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Rautainen_Biisoni

Add repair party to mid tier DD and Cruisers to make them more attractive?

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I was playing ranked and while waiting for a game you could not miss the 200-300 BBs in the queue while only 3-10 in other classes. Shows how attractive other classes are. I only played DD and secondary BB.

BBs have been the most favorite class of the playerbase perhaps because of their survivability and less experienced players actually get to play the game longer instead of detonating.

Newbies tend to be too eager or misplay with DDs and CL/CA. They eat citadels and suddenly playing BB must seem to be much more enjoyable option. 

Cruisers and DDs are much more difficult to master and they often bare the brunt of enemy fire since most BB players camp in the rear sniping and not carrying their weight. BB players never ever push.

I remember playing low tier cruisers back in the early days and I was always feeling happy to advance from T4-T7 cruisers to more armored CAs with more range. Its nice to not eat citadels all the time.

 

BBs are much more forgiving in their gameplay while DDs and Cruisers are punished heavily with mistake and they often have to be the first line of offense/defense. Tanking and spotting gives no rewards and once you eat a few citadels and damage you kinda have to sit in the rear for the rest of the round. I bet this isn't very attractive gameplay and players switch to BB class.

 

Some T8-T10 DDs also suffer from powercreep. Gearing eats tons of damage, YY is quite rare and weak and Z52 can't handle gun fights so well. None of these have heals while Grozo, Daring, Khaba, Halland have access to heals and thus much more extra health. Are the ones that have heal unbalanced? I don't think so but more forgiving though and thus more enjoyable. You can pick a fight and retreat to heal to fight again. Game isn't over once you survive sudden radar and shells from 3-4 ships. You get to play again after healing up.

 

T8 Cruisers suffer also suffer from lack of range in T9-T10 games. New players end up in the front and eat damage they are unable to heal while sitting in the rear with your baBBies is not very attractive either.

 

DDs and cruisers shouldn't be given the same heals as everybody else to retain their uniqueness. They could have 20-40% weaker heals and perhaps 2x-3x longer cooldown. Or many heals but 70% weaker and long cooldowns. Lots of options here. IMO heals don't have to be standard. You could easily adjust the quantity of heals, their effectiveness and cooldown to balance ships.

Having heals IMO gives a morale and confidence boost and you don't have to hide the rest of the round because unlucky torp or focus fire that depleted your HP. 

 

What are your thoughts? Would low-mid tiers be more attractive with heals?

 

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I support it, in this CV infested times one doesnt even have to misplay its enough to be spotted by a plane while still on the way to the starting position and blap - one BB salvo takes one out of the further fight as you are suddenly half hp and in horrible disadvantage...

 

The only really good thing on most RN CAs is that they have that heal

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2 minutes ago, Rautainen_Biisoni said:

What are your thoughts? Would low-mid tiers be more attractive with heals?

Ofcourse, but it would also make them OP when up against lower tiers. Imagine playing a T4 DD without a heal against a T5 DD with heal... You just moved the "problem" down a few tiers. 

So the best thing to do would be to give everyone heals? Wouldn't be too bad if it meant longer matches on average. But that would also mean that players get more xp credits per match, which means they're less inclined to pay for premiums/premium time. 

So does it benefit wargaming financially? Probably not. 

 

I think the balance is done pretty good. Take T8 cruisers for example. They have to operate on a scale from T6 to T10. That is a very wide range to balance them in. Now in T8 ranked they do not seem popular but does that mean they're in need of a buff for randoms as well? I don't think so. Battleships are by far the most popular choice in ranked sprint because the format favors bbs due to small teams (you don't get burned down by 12 enemies like in randoms), the perceived easyness to play the class and the survivability of the class.

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23 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Ofcourse, but it would also make them OP when up against lower tiers. Imagine playing a T4 DD without a heal against a T5 DD with heal... You just moved the "problem" down a few tiers. 

So the best thing to do would be to give everyone heals? Wouldn't be too bad if it meant longer matches on average. But that would also mean that players get more xp credits per match, which means they're less inclined to pay for premiums/premium time. 

So does it benefit wargaming financially? Probably not. 

