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SeaWolf7

How difficult is it to become a decent DD player ATM?

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After a long absence from the game (yet again) to preserve my sanity i wanted to look in to the class i had neglected that being the destroyer. Well aware of its importance in the game over so many years of playing, it never fails to surprise me that hardly anybody on your team feels the same Ie the importance of a DD on your team. The last week has been an eye opener as to why. literally no one supports a dd player any more and i keep hearing through posts on the forum that DD has become somewhat of a dead class.

 

I've tried playing co op. Its a totally unrealistic training ground for DD play and imo and actually teaches bad habits to carry into random battles.

I've tried playing low tiers, if mm will allow any more than bloody 3-5 players (after taking a ridiculous time in Que) at tiers 2-3 its a bit unrewarding (therefore you could argue people go up quicker than they should as a result)

Mid tiers i have mixed success some really good some bad. 

Tier 8 and up is just like chewing razer blades tbh and i cannot fathom Why would WG allow a class of ship so important to the integrity of the game at higher tiers to be literally shafted from all sides by countless cruisers nearly ALL it seems equipped with RADAR, (why?) Cv's that have supersonic aircraft as standard that just perma spot you all day long and no one supports you anyway because they are hiding behind an island shaking like a Sh"%!ng dog So whats the point?

So im not surprised that no one wants to play DD or learn to play it. 

 

Don't get me wrong im sure its 90% the guy behind the keyboard (ie me) but good DD play requires some effort from your team mates as well does it not? like covering me when i cap. (i always cover the DD when in a cruiser when he's trying to cap)

So what is wrong, in your opinion with DD play in general atm ? Do you feel it has been a neglected class? What could WG do to bring this class more interest and make it more playable at higher tiers.

What do I and others like me who want to actually be proficient at DD play need to do here? Because my enthusiasm for learning a new role in this game has been completely quashed and i fear this is my last hurah tbh.

 

 

 

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I think it's pretty hard, but it may just be that I am crap at destroyers.

 

Tiers 3-6 are just filled to the gills with seal clubbers. Literally the first thing I see with my stock DD, with my 3-point captain upon spawning is "Located". Also, 2 CVs per side make things impossible. Obviously, you should learn to play around CVs, but it's hard to do in a Klas Horn, for example.

 

So, what do you do? Advance to tier 6-8 as fast as possible. What happens next? You just blow up. A lot.

 

I half-enjoyed the French DDs and the Swedes, but I'll pass. I'd rather play other classes.

 

On another hand again, this may be a natural progression. I was utter crap at cruisers and destroyers, first I got better at battleships. Later, I started doing better in cruisers. Maybe destroyers are next, who knows (no, they're not).

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I cant comment on what you can improve as a dd player since i stooped playing dd's when they butcher the jpn line back at 2015-16 but il link a nice YT channel which has mostly dd commentary from alot of ships and i find it really informative and helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-CVV_QxU4CesZL5pvdJw4A/videos

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I don't really know how hard it is to learn the class now. I started playing when we had stealthfiring gunboat russians, stealth torp japanese, and a mixture of those americans. Those were some simpler times.

 

By now a lot of things have changed, most notably the introduction of radar, and several changes to the spotting rules. As I always played DDs a lot, I learned to adapt to the changes with time. Now they are all stacked against you right from the beginning. The learning curve is rather steep and it doesn't help that the DD lines by now are as diverse as the LGBQT movement.

 

I agree that co-op is not a good tool to learn how to play DDs. Bots are way to predictable and make no real  use of their consumables, which makes close range torp runs almost always successful. In a random battle you'd get blown out of the water twice before you launch your torps if you want to try the same.

 

As generic as it might sound ...

The best advice I can give is you is to keep playing and to learn from each mistake you make. Once you reach the top of the steep hill you'll feel powerful again and you will be able to have a favorable impact on battle results. If you already played the other classes to their strengths, you will also know their weaknesses. This might help you flatten the curve a bit.

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It is not wise to play DDs in the current meta, especially with the ru CAs just released. Not to mention CVs in every game. 

