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DataDemon

IFHE is a bad choice! (for CL T8+)

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My Points:
-IFHE is on average not an upgrade, nor even a sidegrade, but even a downgrade and costs 4 captain skills on top (for T8 CL+)
-Real winners and losers of the IFHE rework. In my opinion, the CAs got nerfed!

I agree that this message comes quite late, but I had a break from the game and came back just recently to note this. I am highly convinced that most of the community has this missconception. As most of you, I did watch flamu, LittleWhiteMouse, … and thought myself that IFHE for T7 is screwed (you pen only 31mm with IFHE in up to T9 matches), but starting from T8 CL with IFHE do pen 32mm, therefore IFHE is a nobrainer, right?
I am a 65%WR (Solo) player who plays purely HE-based Cruisers. There are players better around but I am still confident that my gathered information is exactly on point.

My first doubts came with Al Nevsky (180/6=30mm HE pen). Not enough to pen the magical 32mm threshold. so according to the prevalent opinion IFHE needed. Except if you focus on its dominant AP, then you don't really care too much about the HE pen. I got to play the double Nevsky division with an equally skilled player for some games. We were not able to use the AP too much so we did stick to HE 90% of the time, we were side by side. I had IFHE skilled, he did not. So in theory I should by more succesfull, right?
You guessed wrong, his resulting 17% firechance compared to my 10.5% firechance (due to IFHE) easily compensated for my 32mm threshold. 32mm (or 37 if you want to be precise) were still not enough to pen most of the BBs anyway! In fact most of the BBs coming new to the game are beeing advertised not to have 32mm plating in the first place!

My experiment was to play the Kutuzov, a ship where you barely use any AP at all, without IFHE and compare my own results. I compared:
pre    IFHE-rework with      IFHE:  32mm HE pen, 12% Firechance.

post IFHE-rework without IFHE:  30mm HE pen, 15% Firechance    (with IFHE: 37mm pen, 9% Firechance)

I did play 50+ games and I easily got 20k average more damage, aswell as gotten my PR from ~3000 to ~4000! Why you ask?

1.Do you know how many BBs have 32mm plating? And moreover how much of it? Let's assume you get into a T8+ game

-Russian BBs, US BBs, Izumo, Yamato, German BBs, Roma, … all have 19mm superstructure and 38mm+ deck armor. So IFHE won't help you there. Sure, all of these do have 32mm aft/stern, but first of all, have you seen how small of an area they are? For US and Germans basically non-existent! And for the big Yamato- as a light cruiser-  which areas do you target from your comfort-zone? 
-British BBs, French BBs, Amagi, (Alaska,) … you would think you are screwed, but no. 40% of my (30mm HE-pen) shells do still pen! True, it is not as useful as 80-90% (turrets and cit protection does exist), but still useful enough.
-Don't forget that in randoms (at least in current meta EU) players prefer the first category of BBs, exactly for the reason that it has more than 32mm plating. Which is more the reason why we don't need IFHE. In T8+ games I counted 80% BBs from the first category and only 20% from the second. 

2.Pre IFHE-rework you had to skill it to pen enemy cruisers. Now you got the BUFF to pen them for Nothing. In the end it is just a sidegrade as instead of 12% firechance and the ability to wreck French and Brits you have 15% firechance, that is +25%! effecivity against all other BBs (Kremlin,Yamato), but beeing only as good against Brits and French BBs. And, don't forget, you still get to keep your 4 captain points! And against supercruisers like Moskva, Stalin, Petropavlovsk IFHE is a downgrade aswell.

3.Imagine you get lucky and get into a T6-T8 game. You can pen T7 BBs for free and keep the high firechance! Or in case you do play a Worcester, chances are lower to meet an Amagi, a ship where IFHE does benefit you.

 

So my final conclusion is, by ommiting the IFHE, due to the fact that you don't encounter too many BBs on T8+ you can benefit from, you got a free buff for all the light cruisers (152mm/5 rule). Which in term is a 'nerf' to the HE-capabilities for the 203mm-CAs! Which is obviously kinda the opposite effect that WG wanted to achieve by introducing the rework. 203+mm CAs do indeed pen 32mm, but as mentioned they are in the minority, whereas against Kremlins & Co CLs (should they follow this 'guide' and not pick IFHE) simply get much better results.