 

I think the balance is done pretty good. Take T8 cruisers for example. They have to operate on a scale from T6 to T10. That is a very wide range to balance them in. Now in T8 ranked they do not seem popular but does that mean they're in need of a buff for randoms as well? I don't think so. Battleships are by far the most popular choice in ranked sprint because the format favors bbs due to small teams (you don't get burned down by 12 enemies like in randoms), the perceived easyness to play the class and the survivability of the class.

You are correct with the T1-T5 part. I don't mind heals in those tiers. I left that part out because I very rarely play those tiers so "lack of experience".

I don't think you have to worry about economics so much but balance should always be observed. New players who haven't even reached T6 already spend tons of real money in the game buying all ships without a though. WG is happy. Think about if they bought cruisers and DDs as well. :cap_wander_2:

 

T8 cruisers might be balanced for us veterans but new comers tend to switch to BBs and 4/5 BBs in every match sadly populate the bottom of the scoreboard. I personally rarely play T1-T8 cruisers because playing aggressive in a DD or BB is more enjoyable and effective. Having heals make the games more enjoyable IMO.

 

I'm not talking only about ranked. It was just a "sad" observation and talking with div mates they didn't pick them either because of lack of carry power. An aggressive BB can put cruisers out of action easily when they don't have heals or armor and you do. HE spam is much less indeed. Good points anyways. 

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You get a HEAL ! You get a HEAL ! You get a HEAL !

 

EVERYBODY GETS A HEAL !!!!

 

erm sorry no ... the q in ranked is no indication for any changed in this regard. Go to T4/5 queues and you'll see more CVs than everybody else ... does that mean everybody should get DFAA ?

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1 hour ago, Rautainen_Biisoni said:

T8 cruisers might be balanced for us veterans but new comers tend to switch to BBs and 4/5 BBs in every match sadly populate the bottom of the scoreboard.

You're absolutely right. And for them a heal on Cruisers/Destroyers in those tiers might prove very useful. Except those players should learn a lesson in those tiers, namely PATIENCE. That is the crux of playing cruisers. Being able to exercise patience: Playing safe enough to keep your hitpoints but aggressive enough to be able to be useful. New players often either die too soon or stay back too far in especially Cruisers, but to a certain degree also in Destroyers.

1 hour ago, Rautainen_Biisoni said:

Having heals make the games more enjoyable IMO.

It does indeed. That is also part of the reason why I mostly play high tiers. Cruisers are my main class but playing them at lower tiers is just.......yikes. F. e. Started the RU CA line again (moskva reset) and playing the Budyonny is so boring. You litteraly have to stay at max range because you cannot tank ANYTHING. Your armor is almost non existent. So there a heal, albeit a small one, would be very welcome.

 

1 hour ago, Rautainen_Biisoni said:

I'm not talking only about ranked. It was just a "sad" observation and talking with div mates they didn't pick them either because of lack of carry power. An aggressive BB can put cruisers out of action easily when they don't have heals or armor and you do. HE spam is much less indeed. Good points anyways. 

Yeah, cruisers need time to be able to do their dmg. Battleships can brute force their dmg with a well timed push en good aim. But that doesnt really change at TX, where cruisers have heals as well. A BB can still oneshot you if you misplay in a CA/DD. Funny enough, the 'Arms Race' mode made battleships arguably even harder to kill with small calibre gun dpm.

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At first I thought it was a good idea, but upstairs neighbors made a good case against it => just because it will extend balancing issues
I played  British cruisers and the heal is not a game changer for below average players like me. You get blapped anyway.

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3 hours ago, Rautainen_Biisoni said:

What are your thoughts? Would low-mid tiers be more attractive with heals?

No, because why, in WG eyes, players would want to stay at midtiers when they can skip them with Free Exp and then play tier 9+ ships, preferably premium ones:cap_tea:

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3 hours ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Ofcourse, but it would also make them OP when up against lower tiers. Imagine playing a T4 DD without a heal against a T5 DD with heal... You just moved the "problem" down a few tiers. 

So the best thing to do would be to give everyone heals? Wouldn't be too bad if it meant longer matches on average. But that would also mean that players get more xp credits per match, which means they're less inclined to pay for premiums/premium time. 

So does it benefit wargaming financially? Probably not. 