 

Usually, i‘d recommend waiting until the next line hits and things calm down, but that’ll be CVs and the new ru CAs have fairly decent AA, so they gonna stay for a while.

 

So, it’s either play them and suffer or play an different class. 

 

My way of dealing with this crap is also an alternative for everyone: instead of buying premium time and ships, I bought a few decent games on sale, which will give me fun and entertainment until  at least December. 

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Survive the first 5min and you already belong to the top 10% dd players.

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39 minutes ago, SeaWolf7 said:

After a long absence from the game (yet again) to preserve my sanity i wanted to look in to the class i had neglected that being the destroyer. Well aware of its importance in the game over so many years of playing, it never fails to surprise me that hardly anybody on your team feels the same Ie the importance of a DD on your team. The last week has been an eye opener as to why. literally no one supports a dd player any more and i keep hearing through posts on the forum that DD has become somewhat of a dead class.

Interesting what you consider to be dead...

image.thumb.png.4144acf318fd0678042982622278391f.png

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20200627/eu_week/average_class_u.html

40 minutes ago, SeaWolf7 said:
  1. So what is wrong, in your opinion with DD play in general atm ?
  2. Do you feel it has been a neglected class?
  3. What could WG do to bring this class more interest and make it more playable at higher tiers.
  4. What do I and others like me who want to actually be proficient at DD play need to do here?
  1. There is not really something wrong. It is just the time of the introduction of a new cruiser line that has radar. Take a look at the diagram above and take a guess when was the last time this happened...
  2. As a whole? No. But some lines or even individual ships need some rework.
  3. At the moment teams average 2.5 DD per match from Tier VII up. If the average went up to 3 players would complain about torpedo soup and at 4 the BB players would ready their pitchforks and storm the studio in St. Petersburg and ambush devs on the street. It is unlikely that WG would change the class signifcantly. There are some options to make spotting by air harder or even reduce the damage from planes on DD more.
  4. When you like DD play, stay at Tier V and VI and practice to get a feel for the flow of battle and then slowly increase the Tier. Until then the radar situation should be mitigated.
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First welcome back @SeaWolf7

 

I used to be DD main and I enjoyed the class very much. Being able to use my stealth and plan my runs was something I really loved. Playing around radar doesn't bother me as by now I know all the ships and their modules.

 

But then CVs came.

Yes I know they were here before, but in far lower numbers. They have completely destroyed DD roles as stealth boats. Now the planes come over you in 20 seconds forcing you to either back away from the caps or smoke up. Enemy team knows exactly where you are, so the element of surprise is lost. 

 

Since radar has become pretty standard, and CVs dominate spotting role... I have almost abandon the class. Now I only observe poor souls trying to cap / contest only to die moments later. Most of the games outcome is determined by what team can keep its DDs alive in the first few minutes.

 

Just a potato opinion here...

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Persistence and 14+ point captains.

Not every game has a carrier and not every game has radar.

Learn where the radar crusiers like to hide.

 

Basically become a Marine; adapt, improvise & overcome. Plus learn to 'embrace the suck'.........

 

High speed drive-by annihilations of BBs are fun and so rewarding after many, many games where you get sunk.....

 

And remember you are 'that annoying pest which everyone does their best to sink first'...:cap_cool:

 

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1 hour ago, SeaWolf7 said:

So what is wrong, in your opinion with DD play in general atm ? Do you feel it has been a neglected class? What could WG do to bring this class more interest and make it more playable at higher tiers.

What do I and others like me who want to actually be proficient at DD play need to do here?

Mediocre player (at best) view:

  • "CVs" is the glib answer to the first part, and largely because of spotting, rather than damage; radar is - IMO - manageable, although it certainly doesn't make life any easier.
  • I don't feel the class as a whole has been neglected (we got the Ikea line recently, for example), but some specific bits of it have been, most notably almost anything that relies heavily on stealth - the IJN top line in particular (although they were on WG's sh*tlist already - torp visibility nerfs etc..).
  • Personally, I feel that the class in general doesn't need anything to make it interesting, provided you like the 'high risk, high reward' play style; but some things do need fettling to make them fun/viable in the current meta.

