Can they citadel you when angled ?

[GrazyC2]

Just a Question I was angled and the enemy shooting me took 10 K dmg of my ship while I was angled. Is that even possible ?

I was sailing the Iron Duke, fine ship but really a Fuso shot me while I was angled away and he took 10 K dmg first shot and second shot he took 5 K dmg from me.

This is frustrating to say the least if you angled kitting away from it and they take such a large peace of health from you.

I know this would happend broadside but angled... Also AP on the Iron Duke doesn't work I was in a brawling situation and I shot the bastard 3x times, one full salvo on his citadel, and two on his front turret and he literally didn't took any damage.

Like he used god mode or something lolzzz But to be serious is this an glitch or something  ?

[ColonelPete]

6 minutes ago, GrazyC2 said:

Just a Question I was angled and the enemy shooting me took 10 K dmg of my ship while I was angled. Is that even possible ?

I was sailing the Iron Duke, fine ship but really a Fuso shot me while I was angled away and he took 10 K dmg first shot and second shot he took 5 K dmg from me.

This is frustrating to say the least if you angled kitting away from it and they take such a large peace of health from you.

I know this would happend broadside but angled... Also AP on the Iron Duke doesn't work I was in a brawling situation and I shot the bastard 3x times, one full salvo on his citadel, and two on his front turret and he literally didn't took any damage.

Obviously. Otherwise it would not have happened.

He probably hit an unangled part of your superstructure. That can happen.

Do not shoot at the turrets. They are heavily armored. Otherwise switch to HE if the target BB is angled.

[GrazyC2]

4 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Obviously. Otherwise it would not have happened.

He probably hit an unangled part of your superstructure. That can happen.

Do not shoot at the turrets. They are heavily armored. Otherwise switch to HE if the target BB is angled.

Yeah typing error it was on the nose in front off the front turrets, but even then it should sustain some damage and it didn't. Maybe an server glitch

[ColonelPete]

Just now, GrazyC2 said:

Yeah typing error it was on the nose in front off the front turrets, but even then it should sustain some damage and it didn't. Maybe an server glitch

Probably not. Just take a look at the hit ribbons.

[RenamedUser_92906789]

9 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Do not shoot at the turrets.

Wellllllll......

Shoot the turrets if you want to knock therm out. But not with HE.... that wont work...

[Sunleader]

6 minutes ago, GrazyC2 said:

Just a Question I was angled and the enemy shooting me took 10 K dmg of my ship while I was angled. Is that even possible ?

I was sailing the Iron Duke, fine ship but really a Fuso shot me while I was angled away and he took 10 K dmg first shot and second shot he took 5 K dmg from me.

This is frustrating to say the least if you angled kitting away from it and they take such a large peace of health from you.

I know this would happend broadside but angled... Also AP on the Iron Duke doesn't work I was in a brawling situation and I shot the bastard 3x times, one full salvo on his citadel, and two on his front turret and he literally didn't took any damage.

Like he used god mode or something lolzzz But to be serious is this an glitch or something  ?

 

You can be Citadeled even if Angled.

Angling Drastically Increases your Armor. Making Bounces much more Likely and making Citadels much Harder.

However.

If the Enemy is Far enough away to Strike into your Deck Armor (Which as it is atop your Ship wont be angled regardless of your turning) or if his Penetration just outclasses your Armor far enough. Then it is still possible to Strike Citadels.

 

Now some things to be Noted :)

 

1.

10k and 5k are not likely Citadel Hits.

Just Normal Penetrations.

Salvos getting into your Citadel can easily take 15-30k and even more because from an Enemy BB a Single Shell getting into your Citadel is about 10k Damage. If you took a Salvo and only lost 10k Then it was likely 3 normal Penetrations which did not Reach your Citadel.

 

2.

Your Angle also Matters. In General.

