Stat Shaming Rule Clarification Request.

[Sunleader]

This has been Bugging me for a While. But could we get an actual Clarification on how exactly the Stat Shaming Rules work ?

 

Currently I avoid Posting anyones actual Stats entirely. But this also has lead to some unpleasant problems. Such as Dishonest People just Openly Lying about their Statistics and Achievements. Making Claims that could be easily Disproven.

Such as Claiming that in their last Session with a Battleship they Won Most of their Games while doing 150k Average Damage and 2 Kills. When Stats easily Show that they had a Winrate of 41% and only 1.4 Kills. 

Yet. I am worried that if I were to Prove that Statement wrong my Posting the Stats of the Person making that Claim. This would Run afoul the Stat Shaming Rules.

 

So now I would like to ask how exactly Stat Shaming is Ruled here.

Is it only a Violation of the Rule if I Post Stats to Shame someone on his Bad Performance. While Posting Stats to Prove a Definite Point on a Claim would be Allowed.

Or is it Generally not Allowed to Post other Peoples Stats on them. Even if its not Intended as a Shaming but is actual Evidence on a Quoted Claim ?

 

Also. Is it Allowed to Post Stats of People with Name as an Positive Example ?

Because this has also happened in the Past. That I wanted to Post Stats of Someone who is actually very Good. To Demonstrate what Good Stats look like and who to Ask on something. But wasnt sure if It was Allowed to Post this Persons Stats due to Stat Shaming Rules.

Even tough I dont think its Shaming if its actually very Good Stats and thus is more like a Praise than a Shame to have them Posted by Someone.

 

 

Thanks in Advance.

[Yedwy]

TBH i think that since there is in fact option to make your stats private all the stats that are NOT private as such are a matter of public scrutiny and hence using them should not be an offence

[Camperdown]

13 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

This has been Bugging me for a While. But could we get an actual Clarification on how exactly the Stat Shaming Rules work ?

 

Currently I avoid Posting anyones actual Stats entirely. But this also has lead to some unpleasant problems. Such as Dishonest People just Openly Lying about their Statistics and Achievements. Making Claims that could be easily Disproven.

Such as Claiming that in their last Session with a Battleship they Won Most of their Games while doing 150k Average Damage and 2 Kills. When Stats easily Show that they had a Winrate of 41% and only 1.4 Kills. 

Yet. I am worried that if I were to Prove that Statement wrong my Posting the Stats of the Person making that Claim. This would Run afoul the Stat Shaming Rules.

 

So now I would like to ask how exactly Stat Shaming is Ruled here.

Is it only a Violation of the Rule if I Post Stats to Shame someone on his Bad Performance. While Posting Stats to Prove a Definite Point on a Claim would be Allowed.

Or is it Generally not Allowed to Post other Peoples Stats on them. Even if its not Intended as a Shaming but is actual Evidence on a Quoted Claim ?

 

Also. Is it Allowed to Post Stats of People with Name as an Positive Example ?

Because this has also happened in the Past. That I wanted to Post Stats of Someone who is actually very Good. To Demonstrate what Good Stats look like and who to Ask on something. But wasnt sure if It was Allowed to Post this Persons Stats due to Stat Shaming Rules.

Even tough I dont think its Shaming if its actually very Good Stats and thus is more like a Praise than a Shame to have them Posted by Someone.

 

 

Thanks in Advance.

Oc I am no mod, but I would say don't put people down cause of their stats or denigrate their opinions.

[Yedwy]

3 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

Oc I am no mod, but I would say don't put people down cause of their stats or denigrate their opinions.

This is nonsensical...

 

Let me ask this - if you went to see a doctor for an issue would you think a med students opinion is worth same, more or less then opinion of a specialist with say 10 years experience?

 

If you would not find them equal then I guess its logical that in any other aspect of life its the same

[DFens_666]

I think it should be quite clear, but sadly it isnt:

If i post someone stats without any evaluation - GOOD OR BAD! - its not statshaming. If i just post someones stats, how is it "statshaming" unless i actually call him bad/noob or whatever while doing it. And the same goes for being called (division) statpadder/elitist or any other thing. But thats ok ofc, since its targeting good players

 

I dont see, how stating facts can be shaming. If you in any way insult the person however, than its shaming. I think clear rules would be better.