So, what to do about it? Some suggestions (assuming starting from scratch, or close to):

  • Pick the first couple of lines to play carefully, and expect a steep learning curve. The US DDs are the classic first line - decent dakka, usable (short-ranged until T7) torps, long-lasting smoke, and tolerable stealth. Crucially, once they get DefAA, they can do marginally more against planes than just use harsh language.
  • I might be tempted to free xp to T5 (assuming you have enough xp available, and good enough captains); although we're usually sniffy about this sort of thing, I feel the impact of the T4 CV plague is such that this is not an entirely bad idea (although it's a trade off: T5 against T4 CVs is sometimes okay, depending on line; on the other hand, you are dropped straight into +2 MM, although DDs often uptier better than other classes).
  • Practice your anti-CV/anti-radar technique heavily at lower tiers, where you'll be punished less heavily (hopefully) if you mis-judge something. For the former, learn how to maximise your AA (including sector reinforcement and DefAA and how they interact), and when to leave it switched off.
  • Avoid the 'no smoke' lines, especially the French (no heal and lousy stealth), until you're comfortable with DD play.

Overall, DDs are still fun and interesting to play, but you have to pick your ships carefully, and the play style is different with the CV/radar heavy meta we have at the moment than it was in years past...

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36 minutes ago, nambr9 said:

First welcome back @SeaWolf7

 

But then CVs came.

They have completely destroyed DD roles as stealth boats. Now the planes come over you in 20 seconds forcing you to either back away from the caps or smoke up. Enemy team knows exactly where you are, so the element of surprise is lost. 

 

 

Thank you.

 

This in particular is one of the points i find the most odd. DD's rely on its stealth/concealment to be functional in the game but we have things now that totally cancel that out bearing in mind the speed of which aircraft can cover ground and on a design level  that's totally flawed as it renders that 1 class almost useless. Granted if no CV is present that's a different kettle of fish. But how often (%) does this occur?

 

 

37 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Interesting what you consider to be dead...

image.thumb.png.4144acf318fd0678042982622278391f.png

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20200627/eu_week/average_class_u.html

  1. There is not really something wrong. It is just the time of the introduction of a new cruiser line that has radar. Take a look at the diagram above and take a guess when was the last time this happened...
  2. As a whole? No. But some lines or even individual ships need some rework.
  3. At the moment teams average 2.5 DD per match from Tier VII up. If the average went up to 3 players would complain about torpedo soup and at 4 the BB players would ready their pitchforks and storm the studio in St. Petersburg and ambush devs on the street. It is unlikely that WG would change the class signifcantly. There are some options to make spotting by air harder or even reduce the damage from planes on DD more.
  4. When you like DD play, stay at Tier V and VI and practice to get a feel for the flow of battle and then slowly increase the Tier. Until then the radar situation should be mitigated.

Those two top lines are quite interesting. Total Opposite in some places so i see your point.

Hanging at V-VI seems like the smart thing to do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, SeaWolf7 said:

Granted if no CV is present that's a different kettle of fish. But how often (%) does this occur?

I can't give you a percentage, as I do not keep track, but the quota is surprisingly high.

My estimate would be around the 50 to 60 % range for games without a CV.

 

In lower tiers the chances to meet a CV is significantly higher. But unless you encounter an experienced sealclubber in one, they are also less of a threat.

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8 minutes ago, SeaWolf7 said:

This in particular is one of the points i find the most odd. DD's rely on its stealth/concealment to be functional in the game but we have things now that totally cancel that out bearing in mind the speed of which aircraft can cover ground and on a design level  that's totally flawed as it renders that 1 class almost useless.

And then new ship class will arrive that also denies DD concealment advantage. The best part will be, DDs will be expected to be a counter to upcoming submarines. "Counter" that at the moment have to overextend to drop depth charges and be proxy spotted, thus you can't just smoke yourself to disengage:cap_popcorn:

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1 hour ago, Bindolaf_Werebane said:

I think it's pretty hard, but it may just be that I am crap at destroyers.

