Jump to content
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
Silvercat18

CV Plane Repair - Regenerate aircraft over time

28 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

[-5D4-]
[-5D4-]
Beta Tester
191 posts
2,721 battles

Carriers should not run out of planes.

 

With the current situation of "carrier balance", we are now seeing IJN carriers who have lost everything in the first five minutes of play and American carriers who have nothing to do because their fighters have no real function other than to cause that situation to happen. The end result is you get people stuck playing the game who are effectively trapped for the next ten or more minutes in a ship that takes no further part in the action. This is made especially bad in that carriers are often the last vessels standing and we are now getting situations where the end of games is seeing ships that cant actually contribute towards the victory....except by dieing and thus they run away.

 

My proposal to fix this is that carriers should slowly regenerate their supply of planes over time. This would reflect reality as lone planes limp back from the fight and are patched up, to a state where they can be returned to the battle once again. There would also be planes that return in an un-repairable state but whose parts can be scavenged to fix their comrades. Being "dead" doesn't not necessarily mean being blown to bits, it would often mean coming back in a state where they are "out of the fight", but that doesn't mean such a return is useless.

 

We would still get the situation where a carrier can run out of planes, but this time, if the carrier can stay alive for a while, it would be able to get back in the fight, even if it was in a limited way. This would be equivalent of another class being heavily damaged but still being able to fight if the enemy was not to finish it off ( a common occurrence at the end of games).

 

It even opens up the potential for more captain skills, with a focus on plane repair times. As it is, the carrier skills are limited and one simply magically adds a plane to all the squadrons - for reasons. There are a lot of crew dedicated to keeping those birds in the air, but at the moment, their skill, numbers and achievements are not reflected in the actions of the ship....which is a missed opportunity, especially as repair could be used as a way to differentiate ships nationally (maybe the german vessels could be good at patching planes up, for example).

 

g17425.jpg

 

This would be good for the game and could do with being put in place, perhaps as a mirror the ammunition system that will be brought into play for other vessels in the near future. All thoughts welcome!

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
512 posts
671 battles

Sorry but I have to disagree. What's to stop someone suicide rushing all their torp bombers after the enemy CVs only to lose them all, wait for them all to regenerate and then doing the same thing. It would cause players to be less cautious as they'd get back everything they lost, causing them to be reckless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
6 posts
441 battles

I think it is worth a consideration but I agree it could make people more reckless. It could have a long repair time but than it would just be meaningless right? Maybe if you could repair limited amount of planes or max one plane per launch ( send a group that looses 2 planes you can repair one, if it doesn't lose any you can't repair any)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[-5D4-]
[-5D4-]
Beta Tester
191 posts
2,721 battles

Sorry but I have to disagree. What's to stop someone suicide rushing all their torp bombers after the enemy CVs only to lose them all, wait for them all to regenerate and then doing the same thing. It would cause players to be less cautious as they'd get back everything they lost, causing them to be reckless.

 

It need not be a fast process - my aim is to let a carrier get one active squadron again rather than simply sailing around for ten minutes doing nothing. As to being reckless, currently the attrition from a simple attack is enough for planes to be entirely exhausted very quickly. A single enemy fighter can destroy three Japanese dive bombers in under six seconds.....that's enough to completely exhaust the reserves and can take place in the first three minutes of gamplay.

 

My alternative suggestion is to allow carrier captains a button that lets them quit and be replaced by an AI captain, because staring at a monitor for ten minutes is not fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Weekend Tester
109 posts
836 battles

And BB  should have unlimited repair team with full efficiency every time and not decreasing one ? CA have constant airwatch and DD constant smoke screen..   ?

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[RONIN]
[RONIN]
Beta Tester
2,682 posts
5,569 battles

Depends how fast they regenerate, how many regenerate. I'm not oppossed to them repairing enough for say a half squadron. 

As in all your planes die. Then X amount of time later, you get a half strength wing back. Enough that you can do stuff, but at a penalty (because you've had all your planes shot down).

