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Stats for seccondary guns?

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[GUKA]
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Would it not be nice to be able to see stats for seccondary guns ( rof , dammage , and so on ) just like you can on your main battery.

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[POMF]
Weekend Tester
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Why not?

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Beta Tester
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What would you gain in usefull data?

 

Would you use different guns? You cant!

 

Would you aim at other areas of enemy ships? You cant!

 

Would you use different ammunition? You cant!

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[RONIN]
Beta Tester
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I think its's a good idea. What would you gain?

Depends how you use your secondaries. If they're something that happens around you while you're playing then yeah you probably wouldn't notice. If you're playing a ship that specialises in secondarys (particularly forward facing ones that benefit an aggressive playstyle) such as the warspite/nagato then knowing what your chances of causing fires, dispersion, how.much damage they are likely to cause, how often they'll fire are all important.

Allows you to make informed descisions as to whether or not to leave them to deal with a destroyer or if you should use your main battery too.

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Beta Tester
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The game has only 2 forms of secondary armament, 155mm or bigger, firing AP rounds, or smaller than 155mm, wich use HE.

 

Damage? Is less important than the actual placement of the guns. The secondary Armament of a Fuso is worse than that of a Nagato due to the lower placement of the guns and thus higher chance of hitting the water.

 

Rate of fire? Please explain how this information would help you decide wheter you should turn your slow turning, inacurate, main armament towards a DD? Lets say, the RoF would be 20 rpm, would you turn your mein turrets? How about a RoF of 15? Would you turn your main turrets?

 

Chance of causing Fire? Dispersion? Nothing you can change, so how would this even remotely help you decide if you should turn your turrets or not?

 

 

No, please explain how knowing the real values would help you in the decision? You secondary armament can destroy a DD in the blink of an eye or miss him for hours, its all in the rng, knowing the exact values will not change any of that so whether you use your main turrets is not dependant of the exact stats of the secondary armament but if you are able to swing them around in time or if you should focus on dodging torps.

 

But lets say your secondary armament has the following stats:

 

6x

Size: 155mm

Shell: AP

Damage: ~5k

RoF: ~15 rpm

Dispersion: 75m

 

10x

Size: 100mm

Shell: HE

Damage: ~2k

Fire: ~5%

RoF: ~20 rpm

Dispersion: 50m

 

 

Now a DD appears on map, 10km away from your position with less than 5k HP left and heading right your way, in an angle of 45°. (i.e. beeing able to use his torps)

 

A) Your main turrets face in roughly the same direction, would you switch targets and fire at the DD?

B.1) Your main turrets are facing the opposite way, would you swin your turrets around?

B.2) Would you also try to steer your Ship so your turrets can aim faster at the incoming DD?

C) Would any of these answers change if your secondary armament would fire 10% faster?

D) How about a 10% lower RoF?

E) You can buy a module improving either your main turret Dispersion or the one for your secondary armament. Knowing the values, would you buy the module?

 

 

I think the exact knowledge of the values of the secondary armament would not help in these decissions in any way. If you can aim your main guns and can afford to do so, you will. If not, you wont. The knowledge if your secondary guns havea RoF of 8, 10 or 12 is useless.

Edited by Wischmob_von_Eimer

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[RONIN]
Beta Tester
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Different situation:

You've encountered an enemy minekaze in your BB with at 4km. You've dodged his torp run due to decent turning circle, swung your bow around to him and your  front mounted secondarys have opened up, hitting him and leaving him on 5K hp

He's now making a run for it, and in 1.9km he will disapear. In 30 secs he can launch torps again. You have about 10-12 seconds before he disapears. 

You can leave him for secondarys, you can turn your front turrets towards him and use those as well, or you can turn your entire ship so you lose out on most secondarys, but have all main guns.

 

Using your above figures, that 12 secs before he disappears would give me 3 more rounds of firing from the first type, of which only 1 shell doing full damage is needed to finish him. A dispersion of 75m isn't too bad against something like a minekaze especially as he'll probably weave so risks catching one in the side as he weaves.

In the 12 second window I have, my ship will fire 18 of those shells. Since destroyers have nice citadels, there's a good chance if this shell hits it'll do full damage.

In addition it'll fire 4 times with the second shell type, putting 10 rounds at him each time, a total of 40 of that shell type in the time frame. With an even better dispersion (50m) there's an even better chance of hitting him. Given HE will be reduced they probably wont do full damage, but 3 or 4 hits will sink him.