[Sunleader]

6 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

THB i think that since there is in fact option to make your stats private all the stats that are NOT private as such are a matter of public scrutiny and hence using them should not be an offence

 

Well. On a Personal Opinion point of View. I would actually Support Stat Shaming to not be Allowed if its just to be mean about it.

So I am very well in Favor of Rules that dont allow Shaming People on their Stats for no Reason beyond Shaming them or annoying them. Or even Discredit their Opinion on something.

 

However. I do think that when someone makes a Clear Claim on his Stats. It should be Allowed to Post these Stats to Show wether or not he said the Truth.

 

4 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

Oc I am no mod, but I would say don't put people down cause of their stats or denigrate their opinions.

 

Well. I am asking for Clarification on wether its allowed to Post Stats to Prove that a Claim the Person made is Wrong.

In a Sense this would put them down.

 

But dont get me wrong. Thats not my Target there. My Target in Posting it. Would only be to Prove that the Person is making a False Claim.

In this Case someone Claiming to be doing 150k Average Damage and Winning most of his Games in Conqeueror. When in Truth he has a 41% Winrate with these 150k Average Damage. Which likely means he is sitting in the Rear Line and Hurling HE at Enemy BBs 20km away. Thus doing alot of Superficial Damage which the Enemy BBs just Repair while actually not really doing anything useful to Win the Battle.

 

So the Question is. Am I allowed to call him out on that False Claim he is making.

[ForlornSailor]

23 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

This has been Bugging me for a While. But could we get an actual Clarification on how exactly the Stat Shaming Rules work ?

 

Fully agree. My personal view is clear: as long as you dont use the stats to insult or redicule a person, it should be ok.

 

1 minute ago, Sunleader said:

I do think that when someone makes a Clear Claim on his Stats. It should be Allowed to Post these Stats to Show wether or not he said the Truth.

 

Ive done this a couple of times, just pointing at the facts, and ive never been sanctioned for it. Had to argue about it once, but it went through. As it should, imo. But we need clear rules as to whats the "red line".

 

Also - if one doesnt like his stats to be accessable to the public, he was the option to hide it. So by not hiding them, you kinda give your consent, that people see them? I mean its not like if a person posts a picture of someones stats he is doing some leaking, right? Everyone can go and check them. But yea, bottomline: posting any sort of stats, as long as they are open to the public, shouldnt be a problem. No personal attacks, making fun of, etc tho. I kinda hope this will be the policy.

 

[Camperdown]

23 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

This is nonsensical...

 

Let me ask this - if you went to see a doctor for an issue would you think a med students opinion is worth same, more or less then opinion of a specialist with say 10 years experience?

 

If you would not find them equal then I guess its logical that in any other aspect of life its the same

I can summarise it even more succinctly: don't be a d!ck about someone's stats. 

[CptBarney]

If a person is outright lying, being dishonest, then you can call them out with stats. You can use stats to highlight stuff as long as you don't use it as a personal attack etc.

[Yedwy]

13 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

I can summarise it even more succinctly: don't be a d!ck about someone's stats. 

Well I am not, but also a guy saying "respect my authorety" should in fact have some results to his name to back them up

[lossi_2018]

The rule is there for a reason. Choosing to keep your stats visible don't mean you are open to get dragged though the mud or even openly discussed or applauded without giving your permission. I believe the mods are keeping a eye for this and don't feel a change is needed.

[Ze_Reckless]

1 hour ago, CptBarney said:

If a person is outright lying, being dishonest, then you can call them out with stats. You can use stats to highlight stuff as long as you don't use it as a personal attack etc.

And their defense when they feel they got caught is: 'STAT SHAMER!!!1 I go cry to mod!.'

[iFax]

You can check a persons profile using the in game option so its public domain... Removing that information from a forum when the game supplies it publicly is just silly.

[Egoleter]

1 hour ago, Yedwy said:

This is nonsensical...

 

Let me ask this - if you went to see a doctor for an issue would you think a med students opinion is worth same, more or less then opinion of a specialist with say 10 years experience?