I also wouldn't be oppossed to it being a tier 3 captain skill, since you have to take one of those to get to the rank 4/5 ones, and currently there's only 1 carriers can use, and even thats not massively useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
2,271 posts
1,040 battles

Active skill with 4 charges and 4 minutes cooldown to assemble X amount of random planes from spare parts and add them to the reserve. Let's say 3 per skill activation (with the captain's skill or 2 without) so 12 for the whole (long) battle duration. 2 USN or 3 IJN squadrons bonus - sounds fair, that's 1 more attack it won't make the CVs reckless with increased maintenance time if the squadron was destroyed and new one is forming.

  • Cool 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
512 posts
671 battles

And BB  should have unlimited repair team with full efficiency every time and not decreasing one ? CA have constant airwatch and DD constant smoke screen..   ?

 

Fixed that -1 someone had given you because they don't understand sarcasm! :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
332 posts
214 battles

And BB  should have unlimited repair team with full efficiency every time and not decreasing one ? CA have constant airwatch and DD constant smoke screen..   ?

 

that's kind of a dumb comparison... a battleship is still a battleship without its repair skill. The correct comparison would be "What if BBs and CAs had unlimited ammo" .... ooooooh about that...

 

What I love about this is that you will see the same people who, when Carrier/AA balance is called into question, will say "oh it's fine you just have to maneuver more, you might lose some more planes but oh well, who cares right?" are the same people who then turn around and say "oh no unlimited planes is ridiculous, that would be way too op"  :P

 

The double think amuses me greatly. ^^

 

Personally I don't think unlimited is necessary. The pool should just be larger. Pre patch in my Saipan I already regularly ran out of airplanes by simply attacking Fusos Nagatos and Amagis without Cruiser support. At those tiers it's not uncommon to fly an attack and lose 2-3 planes per squadron. If there is a cruiser that can go up very quickly. The problem as I see it right now is that playing a carrier well relies more on the opponent being stupid or badly organized than your own skill. Your own skill gets you only so far and then it's really just a /brainafk check for the enemy and I just think that's awful game design

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Weekend Tester
1,668 posts
32 battles

Or just simply ...I don't know

Decrease the AA on ships so you wouldn't lose so much planes?

 

Just a guess

 

that's kind of a dumb comparison... a battleship is still a battleship without its repair skill. The correct comparison would be "What if BBs and CAs had unlimited ammo" .... ooooooh about that...

 

 

Well, even if you'd give BBs, CAs, and DDs limited ammo they'd never run out because they carried enough for a 20 minute continuous gunfight 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Weekend Tester
64 posts
256 battles

If you run out of airplanes, you can always go and cap something. Also this problem is already resolved by tier6 when you get your bigger hangars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
295 posts
65 battles

if carriers didn't run out of planes we can go ahead and change the name of the game to WOCV....dude, that's silly idea, all CV would do is spam planes all dayyyy loooong, who cares if they die just click, spam, click spam, zero skill required and whoever has a higher bomber loadout wins...period.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
299 posts
692 battles

Limited regeneration could be up for grabs. Maybe have it that after your replacements are used up, you slowly regenerate planes on squadrons that are still alive. So if you have no more reserve planes, and you send 3 squadrons out, 2 get completely wiped out, but one limps back with a few planes, it could slowly regenerate planes back. Maybe one plane a minute, just for that squadron. If the squadron is destroyed you can't regenerate them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
147 posts
3,474 battles

I think the repair skill for planes could be worth a consideration, especially as AA is much deadlier here then it ever was in WWII.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
13 posts
3,205 battles

I think the repair skill for planes could be worth a consideration, especially as AA is much deadlier here then it ever was in WWII.

 

 

 

As a CV player myself - ww2 naval war for me is all about carriers - I cannot see anything happening in a carrier other than servicing planes. There won't be any cannibalization of damaged planes to build a half-arsed extra.

 

Next I suggest you really investigate the naval ack ack during ww2. A simple escort DE with defective AA setup, 1 40mm and quad 20mm could put 3500 projectiles in the air per minute. Now start making maths towards the bigger light cruisers or Fletcher escorts... it is indeed a ack ack umbrella.

 

Game is scaled down 1:4 of sorts. The ack ack is also scaled down. The expected losses of 1/3 of a squadron was quite normal for a attack carrier.

 

Perfect example is the Okinawa IJN air fleet in the first day attack, roughly 500 planes including a couple hundred "intended on dying for the emperor" explosive laden airplanes, was so effective that only managed to hurt a couple ships. That is how effective AA is when a fleet keeps together.