 

Given that info, yes I'd leave him to my secondarys, allowing me to focus my main battery om another target where it will do more good.

 

If however they had looked like:

155mm x 6

AP

Damage: 2k

Rof: 4 rpm

Dispersion 150m

 

100mm x10

HE

Damage 0.5k

Rof 6 rpm

Dispersion 100m

Chance of fire 5%

(Because the ranges of these guns are lower than their DD counterparts, so who's to say the damage isn't as well).

 

With those stats, in the same situation, the AP shells will only fire at 15 seconds, and he'll have dissapeared at 12. The secondary ones will fire at 10 seconds, so they will have enough time for a second volley, but the damage they do is unlikely to kill him

 

In that situation I'd swing the main guns around to destroy him, since it's unlikely the secondarys will finish the job.

 

It's also useful for comparing ship vs ship. The warspite and the nagato both have front mounted secondarys. They both have 5km range.

The warspite uses 152mm and 102mm. The nagato uses 140mm and 127mm. Which is better? In the latest patch the nagatos secondarys were made "less accurate" How much did this affect it?

 

The secondary module makes the secondarys "more accurate". How much better? Reliably better? The captain skill gives -10% to reloading speed for secondarys. But I don't know what it is to start with.

 

 

Using your arguement, you don't need to have dispersion values of the main guns. You can't change it.

Similarly you don't need to have turret rotation values either, since you can't change that, so people that feel their turrets are a bit slow can be happy taking a piece of equipment that makes them 15% better without ever knowing the value that they're improving.

 

So maybe you wouldn't look at the values of your secondary weapons (hell I know people that don't look at their turning circle, rudder shift, spotted distance, dispersion, AA range or Secondary range), but others might. Especially since some of the hulls (like US BB) swap out a large number of secondarys for AA. - I played through a few on the x4 weekend, and thus didn't really try out the stock hulls. What am I missing out on losing all those secondarys?

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Beta Tester
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So maybe you wouldn't look at the values of your secondary weapons (hell I know people that don't look at their turning circle, rudder shift, spotted distance, dispersion, AA range or Secondary range), but others might.

 

We even have one that doesn't look at how many guns he has...

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Beta Tester
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We even have one that doesn't look at how many guns he has...

 

Wow, that one was bad, srsly, excuse me princess, but please tell me the logic behind changing ammounts of barrels, not guns, on a hull upgrade for a ship that never changed this in real life and is the only ship in the game to do so.

 

But please, since you are so smart, also explain to me how knowing the exact numbers of you secondary armament would change anything in your playstyle

 

And please, stop trolling, you are neither realy creative nor good with it.

 

 

 

Anyway, @Xevious_Red: You described two different sets of secondary armament, but these values would nit change anything if you knew their exact value. Why? Because you already have a feeling, how your secondary armament performs, exact values dont ad anything to the equation.

 

 

As for not beeing able to change the dispersion of the ship, it is actually a valuabe stat since you can actively aim with your main guns. Guns with a huge dispersion should not be used for Sniping or you should fire HE at max ranges while more accurate guns "can" reliably hit the target.

 

Knowing the dispersion is as neccessary as knowing the reload or chance to cause a fire with HE because you can actively adapt to different stats on different ships.

 

Thats the key dfference, you can use and exploit strengths with equipment you can use yourself, AI controlled guns on the other hand will not be able to do so and neither are you, thus removing any use you could have for the knowledge about the exact values.

Edited by Wischmob_von_Eimer

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[RONIN]
Beta Tester
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Wow, that one was bad, srsly, excuse me princess, but please tell me the logic behind changing ammounts of barrels, not guns, on a hull upgrade for a ship that never changed this in real life and is the only ship in the game to do so.

 

But please, since you are so smart, also explain to me how knowing the exact numbers of you secondary armament would change anything in your playstyle

 

And please, stop trolling, you are neither realy creative nor good with it.

 

 

 

Anyway, @Xevious_Red: You described two different sets of secondary armament, but these values would nit change anything if you knew their exact value. Why? Because you already have a feeling, how your secondary armament performs, exact values dont ad anything to the equation.

 

 

As for not beeing able to change the dispersion of the ship, it is actually a valuabe stat since you can actively aim with your main guns. Guns with a huge dispersion should not be used for Sniping or you should fire HE at max ranges while more accurate guns "can" reliably hit the target.

