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Srgt_Misfire

Has Wargaming given up with even attempting to balance the game? (part 1?)

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Hello fellow gamer people,

 

I am writing this as I'm more than a little concerned with the current state of the game in general, the direction it appears to be going, and several other concerns regarding things like customer service and transparency. It may end up being a long post and maybe in more than one part, and, just to be clear, these are only MY opinions, you can agree or disagree as you see fit and I welcome constructive comment, however trolling because you haven't had enough attention today will be reported.

 

First, a brief description of myself mainly for insight as to where I'm coming from with all this. I suppose I'm a whale, probably a Blue Whale If I'm going to be honest. Over the years I have given Wargaming a lot of money, thousands most likely, ok not likely, It's a fact, since starting playing tanks nine years ago I have spent?, invested? money, though I'm not going to think about that too much, but I game a lot. I'm also a bit of a Cliche, I'm 52 and live with my parent's, although I'm not In the basement:cap_like:, and am not antisocial, I do have friends and like a drink once or twice a week, but due to circumstances and family health issue's I'm back home and have a lot of free time.  I've played games and built computers for 32 ish years ever since 4mb of ram was a big deal. I'm not an expert on gaming but I have a lot of years In the area.

 

So, on to the meat of the subject, Wargaming, what are they doing, why are they doing it, and are they doing it for us?. Well, and again, my opinion, no, no they are not doing it for us, or if they THINK they are, they are not listening. I'm going to break it down, firstly by game type, then class and at the end I'll touch on the business side of things I suppose.

 

So Game types,

 

Random: I actualy have very few issue's with random, other than camping and skill level's of some players It's not too bad, with a couple of exceptions, but I'll address those In the class section.

 

Co_op: Sorry but shouldn't we rename this DD-oP?, trying to get anywhere with , let's say, a bb Is 90% of the time (random % pulled out of thin air) pointless, by the time you get to engage half the time, the game is over and the Destroyer's have gobbled all the Exp:Smile_facepalm:, not a go at Destroyers, but the Mechanics of the game mean rushing forward and torp'ing is the way to go. How to fix? *&%@ if i know.

Ranked: It's painful, I have seen people defending it, but as a reasonably skilled player who is just not good enough to carry hard I find ranked horribly frustrating. The amount of games in the last sprint I've lost due to players either rushing straight in and being sunk in the first two to three minutes, Going off alone down a flank in a BB....and getting sunk in the first two to three minutes, or sitting in a position that they are unable to make any difference to the game, until team is dead and they are outnumberes etc....... well a lot of you know what I'm trying to say. As of right now, ranked does not reward you as a player for playing the game, it relies on a team effort, and trying to get a lot of the players to work together Is Impossible. I've ranked out then next time never got passed rank 9 etc. Completely Inconsistant.

 

Clan Battles: Borked, CV's, Stalin Rico's everywhere, etc. Only just started playing CB, but first impression's, while ok funwise, I just don't get some WG decisions. So CV's, why am I unimpressed with them in Clan Battles, well they completely take away using the Element of surpise / positioning. CV in game? yup, Flank from an unexpected place/angle to try get an advantage? nope, you were spotted four day's ago by planes that can perma spot you while you can do nothing to mitigate it, now that's a GREAT game design :Smile_sceptic:. So, coal / steel ships, you know I wouldn't give a flying If It wasn't for the simple fact that Wargaming don't even attempt to balance, and I know some of you are going to say I'm wrong, but let me be blunt, IF I'm wrong, why the hell was everyone who had them, using them?, how many other ship's did you see, how many Henri's, Mino's?, Ibuki's?, not many from my experience. While I'm not expecting every ship to be practicle, having only 4 or 5 being the Go To ship's just scream's Imbalance to me. I'd like to know what the % WR of CB's with CV's in was and then have skill level like for like factored in and a nice big bar graph putting out as well. I don't have issue with CV's being in game(See class DD's later for further comment), but honestly think they take too much away when It come to Clan battles.

 

Sceanrio: no problems other than they should reset rewards each cycle of each scenario.

 

So Class next I guess:

 

Battleships: At some point Wargaming were going on about trying to get BB's to be more active in the game, everyone was sat at the back, hiding behing Islands and sniping, Battleship brawling was only happening late game when pretty much everything else was dead or one team was done for and out of options. Well, that hasn't worked has it. BB's now camp like they forgot to weigh anchor, and to be honest I can't really blame them. New ships introduced make It pretty much suicide to push early to mid game (though I personally do try now and then for lol's), Smolensk, Worcester, Halland etc. have pretty much turned the game into a campfest, which Is not as fun, also certain BB's just seem to be inferior to others due to power creep, or unique flavour (Thunderer armour / Citadel anyone).

 

Cruisers: I think they are probably best class in game at moment, they do pretty much everything at least to a decent degree, and some of them excel in certain areas. Want a Denial ship, Smol, Worcester etc. AA Des, Salem, Utility, Stalin, Des, Moskva, an answer to every problem lies somewhere In one of the MANY cruisers and with the new lines we have even more to choose from. They can wreck BB's, hunt destroyer's, provide AA, I can't think of anything that they are bad at, with a few expcetions pertaining to specific cruisers. The only issue I have with them Is again that some just seem too powerful when compared to others of same tier.