 

Tiers 3-6 are just filled to the gills with seal clubbers. Literally the first thing I see with my stock DD, with my 3-point captain upon spawning is "Located". Also, 2 CVs per side make things impossible. Obviously, you should learn to play around CVs, but it's hard to do in a Klas Horn, for example.

 

So, what do you do? Advance to tier 6-8 as fast as possible. What happens next? You just blow up. A lot.

 

I half-enjoyed the French DDs and the Swedes, but I'll pass. I'd rather play other classes.

 

On another hand again, this may be a natural progression. I was utter crap at cruisers and destroyers, first I got better at battleships. Later, I started doing better in cruisers. Maybe destroyers are next, who knows (no, they're not).

^^^^This^^^^

 

Although it has to be said my RL mate who is a total newbie, is better than me in DD's, and that would you believe is even with me teaching  him my very very limited knowledge, so something must have gone right:Smile_veryhappy:

 

On a serious note I do not know that answer, watch a lot of how to vids on the tube I guess, I do and still perform badly most of the time, I admit I suck, but you know, that needs for speed just sometimes overwhelms you.

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1 hour ago, Inappropriate_noob said:

that needs for speed just sometimes overwhelms you.

And when it does, reach for a fully tricked-out French DD - going flat-out, things like Marceau, and the T8s, look like they're power-sliding when turning hard - Tokyo Drift stylee.

 

You (well, *I*) may well get blown up, but you'll look mighty fine doing it!

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@SeaWolf7 DDs are not easy but they also not rocket science. The main rule I go by is never risk your ship. It's not worth dying for a cap, it's not worth dying to sit in a smoke and do 10k more dmg on some BB

, it's not worth dying to spot an enemy DD just because someone on your team sitting 15km behind you is nervous about it etc.

 

Feel free to add me in game and I am more than happy to division with you at any tier and show you the ropes. I am not the best DD player but without any false modesty, I am pretty damn good and I love to share the knowledge.

 

Good luck!

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DD gameplay can still be a lot of fun but it's certainly not forgiving I enjoy it all the same though. 

 

I admit im bias but I would suggest using the British DDs to learn on as they have hydro and lots of short duration smoke and in higher tiers also a heal. These come in very handy to help escape if under attack or hide if you get the unwelcome attention of CVs. Also the Brits can be used to stealth torp but also happily gunboat so the utility comes in handy. 

 

DD gameplay does require a fair bit of caution certainly at the beginning of a battle, try to spot caps/ flanks for your team let the team do the damage near the start (also take the damage). The longer you stay alive one you make the enemy second guess where you are, two you are way more dangerous as the battle progresses. 

 

Mid tier battles are a good place to learn you meet hydro and CVs are reasonably common but not as overwhelmingly present as in low tier games. If possible division up with a friend in a light cruiser it's a huge help to have that reliable fire support if you bump into an enemy DD.

 

Dealing with radar isn't too hard once you know where the radar ships are it's for that reason I advise against charging into caps but rather focus on spotting in the very start then just pray your BBs will bother to shoot at them (never hurts to try calling it as a target). Speaking from personal experience don't take silly risks smart enemy's love nothing more than to focus you, I get too impatient and try to force a situation and it's usually those times I get punished hard. 

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The only thing I learned about dds that still works is... don't die early. There is a specific time interval when the CV is fresh and the map open, if you survive that, then I and probably most other CV captains will turn their attention on the things unfolding on the map more over lose time searching for you. 

(DDs are first class I played and learned game, had an absolute horrible time in them but I still love them to bits_ also first class I abandoned when the CVs arrived and jumped there for the most part. Still when I want to have a fun game, I will take Kita or shino for a ride. You can't beat that thrill :D )

So don't die early... it works more than anything else. Once you get your bearings and got your plan thought out, you are the most dangerous ship on the map. Yes the CV can still kill you, outspot you, but later in the game he'll have to do all that himself and if the battle isn't going well that might not happen. For me DDs are at an extreme disadvantage at the start of games mostly. Rocket planes, first to get spotted, radar, every loaded gun on the enemy team locked on you. Survive or avoid that and then even good CVs will have trouble dealing with you. Especially if you pull them away from the major action. You are small, low hp target when other finer and more dangerous stuff are moving on the map. It is a difficult decision and I've seen many CVs give up on the DD after a while to focus elsewhere. A fatal mistake.

