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[EX-TH]
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Hi guys,

I have an issue for last 3 weeks. I wrote couple of emails to customer support but I find that their answer is not logical and against information about setting smoke screen. I use German destroyers (Z-46-, Z-52, Z-23, Maas and Gaede) 

 

Problem is; I follow an enemy ships, they are visible depend on their concealment distance on normal circumstances (normal weather, no fired, not behind mountain)  for example 7 KM to me a battle ship. As you know none any of battleship has concealment 7 KM, they should be visible and they are.

 

If I start to shoot, they will see me, so, as a normal destroy player, I set smoke for safely fire. Than this big battleship is disappear / invisible!, even some carrier too! 

 

Main purpose of set smoke is for runaway or safely fire from smoke area, but if (some) battleships and (some) carrier are disappear/invisible, how can you runaway (bec you dont see them where they go) or how you can shoot them if you have no target?

 

Customer support says that, if I'm in my own smokescreen area and if there is not another ally in this area than enemy ship will be not spotted by my teammates so they can be disappear!

From my side is this cant be logical answer. If I cant runaway and cant shoot, what is the purpose / gain setting smoke? But their answer are not changed after couple of email and they suggest me to write in this website that may be some game developer can see / monitor this issue.

 

I send replays to them, when enemy is visible and when i set smoke enemy ships are disappear even they said its normal!

 

I enclosed some replay with time stamp on file name, but answer are not changed.

And this issue was not more than 1 year, its start last 3 weeks.

 

Any information / ideas welcome.

 

Regards,

Peter

 

amalgi disappear less than 6 KM udalgi in smoke 20200620_235645_PGSB108-Bismarck_38_Canada.wowsreplay

carrier disa. 10 20 between 08 25 20200621_050950_PGSD109-Z-46_44_Path_warrior.wowsreplay

Dis ship agains carrier alaska time 10 40 20200620_180629_PGSD110-Z-52_37_Ridge.wowsreplay

Dis ship smolenks time 08 04 20200616_011727_PGSD109-Z-46_15_NE_north.wowsreplay

dis ship time 15 42 20200620_172944_PGSD110-Z-52_28_naval_mission.wowsreplay

dis ship york time 07 45 20200617_001753_PGSD109-Z-46_37_Ridge.wowsreplay

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2 minutes ago, qdfl said:

Customer support says that, if I'm in my own smokescreen area and if there is not another ally in this area than enemy ship will be not spotted by my teammates so they can be disappear!

They gave you the right answer.

 

 

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[CHEFT]
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Its 100% Correct, that you cant see a ship inside your smoke screen. Why should you? You cant be seen either.

The only way to see a ship inside/outside/through a smoke screen is by shooting. BBs have a huge smoke firing penalty, like 15+km. Cruisers are ~5-14km, and DDs <4km.

Example:

- a BB is 10km from your smokescreen while you are a DD. BB fires -> you see him. You can fire at him, but remain unspotted

- a BB is 5km from your smokescreen, while you are a Minotaur. BB fires, you see him. If you fire at him, the BB can see you aswell.

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Beta Tester
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Smoke blocks all line of sight, that is its purpose. If you are the only one spotting and smoke up, you don't see the ship anymore, and this works the other way around. Now if a ship fires within its smoke firing penalty you can see it, and if someone else outside your smoke has direct line of sight, you can also see it.

 

All is working as intented.

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3 hours ago, qdfl said:

From my side is this cant be logical answer.

So it would be logical if your eyes could penetrate your smoke, but others' couldn't? :Smile_amazed: You are no Lasombra wielding Obtenebration; it is smoke that is impenetrable to human vision. ALL human vision.

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[EX-TH]
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Guys,

Everyone say something, but need some simple answer; why you set smoke?

 

If you cant shoot or if you cant runaway what is the purpose?

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[LSCA]
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3 minutes ago, qdfl said:

Guys,

Everyone say something, but need some simple answer; why you set smoke?

