1/5 HE penetration for T8+ BBs 152-155mm secondaries?

[KeyJay]

So I wondered... Since tier 8-10 cruisers with 152-155mm guns have HE penetration 1/5 of their caliber,  why not apply the same rules to 152-155mm secondaries of tier 8+ battleships?

 

Now I know that apart from German BBs and Massa/Georg/Ohio, secondary builds are generally not worth it. And I know that WG introduced this 1/5 HE penetration so that cruisers can penetrate other cruisers with HE without the need for IFHE. But this penetration change would actually mean, that Japanese, French and Russian battleships would have penetration against cruisers.  And why? (Since French BBs have crap armor and secondaries are easily destroyed, Russians would quickly run out of DCP and suffer from fires and Japanese have crap citadels and rudder shift times?)

 

Because fun. To create more opportunities for making different builds on new ships. French and Russian 152mm and Japanese 155mm secondary guns would be able to penetrate (cruiser) 30mm plating and thus the secondary build would be (kind of) worth it now.

 

I don't think that it would be a straight big buff to these ships. If players would not go for secondary builds, it would mean almost nothing. IJN 155mm reload slowly, Russian 152mm have bad range and French 152mm guns might not exist after few minutes in the battle. But it would definitely mean, that the players would have a reason to try out secondary builds on these nations. For me, secondary builds are just fun. And currently, players generally make one survival build (apart from German and US as mentioned in the beginning). It could mean bigger variety.

 

It's just my opinion/proposal. I like when games give players multiple ways how to approach, customize and have fun in the game. 

[DFens_666]

Or just skill IFHE?

The problem is, if you buff it to 30mm without IFHE, then you can go past 32mm pen with IFHE, which also lets you pen BBs.

 

I used to play Massa with IFHE/AFT/Manual sec, and it only has 127mm guns.

[Yedwy]

It is a valid question OP raised, IMO the whole this muh its all 1/6 pen EXCEPT bla bla bla system is ridiculous... WG made a complete mess of the whole IFHE armor and penetration rework and now with German DDs joining the exception category is even more complicated to keep track of it all...

[semiGM]

No BB buffs pls.

[KeyJay]

Před 1 hodinou DFens_666 řekl/a:

Or just skill IFHE?

The problem is, if you buff it to 30mm without IFHE, then you can go past 32mm pen with IFHE, which also lets you pen BBs.

 

I used to play Massa with IFHE/AFT/Manual sec, and it only has 127mm guns.

Do you think that someone would invest 4 captain points into IFHE, just to be able to penetrate 32mm armor with some of his secondaries? Like with Yamato for example - the 155mm secondaries have a reload time of 12s base. And the 127mm guns on tier 10 wouldn't get anything extra from the IFHE... 

 

Před 57 minutami Yedwy řekl/a:

It is a valid question OP raised, IMO the whole this muh its all 1/6 pen EXCEPT bla bla bla system is ridiculous... WG made a complete mess of the whole IFHE armor and penetration rework and now with German DDs joining the exception category is even more complicated to keep track of it all...

I'm not a harcore player by far and I personally do not see a problem in HE penetration blablabla system.  I remembered it pretty easily. That's why my idea was to make it exactly like cruisers - 152-155mm guns at tier 8-10.

 

Před 41 minutami semiGM řekl/a:

No BB buffs pls.

I don't think that it's a buff. If someone decides to make a secondary build, he is losing a lot in terms of survivability of the ship. If you don't do a secondary build, then the guns very rarely hit = almost no buff. My proposal was just to make the secondary build kind of worth it on other ships than just Germans.

[Beastofwar]

The only problematic secondaries are the Italian ones....can't penetrate DD hulls (19mm) even WITH IFHE ( 18 mm ) ....making them truely useless.

[DFens_666]

6 minutes ago, KeyJay said:

Do you think that someone would invest 4 captain points into IFHE, just to be able to penetrate 32mm armor with some of his secondaries? Like with Yamato for example - the 155mm secondaries have a reload time of 12s base. And the 127mm guns on tier 10 wouldn't get anything extra from the IFHE... 