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Basically, if there is a CV in the game dont go rushing in to cap, u will die.. 

Turn your AA off until attacked (dont forget to turn off again when he has gone away if you are still alive)

Learn which cruisers have radar and their ranges and cooldowns and try to play around the radars

 

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8 hours ago, SeaWolf7 said:

After a long absence from the game (yet again) to preserve my sanity i wanted to look in to the class i had neglected that being the destroyer. Well aware of its importance in the game over so many years of playing, it never fails to surprise me that hardly anybody on your team feels the same Ie the importance of a DD on your team. The last week has been an eye opener as to why. literally no one supports a dd player any more and i keep hearing through posts on the forum that DD has become somewhat of a dead class.

 

I've tried playing co op. Its a totally unrealistic training ground for DD play and imo and actually teaches bad habits to carry into random battles.

I've tried playing low tiers, if mm will allow any more than bloody 3-5 players (after taking a ridiculous time in Que) at tiers 2-3 its a bit unrewarding (therefore you could argue people go up quicker than they should as a result)

Mid tiers i have mixed success some really good some bad. 

Tier 8 and up is just like chewing razer blades tbh and i cannot fathom Why would WG allow a class of ship so important to the integrity of the game at higher tiers to be literally shafted from all sides by countless cruisers nearly ALL it seems equipped with RADAR, (why?) Cv's that have supersonic aircraft as standard that just perma spot you all day long and no one supports you anyway because they are hiding behind an island shaking like a Sh"%!ng dog So whats the point?

So im not surprised that no one wants to play DD or learn to play it. 

 

Don't get me wrong im sure its 90% the guy behind the keyboard (ie me) but good DD play requires some effort from your team mates as well does it not? like covering me when i cap. (i always cover the DD when in a cruiser when he's trying to cap)

So what is wrong, in your opinion with DD play in general atm ? Do you feel it has been a neglected class? What could WG do to bring this class more interest and make it more playable at higher tiers.

What do I and others like me who want to actually be proficient at DD play need to do here? Because my enthusiasm for learning a new role in this game has been completely quashed and i fear this is my last hurah tbh.

 

 

 

 

If my memory is good you are a cruiser main, a RNCL main to be more exact, and if i stretch myself, i'll  go on a limb to say your favourite ship was Fiji..... 

From a cruiser main to another

Poor choice of class, it will be your last hurrah, a very short and quiet one.

It's easier to kill one than to survive in one, or to protect one

if you come from a break, i only hope that you have a relaxed posture and opened minded one, because you will need it, especially if you go to be a dd player.

If you want to play dds, stay at t6 the most, at least for now.

There are fewer and fewer dds players in every mode now, dd mains are going for other classes, and that affects other classes too.

 

 

 

 

 

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Gunboat DDs have it a lot easier than torpedo boats these days. Depending on your preferred play style you can shoot from smoke (US and UK), shoot while weaving and dodging at top speed (French and Russian) or a bit of both depending on the build (Akizuki, Kitakaze, Harugumo).

 

It's almost never a good idea to rush into the cap with speed boost at the start of the battle, better thin out the enemy lines and make BBs turn away (just set a fire, most chickens do the chicken thing). Once the area is safe for your teammates to come closer and support you, you can cap. DDs have a high influence on the battle outcome due to capping and spotting potential, learn how to use that correctly and you will be fine. Also, try your best to hinder your enemy counterpart from achieving these goals. Whenever you spot a high priority target (DD, radar cruiser, low HP target) mark it with F3, it really helps with focus fire.