 

In game even a specialized AA cruiser is in dire straits if he is caught on his own by all the attack aircraft complement.

 

Plane regeneration would unbalance things a lot.

Edited by Hethwill_Khan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
101 posts
2,001 battles

And BB  should have unlimited repair team with full efficiency every time and not decreasing one ? CA have constant airwatch and DD constant smoke screen..   ?

 

When a BB presses repair on cooldown you are at the end of the match when you have no charges anymore anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,196 posts
5,309 battles

This would reflect reality as lone planes limp back from the fight and are patched up, to a state where they can be returned to the battle once again. There would also be planes that return in an un-repairable state but whose parts can be scavenged to fix their comrades. Being "dead" doesn't not necessarily mean being blown to bits, it would often mean coming back in a state where they are "out of the fight", but that doesn't mean such a return is useless.

 

[edited], airplanes that drop out of the skies in a violent fireball does not equal "limp back from the fight".

 

The damaged planes need to fly back to the Carrier, not teleport there from the bottom of the ocean...

 

 

It would be much better if it's harder to shoot down airplanes but they can change status to "damaged" or yellow and when you are out of fresh airplanes of the type it will take say 2x or 3x longer preparation times to repair damage ones.

 

Or perhaps they are put into a "damaged" pool and not counted as planes that can be launched until repaired, for example you could see a button/progress bar repairing one airplane at a time in your UI, and click the button to switch focus and repair another type of airplanes first.

 

 

 

Perfect example is the Okinawa IJN air fleet in the first day attack, roughly 500 planes including a couple hundred "intended on dying for the emperor" explosive laden airplanes, was so effective that only managed to hurt a couple ships. That is how effective AA is when a fleet keeps together.

 

Can you provide your source that a majority of these Japanese airplanes was indeed shot down by AA and not by fighters from the 20+ Carriers that were defending the fleet? As far as I have read it took many many thousands of shells to shoot down a single airplane on average, and AA was much less effective in reality then in this game.

 

Latewar US fighters was the number one killer of Japanese airplanes, not AA, AA was used primary for defense to scare the attackers to drop early and miss, not to kill airplanes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
13 posts
3,205 battles

Yes, AA and Fighter cover of course. A war is not a game and everything comes into play. Rhetoric discussion sir but put three task forces with hundreds of escorts pouring lead into the sky and yes it is a scary sight. Same as it doesn't take a thousand shells to take any plane down sir, one burst is enough. What takes a thousand is hitting it ;)

 

On another note you have the not-so-awesome-have-no-idea-what-the-hype-is Yamato. Two hours being attacked by planes and the AA array couldn't provide anything else that a nuisance to the planes piling onto it. But then fires are nasty business on a ship, unlike the situation we have in game.

That is another discussion though.

 

In game...If I lose a third of my planes or a squad in three that is normal. Nothing wrong. If I lose half my force in the attack, well it is quite okay, nothing out of the "credibility scope". Full loss is a pain and happens when I launch the planes in suicidal missions which have variable results. Also happens when a CV captain is silly enough to send them over grouped cruisers covering BBs. Oh yes, many many times I have seen this so I imagine a regeneration bonus would be great to keep on doing the same mistake.

 

Plane "factory" in a carrier is totally off the "credibility bubble". The rework for carriers requires attention on two factors - scouting range, after all nothing would beat the use of airplanes for scouting purposes & the lethality of attack aircraft which actually shaped ww2 naval history and sunk literally the battleship era.

 

Kudos. Interesting to read some gamey opinions though, but I rather have the game stick to good dynamics and not artificial balancing.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SICK]
Weekend Tester
4,686 posts
9,234 battles

So, people are ok with battleships magically healing, CAs magically getting twice more efficient AA for 20 seconds (do the gunners squint their eyes and concentrate extra hard for 20 seconds?), DDs having smoke generators that generate smoke infront of them, all having unlimited ammo...

 

But not ok with CVs getting unassembled planes from their storage, and quickly assembling them?

That somehow having an extra squadron or two at the end of the battle, after few minutes of waiting with 0 planes will somehow be OP? 