 

If you cant shoot or if you cant runaway what is the purpose?

well that is good question, you make the supporting smoke screen for you teammates then you scout and others shoot from behind smokescreen

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[_I_]
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3 minutes ago, qdfl said:

Guys,

Everyone say something, but need some simple answer; why you set smoke?

 

If you cant shoot or if you cant runaway what is the purpose?

Why can you not shoot?

 

why can you not run away?

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[L4GG]
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54 minutes ago, qdfl said:

Hi guys,

I have an issue for last 3 weeks. I wrote couple of emails to customer support but I find that their answer is not logical and against information about setting smoke screen. I use German destroyers (Z-46-, Z-52, Z-23, Maas and Gaede) 

 

Problem is; I follow an enemy ships, they are visible depend on their concealment distance on normal circumstances (normal weather, no fired, not behind mountain)  for example 7 KM to me a battle ship. As you know none any of battleship has concealment 7 KM, they should be visible and they are.

 

If I start to shoot, they will see me, so, as a normal destroy player, I set smoke for safely fire. Than this big battleship is disappear / invisible!, even some carrier too! 

That's because you set a smoke screen, ( you cannot see into a smoke screens or see outside a smoke screen)

That happened because.

you blocked your team mates sights with your smoke or there isn't any teammates with a direct and unobstructed line of sight to your target 

so, once your smokescreen starts to deploy you lose vision of your target  .

All german dds have hydro that will give you a 6km warning about ships and torps.

proxy spotted it's around 2 km.

Quote

 

Main purpose of set smoke is for runaway or safely fire from smoke area, but if (some) battleships and (some) carrier are disappear/invisible, how can you runaway (bec you dont see them where they go) or how you can shoot them if you have no target?

you have to make sure your smokescreen doesn't block your team mates vision and/or there is more ships of your team with a direct line of sight to your target.

make sure the ships that you targeted are inside your main guns range and the target will be in your torps range

then and only then you smoke up and when you do activate hydro

If you want to creep in or to get close to a smoke screen, don't shoot until you are at 6km of the smoke then activate the hydro and dislodge the other DD (german dds are a good contester of caps and a good smokescreen hijackers)

If you see a French dd or a german dd or EU dd or a CL towards you  and then you stop seeing them for a long time because you smoked up, they are coming for you, they are creeping in to your position, Hydro can be your best friend and the other guy best friend.

Make sure you know each ship shoot in smoke penalty that you play

Quote

Customer support says that, if I'm in my own smokescreen area and if there is not another ally in this area than enemy ship will be not spotted by my teammates so they can be disappear!

From my side is this cant be logical answer. If I cant runaway and cant shoot, what is the purpose / gain setting smoke? But their answer are not changed after couple of email and they suggest me to write in this website that may be some game developer can see / monitor this issue.

 

I send replays to them, when enemy is visible and when i set smoke enemy ships are disappear even they said its normal!

 

I enclosed some replay with time stamp on file name, but answer are not changed.

And this issue was not more than 1 year, its start last 3 weeks.

 

Any information / ideas welcome.

 

Regards,

Peter

 

amalgi disappear less than 6 KM udalgi in smoke 20200620_235645_PGSB108-Bismarck_38_Canada.wowsreplay

carrier disa. 10 20 between 08 25 20200621_050950_PGSD109-Z-46_44_Path_warrior.wowsreplay

Dis ship agains carrier alaska time 10 40 20200620_180629_PGSD110-Z-52_37_Ridge.wowsreplay

Dis ship smolenks time 08 04 20200616_011727_PGSD109-Z-46_15_NE_north.wowsreplay

dis ship time 15 42 20200620_172944_PGSD110-Z-52_28_naval_mission.wowsreplay

dis ship york time 07 45 20200617_001753_PGSD109-Z-46_37_Ridge.wowsreplay

 

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Smoke screens can be set by DDs to screen other ships from line of sight whilst the DD stays clear of the smoke & not shooting   to spot the red team.

 

 

To quote Jingles "That's an angry looking smoke screen" and "What do smoke screens attract, boy & girls?   Torpedoes....."