On 45 Degree Your Armor is about 50% Thicker. On 70 Degrees your Armor is almost Impossible to Penetrate unless the Enemy has a very High Caliber or Special AP that Works against Angled Targets. (British Cruiser AP for example)

So if you were at 45 Degree Angle so you could still Shoot all your Guns. You might have Increased Armor. But its nowhere near enough to make you entirely Safe from High Damage Salvos.

 

3.

Your a British Battleship. Your AP has a Very Short Fuse.

This makes your Shell much less Likely to Overpenetrate Cruisers. Hence making it far easir for your Shells to Score Citadels on Light Armor Ships like Cruisers.

However. Against The Thick Armored and Wide Spaced Battleships this Short Fuse makes Citadels very unlikely. Because your Shells just Explode after the Main Armor Belt and before Reaching the Citadel.

 

Also note. British Battleships have Very Strong HE Shells. But very Weak AP Shells in General.

They have fairly low Penetration Power on their AP when Compared to other Nations Battleships.

In Exchange their HE is lethal with very High Damage.

 

4.

Also note. Different Ships have Different Armor.

You can View Armor for each Ship by Selecting it in the Techtree or the Armory etc.

And Displaying the Modules and Armor for it in the Port.

Some Ships like German Battleships for example. Have an Extremely Strong Armored Citadel that effectively has an entire extra layer of Armor that on top is Angled inside the Ship.

Making German Battleships extremely hard to Citadel.

 

 

[doerhoff_damian]

Check your Armor Layout.

Any Sort of Plating can be Overmatched by AP  if the Gun Caliber is at least 14,3 times as high as the Thickness of your Plating.

If the Gun can Overmatch the Armor, than the Armor will be Ignored.

The Iron Duke as a Tier 5 Ship has 19mm of Bow Armor.

19X14,3=271,7 That means any Gun with a Cliber of 272mm or Higher can just overmatch your Nose and get Full Pens and sometimes even Citadell hits.

Fuso has 354mm Guns so the AP can overmatch your Bow.

T6 BBs Ships have 26mm of Bow Armor.

26X14,3=371,8 That means Guns with a Caliber of 372mm or Higher can Overmatch that armor-

T10 BBs have 32mm of Bow Armor.

32X14,3=457,8. That means you Need 458mm or Bigger to Overmatch that Armor

[El2aZeR]

I'm gonna hazard a guess that you don't know what overmatch is.

Basically if a gun caliber is big enough or alternatively if the plating is thin enough it will start ignoring said armor. It is pretty much the norm that your ship is covered in such plating that allows guns to overmatch up until T8.

 

For more detailed info I'll direct you to "AP overmatch" section of the wiki page:

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_thresholds

 

[HaachamaShipping]

20 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Obviously. Otherwise it would not have happened.

He probably hit an unangled part of your superstructure. That can happen.

Do not shoot at the turrets. They are heavily armored. Otherwise switch to HE if the target BB is angled.

Fuso can overmatch Iron Duke's bow and stern even. Most T5 BBs overmatch each other, given the tier has 19 mm minimal hull plating. Only stuff like Pyotr Veliky with mostly reinforced plating have much less to worry.

[Verblonde]

Everyone else has covered off overmatch etc.

 

Vis-a-vis citadels: it's worth having a sniff around your ships' armour models once in a while, to get a sense of where the citadel actually is and if it's a funny shape.

 

For example, this is the front of Balti's citadel:

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

And this is Musashi (from a higher angle):

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

You'll note that Musashi's citadel is (sort of) hexagonal; this means it's potentially easier to citadel an angled Musashi (Yamato too) than a more typical ship of a similar sort, such as Georgia (from a similar angle):

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Pururut]

This is the reason why WoWS needs in game armor penetration calculator just like Warthunder. AP penetration is simply a matter of basic trigonometry. I will try to explain it basically without all those fancy numbers that usually cause much confusion in newcomers.