 

Knowing the dispersion is as neccessary as knowing the reload or chance to cause a fire with HE because you can actively adapt to different stats on different ships.

 

Thats the key dfference, you can use and exploit strengths with equipment you can use yourself, AI controlled guns on the other hand will not be able to do so and neither are you, thus removing any use you could have for the knowledge about the exact values.

 

I have a "feeling" for how tightly the ship turns, how fast it goes, how responsive it is to rudder changes, what the turrets turn like and what the grouping is like on shells. I can honestly say I've never thought "hmmm these IJN DD turrets will take 45 secs to turn I better start turning them now". Instead i've thought "this thing has slow turrets, it'll be faster to turn the ship".

 

Now the secondarys are AI controlled certainly, but knowing how good they are will help judge whether they're something you can exploit, or simply something that might occassionally provide a minor bonus.

 

Similarly, for people going against that ship - if I'm in a DD and I'm doing a run on a fuso, I have the choice between angling towards his front (easier for him to dodge, might swing front turret around, but less secondarys), or coming in at his blind side (increased secondarys, but harder for him to dodge, no main guns). How much damage are his secondarys *likely* to do?

If they've all just fired off and some hit me, was that because he was lucky, and the next volley wont be coming for ages, and when they do they'll be pretty innacurate - if so then I have plenty of time to close to shotgun range and sink him.

However, if that first volley was just a taste of things to come, and the next volley is coming in 2 secs time, then I need to launch torps now and bug out quickly.

 

You say you get a feel for things with experience, thats very true. If you gave me a mystery ship where I have no idea what any of its stats were, I'd fairly soon work out what it is and isn't good at. That isn't a good reason however to simply not have stats, because people will probably work it out anyway.

 

What I don't understand is why you seem so dead set against it.

For you it might be useless info, for others its not. How would YOUR game be affected if people could view what their secondaries actually did.

The AA guns have their DPS value, and they're all AI controlled, so its not like theres not a prescedent for supplying the informatiom about AI controlled weaponry

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Beta Tester
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I am not against it, I am just saying that we dont need this knowledge and that the positioning on the ship is more important to the performance of secondary armament then any attributes we cant even change.

 

 

Anyway, there is way more important stuff to do in the game and right now all you need to know for secondary armament is:

 

- Position on ship

- Range

- Type of shell fired

 

 

And you already have these informations ingame.

 

Anything else is just "feeling it".

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Beta Tester
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I should point out that this is a person that, when challenged that he missed getting two extra guns on an upgrade because he didn't check his stats and that surely it was common to check that, replied

 

I actually dont masturbate about the ammount or size of the barrels of my ship

 

 

Perhaps he's got deeply personal reasons for not wanting to see the details of his ships.

 

I don't think there's any good reason why we can't see the stats, and he's certainly not been able to provide one.

 

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[RONIN]
Beta Tester
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I am not against it, I am just saying that we dont need this knowledge and that the positioning on the ship is more important to the performance of secondary armament then any attributes we cant even change.

 

 

Anyway, there is way more important stuff to do in the game and right now all you need to know for secondary armament is:

 

- Position on ship

- Range

- Type of shell fired

 

 

And you already have these informations ingame.

 

Anything else is just "feeling it".

Oh don't get me wrong, its by no means a priority, and the game is far from unplayable without this information. However its not a large job to add this info to port (they need to do an update to the port UI anyway to put the armour values back on), especially as those values will already exist, they're just not displayed anywhere. Its a small change that will please those that want it, without causing any dispruption to those that don't really care/see no value to those figures

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Beta Tester
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But it is the same with ground ressistance or gun elevation in WoT, these are hidden stats for a reason.

 

Allthough I dont think it is for balancing reasons.

 

 

Still no idea how anyone would change how he plays his ships when he knows the exact data of his secondary armament compared to his playstile right now. And no viable example either.

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[RONIN]
Beta Tester
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But it is the same with ground ressistance or gun elevation in WoT, these are hidden stats for a reason.

 

Allthough I dont think it is for balancing reasons.

 

 

Still no idea how anyone would change how he plays his ships when he knows the exact data of his secondary armament compared to his playstile right now. And no viable example either.

If they are purposefully hidden then fair enough. If they are simply not shown then there are those of us that would like access to this info.

You say no viable example. I provided two where the knowledge of their specifications would change how I played.

 

If you think these are meaningless then we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

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