 

:cap_popcorn:

 

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Quality Poster, In AlfaTesters
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As has been mentioned here repeatedly, the issue is that you do not understand the concealment system.

1 hour ago, qdfl said:

Everyone say something, but need some simple answer; why you set smoke?

 

If you cant shoot or if you cant runaway what is the purpose?

When you set smoke, ships inside the smoke are more difficult to detect by ships outside the smoke, and ships outside the smoke are more difficult to detect by ships inside the smoke. The way that smoke obstructs vision works both ways, the difference between the people on the inside of the smoke and the outside is that the other players on the outside of the smoke can still be spotted normally by everyone else. If someone else is spotting the enemy for you and you use smoke then you will benefit from the smoke but the enemy will remain spotted. If you are the one doing the spotting when you smoke up then you will deny yourself your own vision of the enemy.

 

WGs latest video on how spotting works has comprehensive instruction on concealment, detectability, vision and spotting including the effects of smoke and more such as the consumables that counter the effects of smoke. It is worth watching.

https://youtu.be/OgRUSmzcw2s

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2 hours ago, qdfl said:

Guys,

Everyone say something, but need some simple answer; why you set smoke?

 

If you cant shoot or if you cant runaway what is the purpose?

You can shoot; you just need to have someone else spotting them for you. If you're the only one spotting something and you don't need to disengage to save yourself, you shouldn't smoke up – keep spotting them so the rest of your team can shoot them. It might not be glamorous but it wins battles. To quote that well known group of sages, Sabaton: Primo Victoria.

 

Smoke will absolutely still help with running away, even if you lose spots on the ship in question while doing so.

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Be nice everyone. Don't drop by just to leave a snarky reply.

It's like making fun of people out of shape at the gym. They are clearly trying to improve by being there so help them.

 

I deleted some posts but I am keeping an eye on the thread.

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2 hours ago, qdfl said:

Guys,

Everyone say something, but need some simple answer; why you set smoke?

 

If you cant shoot or if you cant runaway what is the purpose?

Hide.

Torp guessing where the opponent will be.

Get away, using the smoke as a cover wall.

Save yourself (for a moment) from a CV attack.

Create an illusion, which you can exploit and attack from another angle.

Finally, to shoot at enemies from relative safety, but for this to work you need,

1: either to trick them to shoot their guns

2: Ask your teamate to spot them for you (not all teamates take kindly to a DD captain asking for spotting :)

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[SM0KE]
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2 hours ago, qdfl said:

why you set smoke?

 

If you cant shoot or if you cant runaway what is the purpose?

On the off-chance you aren't just trying to wind people up:

  • First port of call is the wiki: https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Detection
  • Basically, smoke blocks line of sight to everything that isn't radar or hydro (if you don't know about smoke, you may wish to read up on those too); all of its uses revolve around that fact, until you get close enough for assured detection.
  • As others have mentioned, when you fire, the distance through smoke that you can be spotted from increases, approximately in proportion to the size of gun fired (firing torps has no impact on visibility).

Knowing that, and how the game in general works, you should be able to elucidate how to make the most of smoke yourself, and deal with it when it's used against you.

 

Some things to think about/be aware of:

  • Recall that if anyone on your team can see an opposing ship, then so can you (assuming it's in render range; if it isn't, it'll just show on the minimap); this means that if you are in smoke then you will still 'see' opponents beyond/outside the smoke, provided someone on your side has them acquired. The reverse is also true.
  • Hydro and radar see straight through smoke; so, you can see out of a smoke screen with either of them, and others can see in. Hydro and radar both have a finite run time though and finite range, which you need to be mindful of to play around them.
  • At the most fundamental level, you lay smoke to break line of sight (and use hydro/radar to nullify that for a short time).
  • You will often see people sitting still in a smoke screen and firing at the enemy; this is often foolish - many players can infer where you are by looking at your tracers, plus anyone worth their salt with torps in the vicinity will fire them into smoke screens on general principles.
  • You absolutely can shoot through smoke and stay undetected, *but* someone needs to have the target lit (either you, via radar/hydro, or anyone on your team by any means); see the bit above regarding smoke firing though - a BB can be spotted when it fires through smoke from much further away than something like a DD.
  • You absolutely can use smoke to help you run away (it's one reason why the RN DDs are worthwhile - their smoke is great for this), but you still want to jink - an experienced player will fire at where you would be if you didn't change course/speed, or just at the leading edge of a growing smoke cloud - assuming they have a suitable angle.
  • Smoke doesn't have to only be about you as well: use it to block line of sight to allies to make them harder to hit (maybe save an ally who is under heavy fire and/or mortally damaged).
  • You can also use smoke as a decoy: if you pop a smoke cloud and then move away at full speed, you can sometimes bait torps (see earlier point about torping idiots in smoke) and/or radar, or make the opposition think you're somewhere where you aren't. To do this well requires decent situational awareness though e.g. no point baiting radar if it's a) on the other side of the map, or b) you're too far into its range to get away in time (assuming no island to hide behind).