 

Because secondaries penetrating BB armor is actually better than penetrating Cruiser armor.

Just looking at the TX BBs here, Repu, Kremlin and Yamato. You think, ANY Cruiser would want to be in secondary range of those big caliber BBs, which overmatch them at basicly any spot? The only ones, that wouldnt care so much, are Moskva and Stalingrad, and surprise - they have 50mm armor, so secondaries wouldnt hurt them regardless.

 

At the same time, Kremlin f.e. would profit from secondaries, that can BB armor, Yamato not so much. Repu probably could, as french secondaries have best range.

For GK, this is entirely different now. All TX CAs can angle against it with the 30mm side plating and lower the damage they take. So working secondaries actually holds Cruisers off from just rushing it.

[KeyJay]

Před 6 minutami DFens_666 řekl/a:

 

Because secondaries penetrating BB armor is actually better than penetrating Cruiser armor.

Just looking at the TX BBs here, Repu, Kremlin and Yamato. You think, ANY Cruiser would want to be in secondary range of those big caliber BBs, which overmatch them at basicly any spot? The only ones, that wouldnt care so much, are Moskva and Stalingrad, and surprise - they have 50mm armor, so secondaries wouldnt hurt them regardless.

 

At the same time, Kremlin f.e. would profit from secondaries, that can BB armor, Yamato not so much. Repu probably could, as french secondaries have best range.

For GK, this is entirely different now. All TX CAs can angle against it with the 30mm side plating and lower the damage they take. So working secondaries actually holds Cruisers off from just rushing it.

That's a good point! These secondaries would be way more situational than in the case of 1/4 HE pen of Gemans no doubt... But then again, if someone would end up 10km away from Yamato, trying to torp it or just by mistake, it could help to (at least) fend them off.

Kremlin doesn't have 152-155mm secondaries, so he wouldn't get this benefit that I am proposing. Plus the Kremlin is a beast on close range anyway - Kremlin secondary build would be way too much in my opinion.

[Odo_Toothless]

Without additional IFHE perk only for secondaries, build with 50% less fire chance attached to main guns too, is nonsense anyway. BTW. IFHE is now a trade off, so 4 points for such skill is an extortion.

[Johnny_Moneto]

Vor 9 Stunden, KeyJay sagte:

I don't think that it's a buff. If someone decides to make a secondary build, he is losing a lot in terms of survivability of the ship. If you don't do a secondary build, then the guns very rarely hit = almost no buff. My proposal was just to make the secondary build kind of worth it on other ships than just Germans.

If you make more BB secondaries effective against cruisers, you would in return increase the long range HE spam of cruisers against BBs and this would lead to another 5000+ whining threads of BB Kevins. Please no.

[KeyJay]

Před 9 hodinami Johnny_Moneto řekl/a:

If you make more BB secondaries effective against cruisers, you would in return increase the long range HE spam of cruisers against BBs and this would lead to another 5000+ whining threads of BB Kevins. Please no.

What I am proposing/suggesting, would not lead to proper secondary builds. Only a few secondaries would actually get the 1/5 HE penetration, nowhere close to the amount of 1/4 HE penetration German secondary guns. It's just an idea to make the gameplay more variable. And I don't think that it would make any change in the player's behaviour. The long range HE cruiser spam is well alive and - as DFens_666 rightly pointed out - cruisers tend to keep their distance anyway, because a lot of them have overmatchable armor.

[BruceRKF]

20 hours ago, KeyJay said:

So I wondered... Since tier 8-10 cruisers with 152-155mm guns have HE penetration 1/5 of their caliber,  why not apply the same rules to 152-155mm secondaries of tier 8+ battleships?

 

Now I know that apart from German BBs and Massa/Georg/Ohio, secondary builds are generally not worth it. And I know that WG introduced this 1/5 HE penetration so that cruisers can penetrate other cruisers with HE without the need for IFHE. But this penetration change would actually mean, that Japanese, French and Russian battleships would have penetration against cruisers.  And why? (Since French BBs have crap armor and secondaries are easily destroyed, Russians would quickly run out of DCP and suffer from fires and Japanese have crap citadels and rudder shift times?)