 

On a sidenote in the end the significant impact of IFHE-rework in my opinion.
-203mm HE got 'nerfed' in comparison to 152mm HE by buffing the factor (1/6 -> 1/5).

-Do NOT take IFHE on 152mm cruisers! Mogami 155m might be an exception since it can pen 38mm with IFHE (US BB deck), still alltogether I consider it as a sidegrade now.
This is valid until the population of 32mm BB platings in the game increases by a large factor (e.g. more Slavas)
-180mm HE is kinda the loser (180/6=30mm < 32mm), but it belongs to the russians so it does not matter

-T6 and T7 have (sadly) to pick IFHE just to be able to reliably pen Cruisers, especially when uptiered. (Imagine a Helena dealing 0 Damage to a Hipper) Helena with IFHE pens 31mm, basically the same as Cleveland without IFHE. If MM would Keep it T6/T7 only it would be fine/fair, but as it is the Impact is, by upgrading from T7->T8 you get twice the firechance (in built T7-IFHE).
-Poor Flint, Atlanta and Colbert (my favourite, and it did not deserve that)

-Smolensk can pen 21mm (exclusivly BB Superstructure) just as the mentioned Kutuzov without IFHE. Therefore, against BBs Smolensk is as effective as the Kutuzov (x2 to be fair). Earlier it could pen Cruisers with IFHE, now it costs too much. Also its armor got reduced and it fears everything that can spot her. That means a Smolensk does not want to be close range fighting, ambushing, but the only way to play her now is exclusivly on range where it can farm BBs only. In the end Smolensk got nerfed for sure (and e.g. Cruisers can push her greatly), but on the impact you just limited her options and it stays and unfair cancer. Fudge Smolensk Players and Fudge Kutuzov retailers :Smile_child:

*I could not find a similar topic, apologies if this is mentioned somewhere already.

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Only ship worth considering IFHE would be Mogami/155, due to already mediocre base fire chance and 155mm caliber means 38mm HE pen with IFHE. But then, due to captain reshuffles I've put 10 pointer on her and with 203mm guns she is more than usable.

 

And then you have premium solution to artificial IFHE problem, known as Mainz and upcoming T7 Ger CL, Munchen:cap_tea:

 

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While i agree in general with you, i dont 100% agree with the HE vs BB stuff.

15 minutes ago, DataDemon said:

I did play 50+ games and I easily got 20k average more damage, aswell as gotten my PR from ~3000 to ~4000! Why you ask? 

1.Do you know how many BBs have 32mm plating? And moreover how much of it? Let's assume you get into a T8+ game 

-Russian BBs, US BBs, Izumo, Yamato, German BBs, Roma, … all have 19mm superstructure and 38mm+ deck armor. So IFHE won't help you there. Sure, all of these do have 32mm aft/stern, but first of all, have you seen how small of an area they are? For US and Germans basically non-existent! And for the big Yamato- as a light cruiser-  which areas do you target from your comfort-zone? 
-British BBs, French BBs, Amagi, (Alaska,) … you would think you are screwed, but no. 40% of my (30mm HE-pen) shells do still pen! True, it is not as useful as 80-90% (turrets and cit protection does exist), but still useful enough.
-Don't forget that in randoms (at least in current meta EU) players prefer the first category of BBs, exactly for the reason that it has more than 32mm plating. Which is more the reason why we don't need IFHE. In T8+ games I counted 80% BBs from the first category and only 20% from the second. 

 

- Saturation is a thing. You dont have to farm long on the superstructure to get half pen damage. Yamato/Izumo have 32mm upper belt, which is an entirely different section, and can be farmed aswell (Izumo even has 32mm at the frontguns IIRC?). Ofc you can ask the question, how well do you hit that on longerranges with those floaty shell arcs from CLs. But at the same time, you also get to shoot Bow-on BBs, which as you said yourself, often do have 32mm bow armor, so you can get pens there aswell.