 

CV's: Currently I think they are the equivalent of Arty in World Of Tanks, I don't think Wargaming truly know what to do with them, got close(ish) to having them balanced and then gave up. Spotting Mechanic Is just bad, being perma spotted and not being able to do anything about It Is just a bad Idea and takes so much away from the game as far as strategy is concerned. I think AA on some ships needs BUFFING (yes, I said it, so sue me) I also think that Ships detection range from the air should be equal to the LR AA umbrella of the ship being spotted and that ships should be able to detect the plane's at Maz AA range, so spotting has some cost. I also thin MM needs looking at, If you have ever been a bottom tier DD and had to face a CV two tiers above you, well yeah that's fun, sure you can stay at the back and hide with the cruisers / bb's, but isn't that the complete opposite of a DD's purpose (generally, yeah we have exceptions). I played a French DD the other day as an experiment for several games, no smoke and meh AA, every time I had a CV in game, well, It was bad, and If the CV was two tiers higher, It was bad, but not for long....:cap_hmm:

 

DD: Over taxed and soon even more so. CV's are a nightmare, Radar is everywhere, Hydro, sub's on the way (oh lord I hope not) I think, again with exceptions, that DD'ss are the hardest ship to play at the moment and when/If Sub's come then, well I don't know, will people just stop playing them?. Teams want you to spot or cap but at the moemnt your life expectancy a lot of the time Is pretty short if you even attempt, it. "Cap C" ok I'll go cap C, oh damn, planes incoming, no problem, I'll smoke up he will never see me :Smile_playing:, Oh damn, radar from a cruiser 12k away, behind an island....with a Smolensk , oh and look, those rocket planes are coming back, It will be ok, happy thoughts, happy thoughts, happ..."Return to Port?" ho hum.

 

Subs: not played them, don't want them, special game mode please thanks. From what I have seen on YT etc at the moment, they are nowhere near balanced. I am still trying to figure out as of now what a BB is suposed to do In a one on one with a Sub, Raise a white flag?.

 

My answers to some of the problems that >I SEE< : I'd get rid of Radar and bring a little tension back to the game, "what's behind this Island?, I don't know, should I go look????? ewwwww what to do!!!", give more ships Hydro maybe to counter lack of radar, get rid of proximity spotting, above changes to CV spotting, Change MM so dd's are not uptiered with CV's two levels higher and deleted in first couple of minutes (or) Change rocket dispersion V DD's maybe, make them harder to hit, take cv's out of comp gaming. I would also like to see WG go back and balance ALL ships so they all serve a purpose, probably not realistic but hey. Zao, Henri, Mino to some extent are under played, anyone wonder why. Possibly look at rewarding active play and penalties for innactive play. Stop releasing ships that skew balance badly or are a bit silly in a specific are.

 

 

Wargaming:

 

Firstly, they are a business, they are not here because they love you, they are here to make money, and I am fine with that. What I'm not fine Is the downright vile methods they use to get that money. Loot box gambling In the Armoury for progression is just BAD and a horrible money grab, the whole PR fiasco was offensive and again IMHO an intentional money grab by WG, I truly beleive If the stink that was created regarding It hadn't occured they would have carried on with the concept. The current Dock Isn't as bad, In fact I look at It as simply a way to get a discount on a ship If I want to. 

I don't mind things like the Xmas Box's got to say, they are far enough away from the game itself to be out of mind, but something that you are actively taking part in via missions... another story. Premium ships, the prices are ridiculus, I have never seen a comment from WG regarding the pricing they use, but as hundreds have said before me, having a single in game ship costing the same as  AAA title, and in some cases a couple of AAA titles, Is greedy, and let's be honest, they seem to knock them out at a insane rate, what is it, when you include reskins? One a week, two?. And yet how often do we see a new maps released?, game modes?. Yes they give stuff away, but a fair few have been pretty awful, others some are older ships that many people may have already bought...they ain't stupid that's for sure.

 

I don't know If they even take note of feedback, LWM is probably the most level headed and does some pretty amazing and detailed reviews and has commented a lot on what she thinks a particular ship may need, both buff or nerf to be a good, balanced ship but do WG listen? do they care? do they try to give us, the gamers what we want or is it more of a case of they give us what they SAY we want, I don't know, I am starting to come around to the idea that a lot of it is just hot air and smoke.

 

When I first started playing, the game was totaly different, far more balanced and after the way Tanks has gone downhill, a breath of fresh air, but now I'm starting to think that that was just the hooks going In before they reverted back to same old same old. I hope I'm wrong, the game isn't broke beyond repair, it just needs a little nudge here and there.

 

Oh yeah, Wargaming, out of interest, you know those server transfers you promised NA to EU for world of tanks, like over two years ago, you know, the subject you point blank refuse to acknowledge on your forums any more in World of Tanks? well as you refuse to respond on THOSE forums how about someone reach out to them from here and find out WTF is going on? you now, customer service, valued customers, transparency, Integrity, honesty and so on??, I mean I know Wargaming didn't do a complete U turn and just not tell the customers, that would be a completely shameful way to treat the player base wouldn't it?  just asking:Smile_popcorn:

 

anyway, probably a metric tonne of spelling mistakes and punctuation error's and trolls have probably smelled blood and are crawling out from under the bridges, but I'm trying.

 

Srgt_Misfire

Deep Impact EU

 

"I may be old n slow kid, but I still sunk you"

 

 

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I think an easy first step in the right direction would be to make AA actually work. At the moment, it's just way too weak.

 

A squadron can fly through multiple overlapping AA fields of priority sector fire and still get a clean drop off. It really is like arty in WOT, the ability to strike with impunity and no risk to themselves for the most part, often right into the late game. A squadron flying in on an attack run through a focused priority sector AA defence shouldn't be able to get their attack off, it rewards brainless play and damages the player experience because your defensive guns seem to have to little to no mitigating power to stop the strike.

 

I'm interested to see how easy it will be to "just dodge" the new German CV AP bombs when you're in a heavy cruiser.

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33 minutes ago, Srgt_Misfire said:

...

 

Battleships: At some point Wargaming were going on about trying to get BB's to be more active in the game, everyone was sat at the back, hiding behing Islands and sniping, Battleship brawling was only happening late game when pretty much everything else was dead or one team was done for and out of options. Well, that hasn't worked has it. BB's now camp like they forgot to weigh anchor, and to be honest I can't really blame them. New ships introduced make It pretty much suicide to push early to mid game (though I personally do try now and then for lol's), Smolensk, Worcester, Halland etc. have pretty much turned the game into a campfest, which Is not as fun, also certain BB's just seem to be inferior to others due to power creep, or unique flavour (Thunderer armour / Citadel anyone).