 

Before delving into the question, we need to understand basic shell types and how they work. HE ammo is essentially a thin casing filled to brim with explosive filler. You fire it, it travels to the target and detonates the second it contacts a surface. Based on the armor thickness the shell will either penetrate and do damage+ possibly start a fire or shatter and do nothing. So far so good. AP ammunition has one key difference; instead of exploding at surface, its purpose is to penetrate into the said surface and explode inside the ship; a delayed/timed HE shell if you may.

 

The other specialties of AP are as follows; effective armor, shell velocity, overmatch mechanics and fuse. If you have played World of Tanks you might be familiar with what is called sloped armor. If you are unfamiliar, please watch the video below. As you can see the more angled armor is be it through the way it is constructed or manually by angling it the thicker it becomes. HE shells don’t suffer from this for as I have pointed out in the previous paragraph, AP shells have to penetrate the armor whereas HE shells only have to contact, hence the difference.

 

Shell velocity plays a quintessential role in penetration capability of a shell. AP shells have their penetration capabilities at maximum the second they leave the barrel. The friction caused by air forces the shell to lose velocity over the course of time; the longer it takes the shell to travel the more velocity it bleeds hence loss of penetration over distance.

 

Prior to discussing fuse, we must touch briefly on one exception to angled armor. The angle through which the shell contacts the armor can result in a ricochet, penetration, non-penetration or overmatch. Whereas the first three are self-explanatory, overmatch is a special mechanic causing the diameter of a shell that is 14.3 time greater than the pure armor value of a surface (NOT effective) to automatically penetrate no matter how oblique the angle is. For example, Iron Duke only has 19mm of armor at its front and back. Overmatch rule states that any shell with that is 272mm and upwards count as overmatch. The reason behind Fuso dealing so much damage to your will be clear once we cover the last portion of AP shells; the fuse.

Remember my words about AP being a delayed/timed HE? The fuse is the timer of the shell; it is what makes AP detonate at the right place and at the right time. The timer is set but the fuse must contact armor thick enough for its activation. This is the reason why over penetrations happen when the AP hits superstructure of a battleship or the broadside of a destroyer; there is simply not enough armor for the fuse to prime and the shell as a result punches a hole through but doesn’t do anything else.

 

Having covered AP fuse and overpenetration, we can now move to penetration and citadels. As you may know a ship is covered in many layers of armor. Traditionally these are superstructure, deck, belt and citadel armor vertically. Horizontally it is fore, casemate and aft. Over short to mid ranges shells will pose a threat to your aft, fore, casemate and belt whereas deck is more important at long range.

 

To combine what we have learnt, lets imagine a scenario based on your experience. While you haven’t described the range of the engagement, I will assume it to be short to mid-range. A 356mm shell fired at a kiting Iron Duke will overmatch its 19mm aft armor. At this point AP shell fuse hasn’t activated as there wasn’t enough armor to do so. The shell continues to the second layer of armor which is 152mm casemate at a shallow angle. That is enough for the shell to BOTH penetrate and prime the fuse. After penetrating the casemate, the loss of velocity from penetrating multiple layers of armor combined with primed fuse detonates the shell before it reaches the citadel thus resulting in a penetration. Notice the words shallow angle. Had this engagement occurred at long range, Fusos 356mm shell would have still penetrated the 19mm aft deck armor but the nearly straight down angle (plunging fire) would have prevented it from traveling into the casemate armor and the shell would have passed through the aft bottom without priming itself, resulting in a overpenetration. A similar occurrence happens in battleship vs cruisers; even if BB shells overmatch the first layer there must be enough armor in the inner layers for the shell to both prime and detonate before it exists through the other side.

 

One can exploit underwater shots at short to mid ranges to prevent that from happening. Dunking shells into water by undershooting very slightly makes the shell lose plenty of velocity from contacting water but enough to travel the short distance to the citadel and detonate within.