- Farming fire damage often produces more damage, because the ship survives longer. Doesnt mean its better. Conqueror also has more avg damage than other TX BBs. Ive seen smolensk replays on YT, where the person keeps farming fire damage on BBs, but the BBs actually dont die, so its pretty much useless.

 

25 minutes ago, DataDemon said:

-180mm HE is kinda the loser (180/6=30mm < 32mm), but it belongs to the russians so it does not matter 

I think its stupid that 180mm is essentially worse than 155mm or equal to 152mm guns. It should pen 38mm aswell. And CAs should pen atleast 38mm aswell.

At this point, i dont understand why we need some stupid rule (which differs as they see fit anyway), and instead give every ship/line a specific pen and be done with it. Why does it need to be 1/6 1/5 or 1/4? Ofc they dont want to give certain ships 1/4 pen, because suddenly they could pen like 50mm which they dont want. But if you would assign a fixed value, you could do it and leave a specific threshold out of it.

 

29 minutes ago, DataDemon said:

-Do NOT take IFHE on 152mm cruisers!

Im literally incapable to get permafires, so i rather stick with alpha damage because i have to... i have like 16,17? witherers...

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When you want rely on RNG, do not take IFHE.

When you want more focussed damage and know how to use it, take IFHE.

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8 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

When you want rely on RNG, do not take IFHE.

When you want more focussed damage and know how to use it, take IFHE.

And grab your ankles if you bump into Kremlin/GK with your IFHE CL

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1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

- Saturation is a thing. You dont have to farm long on the superstructure to get half pen damage. Yamato/Izumo have 32mm upper belt, which is an entirely different section, and can be farmed aswell (Izumo even has 32mm at the frontguns IIRC?). Ofc you can ask the question, how well do you hit that on longerranges with those floaty shell arcs from CLs. But at the same time, you also get to shoot Bow-on BBs, which as you said yourself, often do have 32mm bow armor, so you can get pens there aswell.

- Farming fire damage often produces more damage, because the ship survives longer. Doesnt mean its better. Conqueror also has more avg damage than other TX BBs. Ive seen smolensk replays on YT, where the person keeps farming fire damage on BBs, but the BBs actually dont die, so its pretty much useless.

I get your point, and cannot talk for the average gameplay (maybe ist just better for myself, but the average player), but I do activly play for the win rather for the Damage. And I noticed that, playing Kutuzov in T10 randoms, the increased firechance rather interacted positivly with itself. Namely if I set a fire (or 2) on a T10 BB he repairs it. Then I Need 30-45 sec to reset it with IFHE, which he can repair immediatly. Instead without IFHE I set him a fire much sooner. That way I am much more of a threat to him. And I happen to kill him faster (in my own games/my experience).
As for the Saturation, that holds true aswell, but with the saturation your damage numbers go down after your first volleys. Fire Damage, although it is mitigated by heals/flags/skills remains the same throughout the game. Also I would like to state a psychological effect, you can scare of enemies when burning. And to end a really important point is, it is the only way (for a cruiser) to fight the unvulnarable Russian BBs (they have 5 DMC, but if you can manage to burn through them…). Also you can leave the saturation part to your teammates, while you excel in your Job, firestarting.

If you want to be more specific and precise, for a perfect "teamcomposition" it would be bad if no cruisers on your team could pen 32mm, and it would be bad if no cruisers would be good firestarters. As for now, I see more BBs than CA/CLs in the game, and half of the CA/CL are no pure firestarters (even some more AP focussed heavy cruisers). Therefore there is a lot of space (in this current meta) for firestarters, who are beneficial for the team, to be around. Aka the suggestion to omit IFHE would still be the right choice in my opinion

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Atlanta and Colbert without IFHE are fine, just remember you have a 2 key. IFHE was a stupid skill (especially CL vs. CA) and it deserved a nerf, I wouldn't even mind if it went away completely for a better skill.

I still don't understand how 100 mm guns have more pen than Colbert but what is logic anyway.

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55 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

When you want rely on RNG, do not take IFHE.

When you want more focussed damage and know how to use it, take IFHE.