 

Because fun. To create more opportunities for making different builds on new ships. French and Russian 152mm and Japanese 155mm secondary guns would be able to penetrate (cruiser) 30mm plating and thus the secondary build would be (kind of) worth it now.

 

I don't think that it would be a straight big buff to these ships. If players would not go for secondary builds, it would mean almost nothing. IJN 155mm reload slowly, Russian 152mm have bad range and French 152mm guns might not exist after few minutes in the battle. But it would definitely mean, that the players would have a reason to try out secondary builds on these nations. For me, secondary builds are just fun. And currently, players generally make one survival build (apart from German and US as mentioned in the beginning). It could mean bigger variety.

 

It's just my opinion/proposal. I like when games give players multiple ways how to approach, customize and have fun in the game. 

Yeah, my Alsace would love that! Yes, I am running a secondary build with IFHE and yes, I know I would have better results with survivability build. However, I think it's fun going in with all guns blazing!

[KeyJay]

Před 14 minutami BruceRKF řekl/a:

Yeah, my Alsace would love that! Yes, I am running a secondary build with IFHE and yes, I know I would have better results with survivability build. However, I think it's fun going in with all guns blazing!

My thoughts exactly! Only few of your secondaries would get the buff but it would (maybe) give you the feeling that the secondary build is worth it. And you might save the 4 commander points invested into IFHE. 

[BruceRKF]

1 hour ago, KeyJay said:

My thoughts exactly! Only few of your secondaries would get the buff but it would (maybe) give you the feeling that the secondary build is worth it. And you might save the 4 commander points invested into IFHE. 

Nope, IFHE is not for the 152 mm guns, but for the 100 mm guns. Excellent for shredding DDs. The 152 load too slowly to make a difference.

[Beastofwar]

12 hours ago, Johnny_Moneto said:

If you make more BB secondaries effective against cruisers, you would in return increase the long range HE spam of cruisers against BBs and this would lead to another 5000+ whining threads of BB Kevins. Please no.

 

Well, a lot of the larger secondaries seem to be able to penetrate 25-27 mm armour with IFHE so they can shoot superstructure, bow and stern of most cruisers. And with other secondary talents from 7 km up to 11 km varying on the ship they are on. And you can improve accuracy in multiple ways too.

 

What i wonder about is with the reduced fire chance the actual damage they do is actually worth it. As IFHE cruiser guns already seem to suffer greatly with reduced fire chance, and these larger secondaries are actual Cruiser guns with gimped range.

[Johnny_Moneto]

Vor 2 Minuten, Beastofwar sagte:

 

Well, a lot of the larger secondaries seem to be able to penetrate 25-27 mm armour with IFHE so they can shoot superstructure, bow and stern of most cruisers. And with other secondary talents from 7 km up to 11 km varying on the ship they are on. And you can improve accuracy in multiple ways too.

 

Secondaries always fire at the center of mass of a ship. If they hit anything else it is of dispersion (RNG).

[Beastofwar]

40 minutes ago, Johnny_Moneto said:

Secondaries always fire at the center of mass of a ship. If they hit anything else it is of dispersion (RNG).

 

Yes i understood so much buffing secondary range and accuracy but not always IFHE, in order for secondaries to be able to penetrate 19 mm but not higher anymore. That way it is no problem secondaries  aim for center mass of DD as they penetrate that too.

 

Cruisers and BB are then for the main guns...small guns for the small targets, big guns for the big targets.

 

The Italian secondaries i don't know what to do with though....they can pen only 18 mm WITH IFHE so cannot pen T9+ DD hulls....very disappointing on the tier 8+ IT BB and Cruisers that face up to T10 DD. Now IT Cruiser main guns shooting at DD thats acceptable, SAP is very efficient at it....but BB (Roma)  main guns ? They should not need to fire on DD.

 

[KeyJay]

V 8. 7. 2020 v 22:18 Beastofwar řekl/a:

The only problematic secondaries are the Italian ones....can't penetrate DD hulls (19mm) even WITH IFHE ( 18 mm ) ....making them truely useless.