Of course, there is plenty more than that, but I'm not entirely convinced you aren't pulling everyone's leg...

 

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[EX-TH]
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Guys,

I read all information and your ideas and customer support answers too, thank you.

 

Suppose all your ally destroyed, from enemy side there is only 1 battle ship left. You can see him from 10 KM, you want to close until your concealment distance for torp in my case 5.9 KM. AND at 7 KM what I understand is, if I set smoke than ship is disappear....Thats mean I can only torp him without seen...not shoot! (if I dont want to be seen)

 

So, my concern was not mean how mechanism is working (I know regarding information) my question was; logic of the mechanism is not correct as player wish (hide & shoot).

 

 

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53 minutes ago, qdfl said:

Guys,

I read all information and your ideas and customer support answers too, thank you.

 

Suppose all your ally destroyed, from enemy side there is only 1 battle ship left. You can see him from 10 KM, you want to close until your concealment distance for torp in my case 5.9 KM. AND at 7 KM what I understand is, if I set smoke than ship is disappear....Thats mean I can only torp him without seen...not shoot! (if I dont want to be seen)

 

So, my concern was not mean how mechanism is working (I know regarding information) my question was; logic of the mechanism is not correct as player wish (hide & shoot).

If you insist on using your smoke, you can trick him into firing his main guns, he should become visible.

Start the smoke directly after he fired, he'll remain visible for 20 seconds. Pepper him with your guns in that time. Keep firing at him even after he vanished. Use the minimap and his last known position to guess where he might be.  At such short range you should be able to keep him tracked by where you see your granades explode.

 

If he fires blindly into the smoke he'll become visible again for another 20 seconds.

 

If that isn't an option you can always chose not to fight. Stay invisible and go for the cap zones. The goal is to win, sinking enemies is secondary.

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2 minutes ago, qdfl said:

Suppose all your ally destroyed, from enemy side there is only 1 battle ship left. You can see him from 10 KM, you want to close until your concealment distance for torp in my case 5.9 KM. AND at 7 KM what I understand is, if I set smoke than ship is disappear....Thats mean I can only torp him without seen...not shoot! (if I dont want to be seen)

Assuming you are a DD in that situation:

  • Don't fire guns, unless there is a pressing need to do so and/or the target BB is essentialy a one-shot; have torps selected (if the BB has PT, he knows when you switch between guns and torps).
  • Don't use smoke - you outspot the BB substantially (if I'm reading your post correctly, you have about a 1 km torp stealth fire window).
  • In general, the most effective way to kill a BB (if you're most DDs) is with torps; with the exception of maybe a few Russians (and Friesland), one-on-one DD v BB, the DD's guns are ornamental, if you want to be safe.

So, who cares if you can't fire guns in that situation - you simply don't need to.

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56 minutes ago, qdfl said:

Guys,

I read all information and your ideas and customer support answers too, thank you.

 

Suppose all your ally destroyed, from enemy side there is only 1 battle ship left. You can see him from 10 KM, you want to close until your concealment distance for torp in my case 5.9 KM. AND at 7 KM what I understand is, if I set smoke than ship is disappear....Thats mean I can only torp him without seen...not shoot! (if I dont want to be seen)

 

So, my concern was not mean how mechanism is working (I know regarding information) my question was; logic of the mechanism is not correct as player wish (hide & shoot).