 

A lot of different scenarios can be formulated but ultimately all of them boil down to shell velocity, angles, penetration mechanics and understanding your ships and others armor profiles. Personally, I think it is kind of silly for waterline over penetrations to not cause flooding but such is WoWS.

[HaachamaShipping]

11 hours ago, Verblonde said:

You'll note that Musashi's citadel is (sort of) hexagonal; this means it's potentially easier to citadel an angled Musashi (Yamato too) than a more typical ship of a similar sort, such as Georgia (from a similar angle):

People calling Yamato/Musashi/Shikishima citadel "hexagonal" seem to be people who heard that somewhere and just reiterate it without much further thought. Dunno, just seems that way. Because a simple counting exercise should reveal that (if you simplify it and disregard the three-dimensional nature of a citadel), it's an octagon, as it has eight vertices, not six.

 

Fun fact, if you don't do a horizontal cross-section but a vertical one, either along the length of the ship or across the ship, it'd still end up (roughly) octagonal.

[GrazyC2]

13 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

I'm gonna hazard a guess that you don't know what overmatch is.

Basically if a gun caliber is big enough or alternatively if the plating is thin enough it will start ignoring said armor. It is pretty much the norm that your ship is covered in such plating that allows guns to overmatch up until T8.

 

For more detailed info I'll direct you to "AP overmatch" section of the wiki page:

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_thresholds

 

Overmatch means to be larger in number, stronger, better, ect

[GrazyC2]

12 hours ago, Verblonde said:

Everyone else has covered off overmatch etc.

 

Vis-a-vis citadels: it's worth having a sniff around your ships' armour models once in a while, to get a sense of where the citadel actually is and if it's a funny shape.

 

For example, this is the front of Balti's citadel:

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

And this is Musashi (from a higher angle):

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

You'll note that Musashi's citadel is (sort of) hexagonal; this means it's potentially easier to citadel an angled Musashi (Yamato too) than a more typical ship of a similar sort, such as Georgia (from a similar angle):

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Fun play a game but first you have to dig true schematics to play it... sight

[GrazyC2]

Never mind I asked, want to play a game not calculate all the ships before I play a game. He jack hold your fire I need to measure first, really is this what the game has become to calculating shots pfff. Just want to have fun doing phew phew.

If I want to work I call my boss... 

[ColonelPete]

10 minutes ago, GrazyC2 said:

Never mind I asked, want to play a game not calculate all the ships before I play a game. He jack hold your fire I need to measure first, really is this what the game has become to calculating shots pfff.

No. Experienced players know this instinctivly.

Just know how to angle and evade fire. You cannot do more anyway.

[159Hunter]

Angling in most ships is very very easy.

Not shooting angled targets (most anyway) is a good call, if you see them turning.

 

Now that's not hard now is it?

[Pururut]

18 minutes ago, GrazyC2 said:

Never mind I asked, want to play a game not calculate all the ships before I play a game. He jack hold your fire I need to measure first, really is this what the game has become to calculating shots pfff. Just want to have fun doing phew phew.

If I want to work I call my boss... 

 I would suggest switching to mobile gaming or arcade games if reading two wiki pages and spending 5 minutes looking at a ships profile is too much effort. Popcap has a good collection of such titles. 

[Itwastuesday]

Some ships can be citadeled from the nose or the stern too, even in T10. 

[Beastofwar]

IRL long range arced plunging fire ( shells falling from the sky like bombs on the thin decks ) was one of the most dangerous things. Lighter armoured battlecruisers but Battleships also hastened to close the range untill that danger was over. The thick side armour was desigened to defeat flatter arced fire of "medium" ranges. How diffrent is this from WOWS gameplay.....

 

Yet in this game player prefer to stay in that plunging fire range. For that they are not nearly as punished as they should be. And ofcourse the tier dependend bow plating thickness is a design of the game. Bows did not contain anything important ( although there would be crew housed in it ) for survivability or warfare  IRL and were not even nesecary to keep the ship afloat. Sometimes in heavy storms a warship could lose it's bow.....and then just return to port with somewhat less speed. Penetrating bows making a ship lose hitpoitns is a game design.