...

 

My answers to some of the problems that >I SEE< : I'd get rid of Radar and bring a little tension back to the game, "what's behind this Island?, I don't know, should I go look????? ewwwww what to do!!!", give more ships Hydro maybe to counter lack of radar, get rid of proximity spotting, above changes to CV spotting, Change MM so dd's are not uptiered with CV's two levels higher and deleted in first couple of minutes (or) Change rocket dispersion V DD's maybe, make them harder to hit, take cv's out of comp gaming. I would also like to see WG go back and balance ALL ships so they all serve a purpose, probably not realistic but hey. Zao, Henri, Mino to some extent are under played, anyone wonder why. Possibly look at rewarding active play and penalties for innactive play. Stop releasing ships that skew balance badly or are a bit silly in a specific are.

...

You complain about camping and want to remove radar?

That is just another excuse that BB will not move forward.

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How so?, Radar, and again my opinion, is only really used against destroyers, and while I will give you a point on the fact that It would give destroyers more freedom to play the map, with a little thought on how you are playing, a smidgen of map awareness and using WAS &D, I don't find destroyers overly daunting V Battleships. Now I'm not saying DD's can't make your day go south quickly, they can, but then every class has some kind of counter, Cruisers get deleted by BB's all the time, DD's get hammered by Cruiser's all the time and so on, but I don't find myself getting deleted with any frequency by DD's, yes, It does happen, but not often. Also when I am playing a BB and can get my team to actually support me with a cruiser or two and maybe god forbid another BB, destroyers tend to get out of the way pretty damn quickly.

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If you posted for the First Time after more than 11.000 games you must be quite worried.

I don't know how often you follow this forum, but most people here share your same thoughts about balance.

He spam is a huge problem

Russian ships are often overpowered

Destroyers need a lot of skill cause they get easily spotted by planes and there are too many radars

Carrier rework was a mess

Subs have the potential to kill the game, since battleships and most cruisers can't even damage them.

Unfortunately, WG seems to ignore 90% of the complains, and only listen to profits. If profits go down, cause of some choice, they will change it for sure. But if is not like that...

Well, i made up my mind and trying to enjoy the game as long is fun.

If submarines will be added to random battles, i will uninstall it.

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Just want to point out a few things which i heavily disagree with:

 

31 minutes ago, Srgt_Misfire said:

New ships introduced make It pretty much suicide to push early to mid game

Why should this actually be a thing? Why should BBs be able to push in against a superior force and win/survive or ??? (serious question, not sure what the outcome should be). I mean, you can try pushing in with a DD/CA/CV, see how long you survive compared to a BB.

If Cruisers wouldnt stop a pushing BB with HE fire, for sure a DD should do it. Seems to me, that they arent necessary capable of doing it, since people blame Cruisers as the pushing-barrier. Which is interesting, because DDs should counter BBs?

And then i disagree with being able to push midgame, it entirely depends on the situations. Hell, you can push early game through your flank if the enemy is weak on your flank. Its still best to have a BB upfront, as there is no reason for any ship to give ground to a pushing Cruiser (bar DDs).

The pushing order is BB>Cruiser>DD. A DD is simply incapable of stopping a push, as it has no HP and no armor.

 

38 minutes ago, Srgt_Misfire said:

They can wreck BB's, hunt destroyer's, provide AA,

1. Many of them cant do it alone. The others that can do, usually need skill to be able to do it (or lack of skill on the BB part). Either way, it takes so long that the BB actually can run away and heal up.

2. Most cant, as you need Radar

3. BBs tend to have equal (or even better) AA, and if we take fighter planes into consideration, they definetely have the best AA available.

 

42 minutes ago, Srgt_Misfire said:

Zao, Henri, Mino to some extent are under played, anyone wonder why.

You cant force people to play all ships. If they are happy with what they got, what you gonna do? F.e. Hindenburg is overrepresented on EU server because germany is here, and Hindenburg is a german ship. Zao and Henri pretty much fill the same role, but they keep playing Hindenburg. Zao isnt underplayed imo.

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20200613/eu_2month/average_ship.html

almost 900 players with 65000 battles last 2 months. Mino is close, only Henri is lacking. Why the french cruisers are so uninteresting for the playerbase - dont ask me. But Henri got nerfed not long ago, and most people made a huge outcry over it, which wasnt justified. Henri was superior open water gunboat Cruiser, and it still has the better firepower compared to the others (maybe except Venezia).

Smolensk is clearly number 1 (having a quick look). Let them play it, they think its some kinda OP p2w ship, while in reality, its not. Doesnt even have 49% WR anymore last 2 months. It has 0 utility, it is good at one thing only: Sitting in smoke, farming BBs. Well, doesnt win games btw, but people see 300k+ vids on YT and fantasize how they will do that aswell (if they ever), and many of those 300k games are even losses, becuase its useless damage farming.

 

To me, most TX Cruisers are viable. The biggest clash right now for me is Hindenburg vs Henri. Hindenburg is a jack of all trades, and these suffer nowadays. You want specialized ships, which excel in certain areas. Henri does that better. Venezia aswell. Zao atleast has very good concealment and long torp range, which is a bit more unique than the others.

Radar Mino is one of the most unique ships in the game (could be said about smoke mino too, but not that special maybe). DM is always a solid pick, and the new russians arent bad either. Wont include freemiums, as they skew the picture, by having favourable economy boni. That could be one reason people prefer to play those aswell. Playing TX with non-unicum stats costs money, most people cant maintain that. They can with freemiums.

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58 minutes ago, Srgt_Misfire said:

Scenario: no problems other than they should reset rewards each cycle of each scenario.