The ironical part is- exactly BECAUSE I know how to use the IFHE skill I assure you that it is (today, on average) a bad option.
At least it is my claim that you can argue against, but only if you have your own arguments, rather than citing CCs and YT. In my opinion, nobody had a 2nd thought and blindly assumed to follow the old guide (IFHE was a nobrainer for me aswell on 152mm). But when IFHE first came out, e.g. Russians were not around and Izumo was still 32mm. But the meta changed

 

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4 minutes ago, Ze_Reckless said:

Atlanta and Colbert without IFHE are fine, just remember you have a 2 key. IFHE was a stupid skill (especially CL vs. CA) and it deserved a nerf, I wouldn't even mind if it went away completely for a better skill.

I still don't understand how 100 mm guns have more pen than Colbert but what is logic anyway.

Soooo......buff Colbert?

please? :Smile_hiding:

@DataDemon I still like IFHE on Worcester because it spits out so many shells, you get fires nonetheless, and the bread and butter of its dmg is HE alpha anyway.

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8 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

eSoooo......buff Colbert?

please? :Smile_hiding:

@DataDemon I still like IFHE on Worcester because it spits out so many shells, you get fires nonetheless, and the bread and butter of its dmg is HE alpha anyway.

Maybe the difference is that as a Worcester you rarely kite and due to the turrets angles you stick at the same spot/Island and try to kill oponent before he gets you? Then true, you need burst damage to kill them faster (also you can target e.g. Yamato bow for best efficiency), and because you are close range you have no troubles to hit them and set fires.

Makes sence to me since I played only kiting ships (with Worcster/DM it is more of a gamble, what happens if enemies lemming the other side :Smile-_tongue:) and then you hit less shells from longer distances on a consistent basis. I did not think about it but you might be right. So firestarting on kiters while focus on alpha damage for campers?

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Interesting analysis.

How relevant is it that for (most) ships with repair party all fire damage is repairable vs 50% of penetration damage is repairable?
Is does the fact that most RP heals a max of 17% ish make this irrelevant?

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15 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Soooo......buff Colbert?

Sure, 2.7 seconds feels so long. :fish_haloween:

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I actually think both work and have gone to the approach of using IFHE on my high tier CLs, but only at the end of the build, so only if I also have DE to balance the loss of fires a bit. So that would be at 18 points. Until then, you do your damage to BBs with fires. That would mean: PT, AR, SI, CE, DE, IFHE, PM as the build order. So far, I I have that on Cleveland, Worcester and Dmitri Donskoi and my damage is a bit higher than without IFHE. But again, both approaches work. Insofar, the rework was succesful. if only they had not shafted the poor mid tier cruisers so badly.

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34 minutes ago, SoothingWhaleSong said:

Interesting analysis.

How relevant is it that for (most) ships with repair party all fire damage is repairable vs 50% of penetration damage is repairable?
Is does the fact that most RP heals a max of 17% ish make this irrelevant?

According to "my" percieved MM in the last 50 games T8-T10
-80% of the BBs you cannot pen with and without IFHE (e.g. small part of Kurfürst, but too small to target [from long distances] for it to be relevant). There you see no change in direct Damage at all, but with IFHE you get many less fires (e.g. 9% vs 15%)
-20% of the BBs where it is relevant (French, Brits) you get no damage except on their superstructure. For my Kutuzov games still 40% pens for the reference. There you get more fires than without IFHE, but this does not compensate the lack of damage you miss

 

So altogether to answer your Question: I do not compare penetration damage vs fire damage, I compare the damage that I potentionally give up by not beeing able to do huge amounts of direct damage to the 20% of BBs, by beeing significantly more usefull towards the other 80% BBs & all CA/CL & DDs.

Pen damage is ofc. much more useful, you just don't have enough targets with the threshold of 32mm anymore.
All of this has nothing to do with the healing potential (remains the same issue with and without IFHE). And nontheless, yes you can heal 1 fire with your heal, but that does mean you won't heal the other damage my team deals to you.
And as for teamplay- a burning enemy cannot go stealth and recover. You actually help your team by lighting the enemy. If you played a BB you know how ofter you would like to disappear and turn out. Can't do that while you on fire since everyone sees your broadside. 

*also a side-effect is that it actually rewards skill by using AP to the best extend (if target is burning use AP!?);
in my games with 19km range I simply changed my target or in cases went stealth and reopened fire after the fire ran out or they turned their guns away. 