 

I think the balance is done pretty good. Take T8 cruisers for example. They have to operate on a scale from T6 to T10. That is a very wide range to balance them in. Now in T8 ranked they do not seem popular but does that mean they're in need of a buff for randoms as well? I don't think so. Battleships are by far the most popular choice in ranked sprint because the format favors bbs due to small teams (you don't get burned down by 12 enemies like in randoms), the perceived easyness to play the class and the survivability of the class.

On the other hand, guys in BB can fix ,repair stuff (heal) while guys in cruisers at too dumb to do the same thing? :D

 

On topic, in a BB with a few heals you can fix your errors of bad judgment in game and stay longer, while cruiser, who is even more difficult to play, one wrong taken salvo from a BB will get you back to port. DDs at least have low detect, smoke and stuff, while lets say a tier 8 cruiser is really getting to  be played by exp players.

 

From my perspective I didnt mind playing cruisers in this ranked sprint but I really could not make a huge impact (carry) the game with it, if I am left against BBs, was playing Baltimore, which is really good with radar, but you have to get close and personal and you dont have smoke, a bit of heal, a really small heal would be nice. Can you really say what with small heal they would be really OP?

So I finished my sprint with a DD.

 

EDIT: only cruiser with heal not DD

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Adding heal to lower tier DD and CA would break the game balance even more than it can be at the moment.

 

Not having  heal means that players learn how to play without making too many mistakes in-game.

 

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3 hours ago, Rautainen_Biisoni said:

DDs and cruisers shouldn't be given the same heals as everybody else to retain their uniqueness. They could have 20-40% weaker heals and perhaps 2x-3x longer cooldown. Or many heals but 70% weaker and long cooldowns. Lots of options here. IMO heals don't have to be standard. You could easily adjust the quantity of heals, their effectiveness and cooldown to balance ships.

 

Ive been saying the same for some time now aswell, because the imbalance between heal/no-heal ships gets more evident in other modes like CBs or Clanbrawl (Kiev season anyone). For the different heals id like to add, you could just have heals, which only work for certain types of damage. F.e. fire for non-heal Cruisers is always something you have to think about, if you DCP or not. Its permanent damage, while the T9 Cruiser can heal a lot of it back, even 50% of your HE alpha.

And now that we only have premium consumables, you can even lower the amount of heals to 2 (1 + 1 with SI).

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4 minutes ago, BrusilovX said:

Adding heal to lower tier DD and CA would break the game balance even more than it can be at the moment.

 

Not having  heal means that players learn how to play without making too many mistakes in-game.

 

So as a BB you are allowed to make mistakes? BBs are user noob friendly?

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3 minutes ago, Wulf_Ace said:

So as a BB you are allowed to make mistakes? BBs are user noob friendly?

A BB is supposed to be a meat shield for the rest of the team.  It has armour and a usually large health pool (and quite often a heal) to help it undertake that function.

 

BBs are the most user friendly class in WoWS.   Is that news to you?

 

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4 minutes ago, BrusilovX said:

BBs are the most user friendly class in WoWS.  

 

And thats pretty much the problem with it. Because of their inability or unwillingness to play/learn other classes, they feel that they are OP. DDs are OP because of stealth and torps, Cruisers are OP because of HE. If they would have learnt to play them, they wouldnt think that. And as a result, they also never learnt to play BBs properly.

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5 minutes ago, BrusilovX said:

A BB is supposed to be a meat shield for the rest of the team.  It has armour and a usually large health pool (and quite often a heal) to help it undertake that function.

 

BBs are the most user friendly class in WoWS.   Is that news to you?

 

and beacouse of that in ranked sprint we get that what we have now, 250 BBs, 3-4 cruisers, 10 DDs in queue. 

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I find most of the time when I play cruisers, I get sunk by a single salvo from a battleship that blows my citadel into tiny pieces, rather than from chip damage that could be healed. 

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23 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

And thats pretty much the problem with it. Because of their inability or unwillingness to play/learn other classes, they feel that they are OP. DDs are OP because of stealth and torps, Cruisers are OP because of HE. If they would have learnt to play them, they wouldnt think that. And as a result, they also never learnt to play BBs properly.