 

If you would not find them equal then I guess its logical that in any other aspect of life its the same

What a stupid comparison.

 

Dismissing someones opinion completly not based on the argument made but on how experienced they are would not give you any credit in scientific circles (like the doctors in your example). You'd first check if the argument has actual merit. The argument is not the person making it or his experience but it stands for itself.

 

If you look first and only at the stats of a person, you avoid looking at the argument, intentionally blinding yourself. You attack the person and dismiss the argument. You make yourself look like a person who is only interested in very shallow informations and more complex thinking and arguing are not your forte.

[Yedwy]

6 minutes ago, Egoleter said:

What a stupid comparison.

 

Dismissing someones opinion completly not based on the argument made but on how experienced they are would not give you any credit in scientific circles (like the doctors in your example). You'd first check if the argument has actual merit. The argument is not the person making it or his experience but it stands for itself.

 

If you look first and only at the stats of a person, you avoid looking at the argument, intentionally blinding yourself. You attack the person and dismiss the argument. You make yourself look like a person who is only interested in very shallow informations and more complex thinking and arguing are not your forte.

Yeah we should all abide by the statements of guys that have less then 1k battles and are in deep red, its the best course of action for the game...

[Egoleter]

9 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Yeah we should all abide by the statements of guys that have less then 1k battles and are in deep red, its the best course of action for the game...

If the statement is bad you can argue against it without using the stats as a tool against the player personally.

 

If you can't argue against the statement ...

[Yedwy]

13 minutes ago, Egoleter said:

If the statement is bad you can argue against it without using the stats as a tool against the player personally.

 

If you can't argue against the statement ...

WTF are you talking about? If I come in and say "Muh I averaged 100k in Yahagi over 100 matches and it needs to be nerfed" and you show i did 20k average and am talking BS how is that not a valid argument against my claim?

 

Another example - if I say subs are BS as they are because you can juke damage at around 6m and faceplug basically any DD coming your way while being immune to counter attack because of broken mechanics just by pressing a key twice and some guy that registered for game month ago "to play subs" claims they are under-powered and need buffs because he can only average 10k per match, whose opinion is more likely to be correct? Or do you think we need some scientific facts about it in randoms? You know the kind of facts that got us all the "perfectly balanced" stuff such as Smolensk, Belfast and similar?

[ForlornSailor]

43 minutes ago, lossi_2018 said:

I believe the mods are keeping a eye for this and don't feel a change is needed.

 

I dont think its about a change - its about making clear, where the line is drawn. Some are under the impression, that you cant post any stats. Other think, you may only do so, if the stats are good (which is the most weird defintion, imo) and there prolly are quite a few other views around. What you describe as "dragging through the mud" is not something Id like to be seen as approriate and I dont think that was the intention of OP:

 

12 minutes ago, Egoleter said:

If the statement is bad you can argue against it without using the stats as a tool against the player personally.

 

If you can't argue against the statement ...

 

Thats true for that one example, yet there are indefinte other situations out there, where citing stats might be helpful. Imagine a guy with 39% and one with 41% arguing, if Kurfürst with secondary build or tank build is better. They might even do so in a friendly manner, both with the goal of learning something. So if they cite each others stats to show, which build is better in what case - you gonna ban them both for stat-shaming? Because they are posting stats with a 39% WR? See thats the other side of the coin.

[Egoleter]

3 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

WTF are you talking about? If I come in and say "Muh I averaged 100k in Yahagi over 100 matches and it needs to be nerfed" and you show i did 20k average and am talking BS how is that not a valid argument against my claim?

 

Another example - if I say subs are BS as they are because you can juke damage at around 6m and faceplug basically any DD coming your way while being immune to counter attack because of broken mechanics just by pressing a key twice and some guy that registered for game month ago "to play subs" claims they are under-powered and need buffs because he can only average 10k per match, whose opinion is more likely to be correct? Or do you think we need some scientific facts about it in randoms? You know the kind of facts that got us all the "perfectly balanced" stuff such as Smolensk, Belfast and similar?

Would it be possible for you to remain calm and have an actual discussion or do you want to get even more emotional in your battle to allow stat shaming?