 

Hoo boy, there's plenty more to say here. Continued AI problems (in Raptor Rescue for one it's a fairly regularly-reported occurrence that the friendly bots will throw the game, even if all the enemies are dead, due to broken pathfinding), Ops that were withdrawn from play ages ago that WG have officially stated will not be coming back in the foreseeable future, lack of variety (only five scenarios is a joke for any online multiplayer game in this day and age before taking into account that at least two of them can be entirely unwinnable due to sheer random chance), lack of choice in the tiers playable (all T6 apart from Narai) and the fact that WG have already stated that they don't consider Ops to be worth their time maintaining as a game mode. Then there's the recent economic reward nerfs, the lack of inclusion in Combat Missions...

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4 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Just want to point out a few things which i heavily disagree with:

 

Why should this actually be a thing? Why should BBs be able to push in against a superior force and win/survive or ??? (serious question, not sure what the outcome should be). I mean, you can try pushing in with a DD/CA/CV, see how long you survive compared to a BB.

If Cruisers wouldnt stop a pushing BB with HE fire, for sure a DD should do it. Seems to me, that they arent necessary capable of doing it, since people blame Cruisers as the pushing-barrier. Which is interesting, because DDs should counter BBs?

And then i disagree with being able to push midgame, it entirely depends on the situations. Hell, you can push early game through your flank if the enemy is weak on your flank. Its still best to have a BB upfront, as there is no reason for any ship to give ground to a pushing Cruiser (bar DDs).

The pushing order is BB>Cruiser>DD. A DD is simply incapable of stopping a push, as it has no HP and no armor.

 

1. Many of them cant do it alone. The others that can do, usually need skill to be able to do it (or lack of skill on the BB part). Either way, it takes so long that the BB actually can run away and heal up.

2. Most cant, as you need Radar

3. BBs tend to have equal (or even better) AA, and if we take fighter planes into consideration, they definetely have the best AA available.

 

You cant force people to play all ships. If they are happy with what they got, what you gonna do? F.e. Hindenburg is overrepresented on EU server because germany is here, and Hindenburg is a german ship. Zao and Henri pretty much fill the same role, but they keep playing Hindenburg. Zao isnt underplayed imo.

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20200613/eu_2month/average_ship.html

almost 900 players with 65000 battles last 2 months. Mino is close, only Henri is lacking. Why the french cruisers are so uninteresting for the playerbase - dont ask me. But Henri got nerfed not long ago, and most people made a huge outcry over it, which wasnt justified. Henri was superior open water gunboat Cruiser, and it still has the better firepower compared to the others (maybe except Venezia).

Smolensk is clearly number 1 (having a quick look). Let them play it, they think its some kinda OP p2w ship, while in reality, its not. Doesnt even have 49% WR anymore last 2 months. It has 0 utility, it is good at one thing only: Sitting in smoke, farming BBs. Well, doesnt win games btw, but people see 300k+ vids on YT and fantasize how they will do that aswell (if they ever), and many of those 300k games are even losses, becuase its useless damage farming.

 

To me, most TX Cruisers are viable. The biggest clash right now for me is Hindenburg vs Henri. Hindenburg is a jack of all trades, and these suffer nowadays. You want specialized ships, which excel in certain areas. Henri does that better. Venezia aswell. Zao atleast has very good concealment and long torp range, which is a bit more unique than the others.

Radar Mino is one of the most unique ships in the game (could be said about smoke mino too, but not that special maybe). DM is always a solid pick, and the new russians arent bad either. Wont include freemiums, as they skew the picture, by having favourable economy boni. That could be one reason people prefer to play those aswell. Playing TX with non-unicum stats costs money, most people cant maintain that. They can with freemiums.

Interesting points, however regarding pushing early / mid game, I wasn't suggesting pushing Solo, I was refering to pushing along with the cruisers and dd's not yolo'ing, though I can see why you would have interpreted it a such, and, again my opinion, it would be cruiser/s with a BB pushing in close support, with maybe a DD flexing on flanks, but of course that depends on a team playing as such, but when I have had teams that have played like this, the results are usually good. I also don't think It should be a case of pushing and "Winning", many many times I have pushed and died, but have done enough to make a difference In the Game, the other day I pushed In the meme Kurfurst, I had a Alaska a Bismarck a dd that I forget and If I recall it was a Neptune all came with me, we died, all of us, we sank two ships, A Yammy and a Stalingrad that was it, but you know what, we did a LOT of damage to the other ships, we pushed several out of postition and they ended up getting broadsided by the rest of the team, and more importantly, IT WAS A BLOODY LAUGH, seriously, me, the Alaska, and the guy in the DD, was chatting away for the rest of the game laughing at how mad it was, and, we won.

 

As Far as wrecking BB's, don't agree with you, I kited and have harrassed to death BB's In pretty much all the cruisers I play, with some exceptions, everything from British Light cruisers through to Russian one's, I've kited in Worcester, Des etc. OPutright brawled in Mosk, bum rushed in Hindenburg, Open water cooked in Bayard etc, don't get me wrong, those BB shells hurt and yeah I've been thrashed on many an occasion, but on average, no.

 

I don't understamd the comment about DD's not being able to stop a Push, I feel that, as long as they don't blow torp's at one go and are left with huge reload, that dd's are more than able.

 

Fighter planes, maybe, if they worked, would be of some use. Right now I watch them fly around in a circle doing nothing, with CV planes repeatedly flying through the coverrage they provide without ever being engaged, they are garbage, again, IMHO, and need fixing to be worthwhile.

 

Not sure where you are going regarding BB AA being best, I can't argue that point, but whatever happened to cruiser AA being the best, and what happened to AA specific cruisers? (Atlanta anyone)

 

No we can't make people play X ship, that's not the point, the point I'm trying to make is why are they not playing them, if people are playing X ship instead of Y, what information can we take from that, me? I'd take that one ship is better than the other for whatever reason (easier to play, less risk of damage to ship, longer range, whatever) and that is why most play it, which brings me back to balance of the ships that are "under played", they are in that situation for a reason.

 

I love the Mino, one of my most fave ships in game, BUT it's not something that I'd take into a competition of any kind simply because it get's deleted far too often and suffers In a game where tanking or agression is required, In random it's a lot more forgiving but I think it's Citadel still puts a lot of....lesser skilled? players off.