Well, the last time I played rank (Over six months ago) I was in a DD trying to cap and our BBs were hiding behind islands and refused to move out of them - so they could not shoot at what I'd spotted let alone the ships that were getting into the cap.  Our CAs were doing the same.

 

I've seen that behaviour in randoms as well.

 

I'e seen many screens of the mini-map that show such play is a regular occurrence.

 

The other day in a no CV or DD game I was in my Bayard on North - it was a TIX game so I decided to go behind an island and shoot from there (it was the flank with the 'keep left' signs).   A Tirpitz spawned on the same flank as I did but sailed behind an even bigger island and started to ping me on the map.  They sailed up behind the even larger island near the cap and pinged me a number of times and indicated that I should cap - the enemy TIX BB was on our flank as well so that would not work out well for me.

 

One the flank was cleared the enemy had pushed through on the other flank and were capping - so the Tirpitz proceeded towards  the enemy cap (along with out TIX BB).

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Wulf_Ace said:

and beacouse of that in ranked sprint we get that what we have now, 250 BBs, 3-4 cruisers, 10 DDs in queue. 

That just show that BBs are the easiest class to play.

 

So, maybe WG should nerf BBs so their numbers fall?  or just educate the playerbase.

 

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3 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

You get a HEAL ! You get a HEAL ! You get a HEAL !

 

EVERYBODY GETS A HEAL !!!!

 

erm sorry no ... the q in ranked is no indication for any changed in this regard. Go to T4/5 queues and you'll see more CVs than everybody else ... does that mean everybody should get DFAA ?

Your most played DD's all have heals, does that enjoyment come from having a heal or is it something else? My 2 cents is on the heals that help with that enjoyment.

 

It would be interesting to see some form of durability increase to tier 8 in particular, as has been said that seems to be the tier that suffers most. I remember in the last tier 8 ranked season where tier 8 cruiser especially just could not carry as effectively because they could not survive for long enough to have much of an impact (in clan wars this was not so bad because of the overall better coordination, IMO).

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48 minutes ago, BrusilovX said:

Adding heal to lower tier DD and CA would break the game balance even more than it can be at the moment.

 

Leaving the DDs aside: how would a Karlsruhe with a heal break the game balance? A ship, that takes 2 citas from a BB and is dead? Did you do the math, how much a heal on a low tier cruiser would, under ideal circumstances, replenish? Maybe do that, look at the health pool and the AP damage of a BB cita at those tiers and rethink your position.

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Using one particular game mode as evidence that a particular class is weak and therefore needs buffing is a flawed argument.

 

DD's are a powerful class in other game modes where they can use their concealment to contest areas of the map and move into positions to torpedo or dakka the enemy.

 

Its a high risk, high reward class and can dictate the game if played well.

 

Current ranked sprint uses smaller maps, CV,s and a lower number of players per team, making it easier to focus on a single dd player. Previous ranked sprint seasons using armed race the class was very effective and used a lot. Similarly Venezia is called out as OP because of the last full ranked season, but seasons before that it was hardly used or talked about.

 

If this season were another arms race and cvs weren't allowed, do you think there would be more or less dd's queuing up?

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1 minute ago, Commander_Ericson said:

Venezia is called out as OP because of the last full ranked season, but seasons before that it was hardly used or talked about. 

 

Might be, because Venezia didnt exist before, dont you think?

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1 minute ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Leaving the DDs aside: how would a Karlsruhe with a heal break the game balance? A ship, that takes 2 citas from a BB and is dead? Did you do the math, how much a heal on a low tier cruiser would, under ideal circumstances, replenish? Maybe do that, look at the health pool and the AP damage of a BB cita at those tiers and rethink your position.

When everyone has super powers, no one is super anymore.

 

Making bad mistakes in positioning will get you killed, whether you have a heal or not. Low tier bb's have shotgun accuracy and miss a lot at long ranges. Angling your ship to their fire also means there's even less chance of the bb's shells hitting you. Probably best to learn these things now before getting to tier 10 and wondering why you're always getting dev striked by the enemy bb less than 10km away.

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5 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Might be, because Venezia didnt exist before, dont you think?

Except it did

 

Had they not taken the sledgehammer to Henri you would of probably still seen a lot of them along with Stalingrads

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