[GarrusBrutus]

1 hour ago, GrazyC2 said:

Never mind I asked, want to play a game not calculate all the ships before I play a game. He jack hold your fire I need to measure first, really is this what the game has become to calculating shots pfff. Just want to have fun doing phew phew.

If I want to work I call my boss... 

You must be so fun to play monopoly with:

"I dOnT wAnT tO LeArN tHe RuLeS, I jUsT wAnT tO pLaY wItH mOnEy."

[Rautainen_Biisoni]

1 hour ago, GrazyC2 said:

Never mind I asked, want to play a game not calculate all the ships before I play a game. He jack hold your fire I need to measure first, really is this what the game has become to calculating shots pfff. Just want to have fun doing phew phew.

If I want to work I call my boss... 

Really bad attitude right there. You aren't supposed to learn everything in an instant. Lots of ships have different parameters and you won't remember them all instantly but you should check them out from time to time and you remember them. Having the attitude to learn these things will get you much further. If you don't want to learn you will forever spend time at the bottom of the scoreboard and get owned by experienced players who toke some time to learn.

 

You can find basic mechanics here. Read 5 minutes per day and you will be 100x smarter than average player in no time. Most players won't read one line of wiki to understand this game.

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/World_of_Warships

Check ships, overmatch mechanics, damage per minute, captain builds and the likes from here. Also understand penetration values of different guns. Again don't read everything in one day but come back to it when there are things you don't understand.

https://wowsft.com/ship

Watch tutorial videos like this about armor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQcutrneBJQ

 

Without the attitude to learn you will be at the bottom forever.

[Verblonde]

4 hours ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

people who heard that somewhere and just reiterate it without much further thought.

I tend to repeat the expression because it's simple and in widespread use, rather than because it's accurate (hence the 'sort of' in my post)...

 

3 hours ago, GrazyC2 said:

Fun play a game but first you have to dig true schematics to play it... sight

You don't have to in the slightest to start with; however, if you want to understand why something apparently weird is happening, it can be helpful.

 

If this stuff is a bit beyond you, don't worry about it: just take the approach of 'shoot angled stuff with HE, and broadside stuff with AP (and aim under the funnels)' and you'll probably be more effective than the bulk of the player base. You can start layering in the more complex/nuanced stuff later, when you've got some more battles under  your belt.

 

[Pow_tae_toe]

This thread shows why this game need a arcade mode and a realistic mode. Those of us that just want to shoot with big guns can go play arcade (not co-op) with less realistic rules and settings.

 

The same ships can then be used for playing a realistic game, where all the rules for balistic and such applies. 

 

That would remove all of us plebs and potatoes from the unicums realistic game.

[GrazyC2]

46 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

I tend to repeat the expression because it's simple and in widespread use, rather than because it's accurate (hence the 'sort of' in my post)...

 

You don't have to in the slightest to start with; however, if you want to understand why something apparently weird is happening, it can be helpful.

 

If this stuff is a bit beyond you, don't worry about it: just take the approach of 'shoot angled stuff with HE, and broadside stuff with AP (and aim under the funnels)' and you'll probably be more effective than the bulk of the player base. You can start layering in the more complex/nuanced stuff later, when you've got some more battles under  your belt.

 

I was already busy doing that, and not that I don't want to know stuff but when you download a game you do it to play and have fun not to go back at school again.

Mostly I play in the evening after being a whole they in a boring office doing stuff so the attitude is more like hey I want to have fun not do math.

I understand the need of knowing game rules but knowing every ship in the game to play it is a bit awkward I think. 

And to be honest I play this from 2015 not every day because I was a time away, for family and such. And yeah the game is changed from an pew pew simple game.

To almost an simulator where you have to calculate every move but don't have the time to think about stuff.