Wow, I didn't realise Italians use 90mm guns unable to penetrate DDs. Well, I guess we'll see how the whole Italian BB tree will look like when they come to the game. Maybe they will get some special treatment. With my proposal, Roma for example would be at least able to penetrate cruiser armor with hers 152mm secondaries.

 

Před 13 hodinami Johnny_Moneto řekl/a:

Secondaries always fire at the center of mass of a ship. If they hit anything else it is of dispersion (RNG).

Yea, that's the reason what made me think of this 1/5 HE penetration for 152-155mm guns. So that at least some secondaries could pen cruiser hulls (gosh they're light cruiser guns basically :D). It would play even bigger role on very close ranges, where - with manual secondary aiming - they are all hitting the hull.

[Beastofwar]

1 hour ago, KeyJay said:

With my proposal, Roma for example would be at least able to penetrate cruiser armor with hers 152mm 

 

But the problem is as mentioned automated secondaries fire on centre mass of a ship when they get in accurate ranges.  That is were most cruisers have decent armour meant to stop shells of ( their own class of ) cruiser caliber and thus the secondaries too.

 

Ofcourse they may still penetrate the bow or stern section but secondaries are not very accurate. 

 

When you take IFHE you nerf the fire chance of your main guns also. For almost all ships but the italian ones with SAP that may be damage reducing over the lenght of a match.

 

Do there are things to consider even when not discussing giving up a "survivability build" But instead of IFHE you can very well pick up 10 % less fire chance for a hybrid secondary build with some survivability. Goes for coop an op as well. 

 

 

[KeyJay]

Před 21 minutami Beastofwar řekl/a:

 

But the problem is as mentioned automated secondaries fire on centre mass of a ship when they get in accurate ranges.  That is were most cruisers have decent armour meant to stop shells of ( their own class of ) cruiser caliber and thus the secondaries too.

 

Ofcourse they may still penetrate the bow or stern section but secondaries are not very accurate. 

 

When you take IFHE you nerf the fire chance of your main guns also. For almost all ships but the italian ones with SAP that may be damage reducing over the lenght of a match.

 

Do there are things to consider even when not discussing giving up a "survivability build" But instead of IFHE you can very well pick up 10 % less fire chance for a hybrid secondary build with some survivability. Goes for coop an op as well. 

 

 

I know. That's the reason why I'm bringing up this suggestion - so that high tiered 152-155mm secondary guns can penetrate the hull of a cruiser (most of them have 30mm on the side and 25+ on the bow/stern) without going for IFHE. 

[Beastofwar]

That i wonder about the ( explosive ) HE damage with IFHE. 

 

It feels that the penetrating shots of IFHE hardly compensate for the non penetrating shots of non-IFHE plus ongoing fire damage. Unless they actually can cause citadel ofcourse. Never noticed secondaries doing that though. 

 

In other words against cruisers and BB is the chipping damage worth the lack of fires ? 

 

That is why i kept my secondaries anti-DD only as it will penetrate hulls no matter were they are hit. 

[rnat]

1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

It feels that the penetrating shots of IFHE hardly compensate for the non penetrating shots of non-IFHE plus ongoing fire damage. Unless they actually can cause citadel ofcourse. Never noticed secondaries doing that though. 

 

In other words against cruisers and BB is the chipping damage worth the lack of fires ? 

KM secondaries already get improved penetration, Georgia, Mass and Ohio can't get over any relevant threshold with IFHE and MN and IJN secondaries aren't really worth speccing into.

So no, wouldn't recommend it on anything.

[Promeetheus]

The discussion is about if T8 secondaries should go from 1/6 to 1/5 pen, like the cruiser main turrets have done, not if IFHE is good or not.

 

IMO yes secondaries do need buffing and a 1/5 pen would help.