 

Knowledge is a life saver. If you know the detection mechanics, radar, hydro, planes & AA down to a T you will never have to guess if you can go dark when you stop shooting. Experience is an important factor to become more effective and influential in the battle. The more experience you have the better are your predictions for your enemies' next move. That's why it is important to play all classes at least to mid-tier so you know what they can and can't do and where they like to go.

 

It may seem like an unforgiving class to play with all the dangers that kill you immediately when you make a small mistake. However, this excitement and the importance of your decisions for the battle outcome are responsible for the joy I feel when playing DDs successfully.

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DDs are a difficult class to learn to play well. I am a DD main, my most played ship is Lightning. I think some people exaggerate the dangers.

CV: never had an issue with. May cost me a few thousand HP, but rarely is a real danger. Accept that you may have to smoke up at his first pass, and do so in time (planes at 5 km). When planes gone, move out of your smoke and proceed.

Radar: I had a tough time a couple of weeks ago with the flood of Rusky balans cruisers, but got used to that now.

It really also depends on your playing style. I play for reconnaissance, cap contest and killing enemy DDs. And of course putting torps into enemy BaBBies. What made the difference in WR for me was that I learned to accept that playing solo in a DD costs just too much HP, so you die too much. So I have learned to involve my cruisers in chat and make sure at least 1 ship is supporting me when I try to make a move. Distance to the nearest teammate is key, as is being exposed without a decent exit possibility.

I would choose a good generalist DD to practice in, with low detectability (6 km or less), good guns and decent torps. You need at least a 10 point Captain, 14 points is better. Avoid T10 as all the issues multiply at that tier. Watch carefully for that team of glue sniffers, cause then you need to have a different approach altogether.

Good luck. DDs are still my favourite class.

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Guys thank you for all the pointers and tips. There is a wealth of knowledge in all these posts that i will attempt to put into action...

 

12 hours ago, _Teob_ said:

@SeaWolf7 DDs are not easy but they also not rocket science. The main rule I go by is never risk your ship. It's not worth dying for a cap, it's not worth dying to sit in a smoke and do 10k more dmg on some BB

, it's not worth dying to spot an enemy DD just because someone on your team sitting 15km behind you is nervous about it etc.

 

Feel free to add me in game and I am more than happy to division with you at any tier and show you the ropes. I am not the best DD player but without any false modesty, I am pretty damn good and I love to share the knowledge.

 

Good luck!

@_Teob_ Thank you for the offer i may well take you up on that....

 

 

10 hours ago, Ronchabale said:

Basically, if there is a CV in the game dont go rushing in to cap, u will die.. 

Turn your AA off until attacked (dont forget to turn off again when he has gone away if you are still alive)

Learn which cruisers have radar and their ranges and cooldowns and try to play around the radars

 

This i have found to be a very true. Rushing in to cap first just seems like the quickest way to die..

Turning AA on /off is a remarkably good tactic as some planes manage to pass very close 2=3k or so without spotting you...always fun to see the Enemy CV searching in frustration 

Learning radar is easer said than done. So many diffrent active duration's times cool downs and ranges to assign to memory. think i will have to write them down and have them for reference close by.

 

As for what lines, The japanese is looking like the  most forgiving with good torp ranges and concealment.

I have a few British DD's left over from when they first came out so will try to resurrect that line and play from V.

 

Will post some results on this subject Good and bad perhaps with some explanations as to why they were good/bad

 

Again thank you for all the advise so far.

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, SeaWolf7 said:

Learning radar is easer said than done. So many diffrent active duration's times cool downs and ranges to assign to memory. think i will have to write them down and have them for reference close by.

If you ignore the potential british radar and the odd other ship there are two simple sets of data to remember:

  • Russian radar = 12 km range, short duration
  • US radar = 10 km range, long duration
  • Cool 2

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Players
2,213 posts
22,942 battles
2 hours ago, SeaWolf7 said:

Will post some results on this subject Good and bad perhaps with some explanations as to why they were good/bad

Post replays from typical battles along with the results and we can give you specific tips. You can find them in the game directory in the 'replays' folder.

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