[lossi_2018]

3 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

I dont think its about a change - its about making clear, where the line is drawn. Some are under the impression, that you cant post any stats. Other think, you may only do so, if the stats are good (which is the most weird defintion, imo) and there prolly are quite a few other views around. What you describe as "dragging through the mud" is not something Id like to be seen as approriate and I dont think that was the intention of OP:

I gave both examples I believe. I wasn't referring to the OP at all. Of course you can use stats to showcase a point, but the line is so thin between insult and ridicule and most times people cross it. That is why I think these threads should be closely monitored and rule enforced. Nothing more, nothing less.

[_Teob_]

I am more than happy to explain and I am sorry if things are unclear.

 

Stat shaming: Using someone's stats, gameplay screenshot/footage to make a derogatory post about said player.

 

But I realise that seems a bit broad so I will give some examples here for clarity:

Stat shaming examples:

1) Someone says that ship X is OP/UP in their opinion. Replying with their stats for that ship to dismiss their opinion absolutely is stat shaming. We all have ships that we do really well in despite the ship itself being terrible and we all have "cursed" ships that everyone praises but we suck in.

2) Someone gives their opinion on a random topic. Replying with their stats to shut them up is stat shaming. Counter the argument itself without going after the poster. If they didn't mention their stats nor should you.

 

Examples of stats being used where it's not stat shaming

1) Someone says that they perform really well/badly in ship X. Replying with their stats to point out that's not the case (in a respectful way) is not stat shaming. By respectful I mean don't say "you are a potato in ship X" but do say "you seem to be performing slightly under expected values in ship X". Don't dismiss their opinion but point out that there are other things at play.

2) Someone says they are losing 9 out of 10 matches. Replying with their stats to point out that they won 50% of their matches and there might be some confirmation bias at work is not stat shaming. Same for the opposite. If someone says they won all their matches, it's not stat shaming to point out that it was not the case.

3) Someone says the last ranked season was super easy. Replying with their stats to point out that they won 70% of their matches and they are a statistical outlier is not stat shaming.

4) Posting someone's stats to praise them for their performance is not stat shaming.

 

Basically if the argument is NOT linked to their performance, don't post their stats. If someone is making an argument about their performance (stats) then using stats to counter said argument is fine. If a player mentions their performance in the first place then of course you are free to discuss it. After all they started the conversation about that topic.

And as a general rule, don't dismiss any opinion based on stats alone.

And we have never ever sanctioned anyone for posting stats in praise of a player. Honestly we could all use a bit more positivity here so feel free to pat each other on the back whenever you feel like.

We cannot cover all cases with rules so some of it does fall under common sense so when you are taking a screen shot of someone's stats, ask yourself if the motivation behind your actions is constructive or if you are just trying to bash someone over the head with their stats to dismiss them. If it's the later we might have a problem.

 

As always feel free to contact me (or other mods) whenever you have questions. I will be keeping an eye on this thread so ping me here if you have additional questions or if you disagree with anything I said.

 

Edit: I forgot one thing that I have seen occasionally. If someone has their stats hidden, going after them because of that is not stat shaming per se but it will get you in trouble most likely. Stuff like "how can I listen to someone who has their stats hidden" constitutes a personal attack and it obviously doesn't have anything to do with their argument.

[GarrusBrutus]

 

And it was on this blessed day that Teob the Mod, enlightened the people of Warships about statshaming. He spoke and his words echoed across the forum and across the playerbase. "Upon that there be no more dispute amongst thee, on the matter of humiliating one another using numbers. Thou shall follow these rules, or forever cursed be thy name. Amen." And the world was back at peace.

[Yedwy]

So basically everything is stat shaming and if we want to see where some guys opinion is coming from and find what we expected we are not allowed to comment on that because its against the rules... Gotcha

[U69_2020]

30 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

some guy that registered for game month ago "to play subs" claims they are under-powered and need buffs because he can only average 10k per match

Hmmm. I have been here for barely 3 weeks, and the only buff I would recommend is a functional deck gun... 

[UnderDuress]

33 minutes ago, Egoleter said:

Would it be possible for you to remain calm and have an actual discussion or do you want to get even more emotional in your battle to allow stat shaming?

What happened to addressing the reasoning instead of personal attacks?