 

I can't comment on TX finance, as I said, Whale, big one, I have something like 120 premiums and usually have premium time though that's going to be changing.

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26 minutes ago, NobleSauvage said:

Hoo boy, there's plenty more to say here. Continued AI problems (in Raptor Rescue for one it's a fairly regularly-reported occurrence that the friendly bots will throw the game, even if all the enemies are dead, due to broken pathfinding), Ops that were withdrawn from play ages ago that WG have officially stated will not be coming back in the foreseeable future, lack of variety (only five scenarios is a joke for any online multiplayer game in this day and age before taking into account that at least two of them can be entirely unwinnable due to sheer random chance), lack of choice in the tiers playable (all T6 apart from Narai) and the fact that WG have already stated that they don't consider Ops to be worth their time maintaining as a game mode. Then there's the recent economic reward nerfs, the lack of inclusion in Combat Missions...

OK, agree with the Tier thing, good point never occured to me to be honest, would be great if they opened that up scaled for all tiers maybe, or at least a few more.

Not sure about Raptor bug, i'll have to you tube that

Economic nerfs?

Combat Missions I'm not OVERLY worried about, I am guessing that it's a risk v reward thing, I know that some missions / campaigns are completable in Scenario and co op but I'm guessing they don't want everyone completing them In what they consider a method that is easier.

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1 hour ago, Srgt_Misfire said:

CV's: Currently I think they are the equivalent of Arty in World Of Tanks, I don't think Wargaming truly know what to do with them, got close(ish) to having them balanced and then gave up. Spotting Mechanic Is just bad, being perma spotted and not being able to do anything about It Is just a bad Idea and takes so much away from the game as far as strategy is concerned. I think AA on some ships needs BUFFING (yes, I said it, so sue me) I also think that Ships detection range from the air should be equal to the LR AA umbrella of the ship being spotted and that ships should be able to detect the plane's at Maz AA range, so spotting has some cost. I also thin MM needs looking at, If you have ever been a bottom tier DD and had to face a CV two tiers above you, well yeah that's fun, sure you can stay at the back and hide with the cruisers / bb's, but isn't that the complete opposite of a DD's purpose (generally, yeah we have exceptions). I played a French DD the other day as an experiment for several games, no smoke and meh AA, every time I had a CV in game, well, It was bad, and If the CV was two tiers higher, It was bad, but not for long...

 

CVs are far worse than Arty in WoT, far far worse. The difference is that arty cant spot for themselves and you can also stay arty safe in WoT by sitting next to a building or a mountain where you know they dont have angles.

In WoWs you cant stay safe from the planes, nowhere on the map. The only thing you can do is to try and make yourself a less viable target so the CV will go for someone else.

 

Now Ive been very careful with how I express myself concerning CVs, because I do want to have them in the game. I think they are an important part of naval warfare and I would be sad to miss the opportunity to play these ships. However I think they are impossible to balance so that everyone feels its fair. The problem is and Ive said this from the start, they are either too powerful or too weak, the middleground is impossible and I will explain why.

If AA is so strong that you can completely defend yourself, either by defensive fire or by pure AA power alone. Even maybe a fighter plane, or by sitting next to someone else. Or maybe just positioning, so that they cant strike you, be it anything. Then the CV is useless, he cant strike anyone or anything at any point and thus cant do any damage. Only the bad players who dont know what theyre doing will be strikable and that wont win games, or be fun in the long run.

The only version where a CV has counterplay is to have either manual AA that you need to aim, or by reverting the rework back to the old system. I know in practice it was more unfair and I honestly dont want it back, but the difference was that the enemy CV was your main enemy, the enemy that if he was good enough would prevent you from striking enemy ships and vice versa. As it is now the CV doesnt have an enemy, at all.

 

1 hour ago, Srgt_Misfire said:

DD: Over taxed and soon even more so. CV's are a nightmare, Radar is everywhere, Hydro, sub's on the way (oh lord I hope not) I think, again with exceptions, that DD'ss are the hardest ship to play at the moment and when/If Sub's come then, well I don't know, will people just stop playing them?. Teams want you to spot or cap but at the moemnt your life expectancy a lot of the time Is pretty short if you even attempt, it. "Cap C" ok I'll go cap C, oh damn, planes incoming, no problem, I'll smoke up he will never see me :Smile_playing:, Oh damn, radar from a cruiser 12k away, behind an island....with a Smolensk , oh and look, those rocket planes are coming back, It will be ok, happy thoughts, happy thoughts, happ..."Return to Port?" ho hum.

 

Completely agree. DDs is the class I play most of by far nowadays thou and I honestly dont really know why. I still perform well with them, perhaps even better than I used to. Maybe its because the average DD player is so extremely poor nowadays that the competition is lower I dont know.

Rocketplanes and 12 km radar still needs to get reworked. Rocketplanes for obvious reasons (or planes in general). 12 km radar is too long, you cant possibly counter it, you need to constantly be aware of where the enemy radarcruisers are and constantly be afraid, constantly not dare to push in, constantly have a mountain on the side that you can duck in towards if you dont know where the radars are. 

The fix? Nullify rocketplane damage. Make it not do any hull damage at all, zero, but make it break modules, torpedotubes, turrets, AA mounts etc. Same on BBs and Cruisers, use rocketplanes to weaken enemy ships defense and not do damage. At the same time, as Ive said before. REMOVE CV SPOTTING FOR THE TEAM. I dont know why this is so impossibly difficiult to implement. It would fix so many things. Make the CV spotting for the CV alone and only make it show up on the minimap for the team.

Concerning radar, make radar not go throu islands, and then thats also fixed.

 

 

Other than that, I dont really think HE spam is an issue. I also dont really think BBs not pushing in is an issue in general. Yes sometimes we see extremely passive players but in general I dont really think BBs have much of an issue.