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1 hour ago, Ze_Reckless said:

Atlanta and Colbert without IFHE are fine, just remember you have a 2 key. IFHE was a stupid skill (especially CL vs. CA) and it deserved a nerf, I wouldn't even mind if it went away completely for a better skill.

I still don't understand how 100 mm guns have more pen than Colbert but what is logic anyway.

WG wanted to give "CL firepower" and considered AA destroyers to be the best pick for that:cap_book:

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I’ve been saying this since the IFHE/ plating changes came into effect.

 

I use IFHE only on Japanese 100mm equipped destroyers. This is for two reasons:

 

Unlike cruisers, the range of engagement means targeting specific 32mm parts of a ship is fairly easy. At 16km you would probably aim for centre mass.

 

IFHE reduces fire chance by only 2.5%, this. Can be completely negated using DE and I’m one flag.

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10 hours ago, Panocek said:

And grab your ankles if you bump into Kremlin/GK with your IFHE CL

When you bump into them, you are doing something wrong. Kremlin is a problem, no matter what skills you use. GK is not really a problem.

9 hours ago, DataDemon said:

The ironical part is- exactly BECAUSE I know how to use the IFHE skill I assure you that it is (today, on average) a bad option.
At least it is my claim that you can argue against, but only if you have your own arguments, rather than citing CCs and YT. In my opinion, nobody had a 2nd thought and blindly assumed to follow the old guide (IFHE was a nobrainer for me aswell on 152mm). But when IFHE first came out, e.g. Russians were not around and Izumo was still 32mm. But the meta changed

  • IFHE can increase HE pen above significant thresholds, when it does, it can be worth taking it
  • you do more direct damage and are less dependent on RNG
  • direct damage is more controllable damage and gives you better control over an engagement
  • focus fire with more direct damage is more deadly
  • HE focus fire without IFHE is ineffective as the ships have to split up the 4(3) fire areas of the target ship among themselves, the more ships shoot HE at the target, the less effective the increased fire chance becomes
  • HE fire without IFHE shines damagewise when you alone shoot at a big target, but that is hardly effective for the team
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3 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

When you bump into them, you are doing something wrong. Kremlin is a problem, not matter what skills you use. GK is not really a problem.

Unfortunately I've yet to figure out means of changing matchmaking to "not see these two" when playing cruiser with IFHE.

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2 hours ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Soooo......buff Colbert?

please? :Smile_hiding:

Well you know who will also benefit from it...

The smoke devil 😈

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1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

When you bump into them, you are doing something wrong. Kremlin is a problem, not matter what skills you use. GK is not really a problem

Well he meant that you get them on other side not literally bump into them in close range....

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14 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Well you know who will also benefit from it...

The smoke devil 😈

 

Oh snap, you're right. Nevermind then.

 

IdealisticDefenselessInvisiblerail-max-1

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48 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Unfortunately I've yet to figure out means of changing matchmaking to "not see these two" when playing cruiser with IFHE.

There is no need for that. Just keep your distance and focus other targets and avoid bumping into them. Then you are too close...

36 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Well he meant that you get them on other side not literally bump into them in close range....

When you cannot play around a dangerous ship on the other team, you should not play high Tier...

That is the bread&butter of any DD player playing high Tier and when playing CL that can be overmatched, one should know too how that works. It is not like Yamatos or Ohios leave you alone either...

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6 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

When you cannot play around a dangerous ship on the other team, you should not play high Tier...

That is the bread&butter of any DD player playing high Tier and when playing CL that can be overmatched, one should know too how that works. It is not like Yamatos or Ohios leave you alone either...

I do agree with you on that but seems you missed the original point. Whatever, @Panocek was just joking.

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13 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

I do agree with you on that but seems you missed the original point. Whatever, @Panocek was just joking.

He inferred that IFHE CL are without chance when encountering these ships in the game, which is just baloney...

Here some examples:

Spoiler

Sank a GK:

60k on Kremlin without getting sunk:

Sank GK:

Sank GK:

GK removed itself:

Sank GK and did 50k+ damage to Kremlin without getting sunk:

 

 

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