Man, CVs aren't even OP at full strength currently, what's an 8-12 extra planes that take 5 minutes to service?

 

Seriously.

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
13 posts
3,205 battles

IIRC the extra planes we have in the carrier will refill the squadrons. I return with one plane left and the squad gets to full strength from the reserve numbers. Yes, they are not unlimited.

 

I am not okay with artificial mechanics as you point out for all the other classes - for example the torpedo ammo should be limited and/or cooldown increased, but I cannot agree for a balance of broken mechanics ( broken IMO ) instead of striving for optimal mechanics balance, which we, as players, should strive for.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
2,299 posts
1,085 battles

I am thorn in this issue. On the one hand I don't really like the idea of "repair", but on the other I do think that CV without planes is a huge gameplay issue.
Maybe more sense from the flavor point of view would make skill that requests additional supplies? You send radio message and request plane transfer from the CV outside of the map. New squadrons would still need to land, rearm and take off. 

I don't know, most importantly I would like to see changes to fighters first.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,196 posts
5,309 battles

So, people are ok with battleships magically healing, CAs magically getting twice more efficient AA for 20 seconds (do the gunners squint their eyes and concentrate extra hard for 20 seconds?), DDs having smoke generators that generate smoke infront of them, all having unlimited ammo...

 

But not ok with CVs getting unassembled planes from their storage, and quickly assembling them?

That somehow having an extra squadron or two at the end of the battle, after few minutes of waiting with 0 planes will somehow be OP? 

Man, CVs aren't even OP at full strength currently, what's an 8-12 extra planes that take 5 minutes to service?

 

Seriously.

 

Common sense, you solve the root cause of the problem ( why is it so easy to annihilate all the carriers airplanes in 10min ), not the side effects of it ( carriers need a boost of even more airplanes when it happens ).

 

For example if all AAA worked to disrupt bombing accuracy of targeted squadrons gradually instead, then it may be OK that AAA is less deadly but better at causing torpedoes and bombs to miss... So more airplanes survive.

Say if you have 4 Iowa in formation all firing AAA at the same time, it's totally reasonable this flak barrage would be more disruptive then what a single cruiser can put up, but it still probably shouldn't annihilate any airplane within 3km in less then 1 second like currently...

 

Making general AAA less deadly but more disruptive, or introducing damaged airplanes and making airplanes more resilient like I first suggested, are two historical and good ways to solve the root cause of the problem, that airplanes die to easilly to AAA.

 

Historical numbers that Hethwill_Khan (thanks) sent me in PM suggests even latewar USN AAA that was best in class only could shoot down 17% of all approaching bombers, so pretty much spot on one in 6. And here we are talking about sporadic Japanese attacks of small numbers of airplanes against a large taskforce in formation and with layered AAA... In the attacks on Yamato only 2.6% of the attacking US airplanes were shot down by AAA.

 

 

I would also like to add that I haven't experienced this ( running out of airplanes ) being a big issue at all myself. By not playing suicidally in my 50ish games in Carriers I only experienced total loss of all aircraft in 3 games, and in all these 3 occasions there were less then 3 minutes left in the game anyways so very little I could do, perhaps I would had time for a single more strike at best, and instead had to try to ram something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
13 posts
3,205 battles

While the the lethality of ack-ack could be toned down, for balance and supported by historical credibility the supression effect - planes have to abort drop and cycle back and forth again as we have in game - should be increased.

 

Implementing a new mechanic of plane-factory to fix a breaking AA mechanic might not be wise, but to balance lethality and supression mechanics of the flak might be interesting.

 

Kudos to Hauptbahnhof for the info exchange, very constructive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
59 posts
970 battles

I would support limited resupply,

im a BB captain and I get to enjoy unlimited ammo and a mend button why should CVs be the only ship that does not have unlimmited ammo?

It should be a slow regeneration or a limited button push like the BB mend.

My opinon of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,196 posts
5,309 battles

I would support limited resupply,

im a BB captain and I get to enjoy unlimited ammo and a mend button why should CVs be the only ship that does not have unlimmited ammo?

 

You don't have unlimited ammo as a BB captain... Your ammo runs out if you fire nonstop for 80-100 minutes just like it would on historical Battleships that have around 150-200 reloads per gun... :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×