 

 

To add to @Verblonde's point: if the battle ends with only one DD on one team and one BB on the other, there's a good possibility that the DD can win with caps.

 

Edit: oops, didn't see @Egoleter had mentioned this already :Smile_hiding:

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[SM0KE]
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BTW OP, your original post mentions KM DDs:

 

First, one-on-one against a BB, unless you've done something enormously ill-advised with your build, you *will* win with torps alone - you certainly don't need either guns or smoke.

 

Something to be aware of if you use hydro - the BB knows when he's detected by your hydro, so he therefore knows you're in hydro range - so you reduce his uncertainty as to your location dramatically (if he is only visually detected, he only knows you're within his surface spotting distance, which is a much larger circle). This is slightly OT, as if you detect him with hydro from within a smoke screen, he already knows where you are - more or less - from where the smoke is, but I mention it as the same applies if you're trying to bushwhack him from behind an island.

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29 minutes ago, qdfl said:

Suppose all your ally destroyed, from enemy side there is only 1 battle ship left. You can see him from 10 KM, you want to close until your concealment distance for torp in my case 5.9 KM. AND at 7 KM what I understand is, if I set smoke than ship is disappear....Thats mean I can only torp him without seen...not shoot! (if I dont want to be seen)

As it happens, I have only (permanent) ship in my port: The German DD Gaede (I don't count the Hermelin, which has a place of honor for giving me a Kraken in my very first random game) - so I know a bit about smoke.

 

His concealment is lower than his torpedo range, like in your example. This means I can fire my torpedo without being spotted, and - naturally - without being exposed to enemy fire. Smoke is not required. You use smoke when you are the one getting spotted, not when you are easily outspotting a battleship. If it drives away from you - don't give chase. With only 1 - 2 km stealth window you cannot get close enough to torp it unseen, so the torpedoes will probably not reach him. If he is approaching you, your stealth window is actually much wider, because you can launch a couple of km before he is in range. If you attack from the side, check into which direction his turrets are facing. If they are facing away from you and he is not a 2ndary monster, then you can even show a bit of courage and risk getting spotted - until his turrets have swung around, you should have retreated into stealth already.

 

Smoke is either a tool to help your teammates, an emergency screen to retreat safely when you blunder into an enemy unexpectedly, or - if someone is spotting for you - a temporary cover to fire your little guns.

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[EX-TH]
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Thank you guys for all your valuable opinions, 

 

As you know there are many situation that when you start to fire from smoke to BB's, they generally stop or turn their way / direction, bec they afraid be torped, in that way I can help to my ally or defend a capped area or stopping / holding attacks.

 

Obviously, regarding post, I must think that smoke is just like a curtain, when I close, I cant see outside and outsider cant see me. BUT if some of my friend outside and close to others then my curtain is going to transparent from inside to outside:)

 

This point was my main objection. We must know; is curtain transparent or not, if we say depend situation (other ally spot etc), sometimes yes, sometimes no, than this is not logic answer from my side. Because curtain should work their purpose.

 

  

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1 hour ago, qdfl said:

We must know; is curtain transparent or not

Smoke is (visually) entirely opaque.

 

If you really want to get excitable about the 'logic' behind a game mechanic, I would suggest viewing 'spotted' as not merely meaning some chap on your ship has seen something with binoculars etc. but rather than your ship - as a collective - has a solid fix on something good enough to shoot with.

 

This could mean via the above chap with his binos, or from a radio/lamp signal sent from an allied ship that *does* have LoS to the target. Have you ever been on a museum ship, say? If you have, you'll have seen that - often - all the gunnery solutions are derived somewhere with no windows, and many gun turrets are similarly bereft of sea views.

 

When one thinks in these sorts of terms, the spotting mechanics make a surprising amount of sense, at least at a superficial level (<cough>island-penetrating radar/hydro<cough>).

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