I actualy dont know why people seem to assume that BBs are supposed to lead the charge? This was never the case in real life, BBs were always furthest back (except for CVs). They were the most valuable, expensive and the most powerful ships. They also had the longest range artillery. DDs and DD escorts always lead the charge, and so are they in this game.

Maybe because BBs have the highest hp pool and the most powerful heals (in most cases). Yes I agree, but it still doesnt mean theyre built for brawling. Theyre built for taking damage but not at what range. In real life BBs are actualy mainly built for taking on other BBs, at range. So I think BB balance is fine as it is.

 

In short. Remove CV spotting for the team and make it CV only. Rework rocketplanes. Make AA manual. Rework radar, either by reducing range, reducing duration or make the proper fix and make it not go throu islands. Some smaller things Id also change would be to reduce concealment on all DDs tier 7 and below so their concealment can compete with getting uptiered. I would also give all cruisers in the game a heal and then I would reduce the range on most cruisers. I honestly dont think cruiser range should be more than 17 km. Cruisers should use concealment and geography to better pick engagements instead of just spamming from range.

 

But all of this is futile because WG do not care or listen. They do not read this, or take it into consideration. They do not admit there are issues.

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41 minutes ago, Srgt_Misfire said:

Interesting points, however regarding pushing early / mid game, I wasn't suggesting pushing Solo, I was refering to pushing along with the cruisers and dd's not yolo'ing, though I can see why you would have interpreted it a such, and, again my opinion, it would be cruiser/s with a BB pushing in close support, with maybe a DD flexing on flanks, but of course that depends on a team playing as such, but when I have had teams that have played like this, the results are usually good. I also don't think It should be a case of pushing and "Winning", many many times I have pushed and died, but have done enough to make a difference In the Game, the other day I pushed In the meme Kurfurst, I had a Alaska a Bismarck a dd that I forget and If I recall it was a Neptune all came with me, we died, all of us, we sank two ships, A Yammy and a Stalingrad that was it, but you know what, we did a LOT of damage to the other ships, we pushed several out of postition and they ended up getting broadsided by the rest of the team, and more importantly, IT WAS A BLOODY LAUGH, seriously, me, the Alaska, and the guy in the DD, was chatting away for the rest of the game laughing at how mad it was, and, we won.

But isnt that more a playerbase issue than an issue with BBs? As you say yourself, if the BB has backup, itll work. And with that i agree, ive done so myself. And i have no problem sacrificing myself for a win when playing BB.

 

41 minutes ago, Srgt_Misfire said:

As Far as wrecking BB's, don't agree with you, I kited and have harrassed to death BB's In pretty much all the cruisers I play, with some exceptions, everything from British Light cruisers through to Russian one's, I've kited in Worcester, Des etc. OPutright brawled in Mosk, bum rushed in Hindenburg, Open water cooked in Bayard etc, don't get me wrong, those BB shells hurt and yeah I've been thrashed on many an occasion, but on average, no.

But that also depends on skill difference between you and the BB player. As you said yourself, you also have been killed at times. So both does happen. The biggest problem for me is, that BBs have a tendency to fail at closerange. Thats something i personaly dont like. But i think if you can take half a cruiser or more on 20+km, it seems to be "balanced". Cant have both imo.

 

41 minutes ago, Srgt_Misfire said:

I don't understamd the comment about DD's not being able to stop a Push, I feel that, as long as they don't blow torp's at one go and are left with huge reload, that dd's are more than able.

Yesterday i played alsace and pushed a ChungMu/Östergötland and a JB. Ask @Saltface, he was there. I didnt take any torp by faking turns several times. And killed the Chungmu in the process. Unless the DD gets a perfect torpvolley, he wont stop a BB from getting what it wants, f.e. an objective. He has to make room, otherwise he gets spotted.

 

41 minutes ago, Srgt_Misfire said:

Fighter planes, maybe, if they worked, would be of some use. Right now I watch them fly around in a circle doing nothing, with CV planes repeatedly flying through the coverrage they provide without ever being engaged, they are garbage, again, IMHO, and need fixing to be worthwhile.

Not sure where you are going regarding BB AA being best, I can't argue that point, but whatever happened to cruiser AA being the best, and what happened to AA specific cruisers? (Atlanta anyone)

Atlanta AA is laughable at best right now. Ill summone @El2aZeR who knows all that AA stuff better than me. He is probably the best CV player, and knows all that stuff in and out, so i trust him on that.

 

41 minutes ago, Srgt_Misfire said:

No we can't make people play X ship, that's not the point, the point I'm trying to make is why are they not playing them, if people are playing X ship instead of Y, what information can we take from that, me? I'd take that one ship is better than the other for whatever reason (easier to play, less risk of damage to ship, longer range, whatever) and that is why most play it, which brings me back to balance of the ships that are "under played", they are in that situation for a reason.

I can't comment on TX finance, as I said, Whale, big one, I have something like 120 premiums and usually have premium time though that's going to be changing.

Well, as i said, that can have difference reasons.

F.e. Smolensk is easy to play. And its a freemium, even if you do badly, you wont lose credits. Compared to doing badly in a Techtree ship, which usually costs you money. Atleast when you dont run premium account.

German ships are played more on EU, as i said, because german playerbase is the largest. Other servers paint different pictures.

French Cruisers were never popular, dont ask me why. To me, they are extremely strong from T8-10. Maybe its a skill issue, or people dont like them on lowertiers - no idea.

 

41 minutes ago, Srgt_Misfire said:

I love the Mino, one of my most fave ships in game, BUT it's not something that I'd take into a competition of any kind simply because it get's deleted far too often and suffers In a game where tanking or agression is required, In random it's a lot more forgiving but I think it's Citadel still puts a lot of....lesser skilled? players off.

 

Then enjoy :cap_haloween:

Spoiler

 

 

Ive played 2 seasons radar Mino (not the last, because CV [edited]), and ive played TX Clanbrawl Radar (smoke when CVs were involved) Mino aswell. Next saturday is Clanbrawl again, and ill play Radar Mino.