 

People have a strange concept that secondaries already do immense damage already which isn't true - this is probably due to the amount of videos that show 2..3..4..500 secondary hit ribbons, but if you see just how much damage they do - it's barely above 15,000 in high damage games, split out amongst multiple targets over the course of 15 minutes.  Even when you're fully specced into accuracy and reload, it takes a couple of minutes to take down a stationary ship - how often does a DD or cruiser sit within secondary range, spotted, unmoving?  The aiming of secondaries takes into account your actual movement, if you swerve or change speed then the shots won't hit (accurately, the only hits you get in that instance are 'misses' that ended up hitting) as they take a few seconds to reach you - they don't predict your movement like humans do (knowing you 'will' turn more/less)  so the result is maybe a thousand damage here or there before they escape.

 

The fallacy that secondaries are doing huge amounts of damage is flat out wrong, most of the damage dd's/cl's recieve when in secondary range are from yours or other people's main guns hitting the spotted dd/cl.... the huge number of secondaries hitting at/near them is just a few % of their life.

 

Secondaries definitely need to be more potent - the idea that a dd/cl can sit literally stationary for minutes next to you firing multiple salvos of torps and thousands of gun shells with no risk of dying (it's the main guns that are the threat, or other people also aiming) is ludicrous to me.

 

I'd much prefer it if bb main guns are too slow/innacurate to reliably hit dd's/cl's but instead their secondaries are a real threat to one that gets too close

[KeyJay]

Před 1 hodinou Promeetheus řekl/a:

The discussion is about if T8 secondaries should go from 1/6 to 1/5 pen, like the cruiser main turrets have done, not if IFHE is good or not.

 

IMO yes secondaries do need buffing and a 1/5 pen would help.

 

People have a strange concept that secondaries already do immense damage already which isn't true - this is probably due to the amount of videos that show 2..3..4..500 secondary hit ribbons, but if you see just how much damage they do - it's barely above 15,000 in high damage games, split out amongst multiple targets over the course of 15 minutes.  Even when you're fully specced into accuracy and reload, it takes a couple of minutes to take down a stationary ship - how often does a DD or cruiser sit within secondary range, spotted, unmoving?  The aiming of secondaries takes into account your actual movement, if you swerve or change speed then the shots won't hit (accurately, the only hits you get in that instance are 'misses' that ended up hitting) as they take a few seconds to reach you - they don't predict your movement like humans do (knowing you 'will' turn more/less)  so the result is maybe a thousand damage here or there before they escape.

 

The fallacy that secondaries are doing huge amounts of damage is flat out wrong, most of the damage dd's/cl's recieve when in secondary range are from yours or other people's main guns hitting the spotted dd/cl.... the huge number of secondaries hitting at/near them is just a few % of their life.

 

Secondaries definitely need to be more potent - the idea that a dd/cl can sit literally stationary for minutes next to you firing multiple salvos of torps and thousands of gun shells with no risk of dying (it's the main guns that are the threat, or other people also aiming) is ludicrous to me.

 

I'd much prefer it if bb main guns are too slow/innacurate to reliably hit dd's/cl's but instead their secondaries are a real threat to one that gets too close

Yeap, my thoughts exactly - both with the fact that secondaries that don't deal that much dmg (apart from KM BBs of course) and the fact that CLs/CAs and DDs can quite comfortably be around a BB if a BB is shooting at someone else. And that's why I came up with this idea - not to create new secondary lines, but just give some of them some edge. Heck they're big guns after all. 

 

My proposition would help out IJN and French BBs mostly, but some Russians and (hopefully) Italians could benefit from that as well. This would not touch USN and RN. US BBs have their secondary line ("premium" line, but still), so I don't think it is necessary to do anything there. British BBs are having the same secondaries from tier 7 up which is really garbage. Which got me into thinking that high tiered (probably 7+ in this casey) British BBs would get the same treatment as Germans - 1/4 HE pen on both main and secondary guns. Then those 134mm secondaries, which have trash RoF and range anyway, could get some punch. But this would be a much biggger chance, as it would affect all secondaries (albeit weak)...

 

Anyway, I really don't think that this would lead into many more people making secondary builds, it would simply mean that there is at least some firepower. And that those guns are not just for starting fires and making some puff. If at least those big 152-155mm guns would get this advantage, it'd be great.

[anonym_8AYJrnybhu0v]

Forget about balance in this game, it's the AI that plays on data and maximizes profits for  the company.