for 60 secs removes 18% of your max HP, for Bismarck (69200), that would be 12456 damage. With BoS, you only lose 15,3% of your health, which is 10588. Difference is 1868 damage. So 2 full duration fires already take more HP away from you (3736) than you get from using SE (2800).

 

BoS + SI is a better combo, even if you dont see the effect, but its still there and its better.

 

Thanks for this insightful answer to a question I was actually going to ask. +1. 

 

There's some skills that I find a very tough choice to make tbh. The one pointers are more clear cut but for the 2 skill I always liked having my slow BB turrets turn a bit faster so I go with the EM skill which may be a bit placebo with bigger caliber guns but I feel reduces the need to over-angle and perhaps go too much broadside in an effort to use my ships turning rather than the turret to force those slow turning turrets onto a target I really want to shoot ASAP lol. Now, if the commander has special skills with a boost to some other 2 point skill(or 3 or 4 point etc) I will tend to lean towards that if it suits the build obviously.

 

I know a lot of players tend to go with Adrenaline Rush for the second skill but while the having faster reloading guns is nice obviously and while the gains of EM on big caliber guns is marginal, I don't really feel there's much benefit in AR since even with your ship reduced to half its hp, that still only translates into a 10% faster reloading gun(unless my math is wrong) so instead of 30 seconds it's 27 seconds, that's... bordering on the placebo again lol. Ok so at a glance it looks like that with a standard commander(without any special skills) there's no major gains from any 2 point skills. Certainly I'd like to have them all and Last Stand is my go-to for a DD(though the second equipment slot Engine Room Protection has reduced this vulnerability somewhat) but otherwise I don't see much gained or lost for going with one skill or the other from that 2 point offering.

 

The 3 point options, again with a BB being the focus for this chat, there's some really nice skill here. Am I correct in assuming that for a BB the SI skill is the first choice 3 pointer here then? Sure, the BoS is reducing the time on fire and flooding which will work in conjunction with Damage Control System and signals of course but tbh, and after playing a good amount of ranked battles at tier7 with the Sinop, I just don't find myself ablaze all that often and with damage control parties, not for all that long either, not to contradict your full fire hp loss comment but rather to just report my dealings with fires when I play BBs(but maybe because I play too far back lol). Ok so you're saying that either of these skills actually work out better than the hp gains from SE, ok fine and I can see by your explanation why that is. I think I'm gonna go ahead and change that to SI which was always a close choice with me anyway and especially with ships featuring lots of consumables.

 

4 point skills. Well I've decided that with the great above comments and game mode I will most be playing with this Bismarck that I'll be going with a secondary build(which is SO much fun) and therefore MFC to get those secondaries landing shots. 

[Sir_Sinksalot]

Oh btw(assuming anyone even comes to this section of the forum) I see there's a difference between the secondaries on the stock and upgraded hulls. Since this is going to be a secondary build I'm wondering is the secondary gun offering and configuration hull B an improvement over hull A? Do hull B's secondaries deal more damage and have a better or worse sector etc, or maybe hull A is better for a secondary build?

[DFens_666]

2 hours ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Am I correct in assuming that for a BB the SI skill is the first choice 3 pointer here then?

 

Yes, you can basicly take SI always on BBs as the first point skill. That extra heal is often useful. Ofc you need to survive long enough to use all heals. I guess for people, who always rush in and die it wont help much lol...

For BBs, i always go that way:

PT -> AR* -> SI -> CE ->FP -> BoS -> EM

*i used to take EM before AR because i also thought, that extra turret traverse is nice. But in reality, its not so much. Also remember, AR boosts secondary reload aswell. While in theory, the gain from AR isnt really much (its like having an extra salvo every 10 salvos if you shoot nonstop) BUT there are times, where you can just shoot at a ship, moving behind cover, which you might not be able to do without AR. Or just getting the reload in for a ship which is broadside and starting to angle.

 

For secondary build, you can start the same way

PT -> AR -> SI -> Manual sec -> AFT -> FP -> PM (to me the most "useful" out of the remaining 1 pointers).

As i said earlier, i prefer AR. Sure you could take BoS (or even BFT, but i wouldnt) and EM instead of FP and PM, but im not sure if thats more fun.

 

1 hour ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Oh btw(assuming anyone even comes to this section of the forum) I see there's a difference between the secondaries on the stock and upgraded hulls. Since this is going to be a secondary build I'm wondering is the secondary gun offering and configuration hull B an improvement over hull A? Do hull B's secondaries deal more damage and have a better or worse sector etc, or maybe hull A is better for a secondary build?

 

It shouldnt change much, only 2 older secondaries get replaced by a newer version, which doesnt seem to change anything (atleast according to wowsft). But B hull has better ruddershift and more HP.

[Sir_Sinksalot]

I have 3 skill points to use on this Normandie Commander. Any pointers here guys? Oh and it's most definitely NOT a secondary build in this case lol.(even the secondaries are pretty good tbh)

 

 

 

[BangBangDown]

Am 10.7.2020 um 16:26, DFens_666 sagte:

Bismarck has 2 options

- standard BB tank build

- Secondary build

Pretty much this. 

If its your first T8 BB or if you are unexperienced go for a standard BB tank build and forget about those secondarys. 

 

Bringing those to work is a difficult task, because you can't just yolo in if it means eunning into multiple enemys - your secondary firework will be a really short experience otherwise. 

 

If you have T8 BB experience (or maybe in Coop it might work as well) I suggest a full secondary build just to have a different BB experience. 

My full secondary build advise (in that order) 

- Fighter or Prio Target

- adrenalien (as turrets rotate fast enough) 

- super intendent (you need the extra heal) 

- manual secondary (for the noticable better dispersion of secs.) 

- AFT

- Basic of survivability (or BFT) 

- jack of all trades

 

Additinally the secondary range upgrade in slot 3 (instead of acuracy), rudder or survivability in slot 4 and camo for slot 5. Add the secondary range flag for getting the max of 11.3km sec range. Use all flags that reduce fire, flooding and give the 20% more heal. This secondary build makes you vulnurable to HE spam, so manage your repair partys and heals is important. After a short range attack you migjt want to retreat a bit for using 1 or 2 heals before you go in again. And be patient (especially in T10 games), you need to get close for making the secs work, but not running into multiple enemys, or into torp range of cruisers or BBs. So keep them at 8-11 km. Use your hydro if you are suspecting a DD around. As I said this build needs experience and practise but if you master it its a funny alternative to standard BBs. 

 

My Bismarck experience in a nutshell. 

[BangBangDown]

Vor 2 Stunden, Sir_Sinksalot sagte:

I have 3 skill points to use on this Normandie Commander. Any pointers here guys?

I'm not particulary familiar with the french BB, but my suggestion for your remaining 8 points would be:

Take two 4 points skills: conceilment and fire prevention. That looks like a solid, standard and tanky BB commander then.