The thing is, it has an absurdly high skill floor and ceiling. But if you can harvest that potential, its one of the strongest ships around. Thats the reason, why Mino is an unpopular choice for competetitve: its easier to be good in other ships, the effort and skill needed is very high, to get more out of it.

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15 minutes ago, Floofz said:

 

CVs are far worse than Arty in WoT, far far worse. The difference is that arty cant spot for themselves and you can also stay arty safe in WoT by sitting next to a building or a mountain where you know they dont have angles.

In WoWs you cant stay safe from the planes, nowhere on the map. The only thing you can do is to try and make yourself a less viable target so the CV will go for someone else.

 

Now Ive been very careful with how I express myself concerning CVs, because I do want to have them in the game. I think they are an important part of naval warfare and I would be sad to miss the opportunity to play these ships. However I think they are impossible to balance so that everyone feels its fair. The problem is and Ive said this from the start, they are either too powerful or too weak, the middleground is impossible and I will explain why.

If AA is so strong that you can completely defend yourself, either by defensive fire or by pure AA power alone. Even maybe a fighter plane, or by sitting next to someone else. Or maybe just positioning, so that they cant strike you, be it anything. Then the CV is useless, he cant strike anyone or anything at any point and thus cant do any damage. Only the bad players who dont know what theyre doing will be strikable and that wont win games, or be fun in the long run.

The only version where a CV has counterplay is to have either manual AA that you need to aim, or by reverting the rework back to the old system. I know in practice it was more unfair and I honestly dont want it back, but the difference was that the enemy CV was your main enemy, the enemy that if he was good enough would prevent you from striking enemy ships and vice versa. As it is now the CV doesnt have an enemy, at all.

 

 

Completely agree. DDs is the class I play most of by far nowadays thou and I honestly dont really know why. I still perform well with them, perhaps even better than I used to. Maybe its because the average DD player is so extremely poor nowadays that the competition is lower I dont know.

Rocketplanes and 12 km radar still needs to get reworked. Rocketplanes for obvious reasons (or planes in general). 12 km radar is too long, you cant possibly counter it, you need to constantly be aware of where the enemy radarcruisers are and constantly be afraid, constantly not dare to push in, constantly have a mountain on the side that you can duck in towards if you dont know where the radars are. 

The fix? Nullify rocketplane damage. Make it not do any hull damage at all, zero, but make it break modules, torpedotubes, turrets, AA mounts etc. Same on BBs and Cruisers, use rocketplanes to weaken enemy ships defense and not do damage. At the same time, as Ive said before. REMOVE CV SPOTTING FOR THE TEAM. I dont know why this is so impossibly difficiult to implement. It would fix so many things. Make the CV spotting for the CV alone and only make it show up on the minimap for the team.

Concerning radar, make radar not go throu islands, and then thats also fixed.

 

 

Other than that, I dont really think HE spam is an issue. I also dont really think BBs not pushing in is an issue in general. Yes sometimes we see extremely passive players but in general I dont really think BBs have much of an issue.

I actualy dont know why people seem to assume that BBs are supposed to lead the charge? This was never the case in real life, BBs were always furthest back (except for CVs). They were the most valuable, expensive and the most powerful ships. They also had the longest range artillery. DDs and DD escorts always lead the charge, and so are they in this game.

Maybe because BBs have the highest hp pool and the most powerful heals (in most cases). Yes I agree, but it still doesnt mean theyre built for brawling. Theyre built for taking damage but not at what range. In real life BBs are actualy mainly built for taking on other BBs, at range. So I think BB balance is fine as it is.

 

In short. Remove CV spotting for the team and make it CV only. Rework rocketplanes. Make AA manual. Rework radar, either by reducing range, reducing duration or make the proper fix and make it not go throu islands. Some smaller things Id also change would be to reduce concealment on all DDs tier 7 and below so their concealment can compete with getting uptiered. I would also give all cruisers in the game a heal and then I would reduce the range on most cruisers. I honestly dont think cruiser range should be more than 17 km. Cruisers should use concealment and geography to better pick engagements instead of just spamming from range.

 

But all of this is futile because WG do not care or listen. They do not read this, or take it into consideration. They do not admit there are issues.

Only commenting to the BB pushing part, again, my first Initial post was unclear, I was refering to the fact that BB's pushing with the team, you know, when the cruisers /dd's are trying to and all the BB's are at the back of the map unable to support behind an island...with no shots on anything...while rest of team is getting slaughtered... that Is what I am referring to, basically an average game.

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2 minutes ago, Srgt_Misfire said:

Only commenting to the BB pushing part, again, my first Initial post was unclear, I was refering to the fact that BB's pushing with the team, you know, when the cruisers /dd's are trying to and all the BB's are at the back of the map unable to support behind an island...with no shots on anything...while rest of team is getting slaughtered... that Is what I am referring to, basically an average game.

 

That has nothing to do with game balance thats just poor players. You cant really fix that.

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Vor 2 Stunden, Srgt_Misfire sagte:

Co_op: Sorry but shouldn't we rename this DD-oP?, trying to get anywhere with , let's say, a bb Is 90% of the time (random % pulled out of thin air) pointless, by the time you get to engage half the time, the game is over and the Destroyer's have gobbled all the Exp:Smile_facepalm:, not a go at Destroyers, but the Mechanics of the game mean rushing forward and torp'ing is the way to go. How to fix? *&%@ if i know.

WG could change the Medium AI with High AI. You can test this yourself in trainingroom, the Hight AI actually does not yolopush like Medium AI.

Apparently(from what i heard) there used to be a time when the High AI was in Coop, but the random Joe actually managed to lose the maority of their games against said High AI and were crying so lound that WG changed the AI back to the Medium one...

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3 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

But isnt that more a playerbase issue than an issue with BBs? As you say yourself, if the BB has backup, itll work. And with that i agree, ive done so myself. And i have no problem sacrificing myself for a win when playing BB.

 

But that also depends on skill difference between you and the BB player. As you said yourself, you also have been killed at times. So both does happen. The biggest problem for me is, that BBs have a tendency to fail at closerange. Thats something i personaly dont like. But i think if you can take half a cruiser or more on 20+km, it seems to be "balanced". Cant have both imo.

 

Yesterday i played alsace and pushed a ChungMu/Östergötland and a JB. Ask @Saltface, he was there. I didnt take any torp by faking turns several times. And killed the Chungmu in the process. Unless the DD gets a perfect torpvolley, he wont stop a BB from getting what it wants, f.e. an objective. He has to make room, otherwise he gets spotted.

 

Atlanta AA is laughable at best right now. Ill summone @El2aZeR who knows all that AA stuff better than me. He is probably the best CV player, and knows all that stuff in and out, so i trust him on that.

 

Well, as i said, that can have difference reasons.

F.e. Smolensk is easy to play. And its a freemium, even if you do badly, you wont lose credits. Compared to doing badly in a Techtree ship, which usually costs you money. Atleast when you dont run premium account.

German ships are played more on EU, as i said, because german playerbase is the largest. Other servers paint different pictures.

French Cruisers were never popular, dont ask me why. To me, they are extremely strong from T8-10. Maybe its a skill issue, or people dont like them on lowertiers - no idea.

 

 

Then enjoy :cap_haloween:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Ive played 2 seasons radar Mino (not the last, because CV [edited]), and ive played TX Clanbrawl Radar (smoke when CVs were involved) Mino aswell. Next saturday is Clanbrawl again, and ill play Radar Mino.

The thing is, it has an absurdly high skill floor and ceiling. But if you can harvest that potential, its one of the strongest ships around. Thats the reason, why Mino is an unpopular choice for competetitve: its easier to be good in other ships, the effort and skill needed is very high, to get more out of it.

RE BB pushing +  player base, agreed, lower skilled players WON'T push because they are going to take damage, better players won't push because they won't get any support from the other lot....so what if risk v reward was altered, what If being more agressive instead of camping was rewarded.. I don't know, I'm not even saying I have the answers, I'm just trying to get a game that I feel Is stagnating and get It moving again, It was honestly a lot more fun at the start before all this Island hugging, sit at the back became the norm. I mean how many times have you played a cruiser, been getting pounded, and have two BB's right next to you unable to help because they are behind an island and make no move to assist you both full HP? I see it all the time, or the new funzie, 9 of you team all bunch up in 3 grid squares of the map and end up in one big "torp here please" lump. It's like people have stopped using that thing we call a brain.

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44 minutes ago, Floofz said:

 

That has nothing to do with game balance thats just poor players. You cant really fix that.

Poor Player, yup, can't fix maybe maybe not, again risk v reward, or, and never going to happen, skill level MM.

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1 hour ago, Srgt_Misfire said:

whatever happened to cruiser AA being the best, and what happened to AA specific cruisers?

 

To put it simply:

- nerf came to reworked CVs that kinda made them balanced

- CV rework population tanked so hard that it fell below RTS

- WG realized the rework is in danger of failing and thus globally murdered AA

 

So yeah, they've given up on balancing at least when it comes to that.

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5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

To put it simply:

- nerf came to reworked CVs that kinda made them balanced

- CV rework population tanked so hard that it fell below RTS

- WG realized the rework is in danger of failing and thus globally murdered AA

 

So yeah, they've given up on balancing at least when it comes to that.

Subs will be the one content that balans dem all.

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2 hours ago, Srgt_Misfire said:

customer service, valued customers, transparency, Integrity, honesty and so on??

 

Those calling the shots at WOWS do not do that sort of thing / do not believe in any of that.

 

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Good post OP, I'll throw my own 2 pence in on gameplay issues.

 

I think the 2 main sources of current disfunctional gameplay are the increase in fighting distance, and also CVs. These 2 are of course linked.

 

Some of the issues are unavoidable, the way armor and dispersion works naturally encourages bad players to stay as far away as possible. The Concealment Expert nerf that also came in 8.0, while needed, also meant decent players would play a bit further away, especially in BBs. With the BBs pulling back, the cruiser will pull back a bit as well because otherwise they'd be more likely to be focus fired, since with the numbers of 457mm+ BBs and high HE DPMs now around damage can be hard to mitigate. As for HE, at long distance an angled BB is basically impervious to AP, so HE spam is the only way for anyone cause damage, obviously means more thing will default to HE.

 

This also screws traditional DDs since to get into torp range (to the now even further back enemies) or contest cap you will have to go further away from your team leaving them far from help if something spots you. And the amount of accurate HE, probably meant by WG to shift angled BBs, will kill a DD fast. No suprise the best performing DDs have been gun boats who stay further away. At least it seem WG knows this with the new EU DDs' fast long range torps. But it does mean they also contribute to push the fighting further apart.

 

And then we have CVs, the issues are many and varied, but I'll just complain about their spotting. Now everything can be spotted at anytime and there is nothing they can do about it, you won't get time to reposition, you don't get to go dark, and the best bet is to stay far away and hope the enemy miss. Now no one wants to take any risks, more and more often we get BBs sitting bow on at max range, crusier following them and DDs caught between doing something or following the rest of their team. Plus the CVs actively punishes isolated ships, by both keeping them spotted for focus fire and easier time striking them.

 

So the meta very much encourages sitting in a blob at spawn resulting in static and boring play, with a lot of reliance on who gets the best long range dispersion RNG. And even good players, in organised teams, have to do a variation of this as seen in the last CB season.

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4 minutes ago, UnderDuress said:

Good post OP, I'll throw my own 2 pence in on gameplay issues.

 

I think the 2 main sources of current disfunctional gameplay are the increase in fighting distance, and also CVs. These 2 are of course linked.

 

Some of the issues are unavoidable, the way armor and dispersion works naturally encourages bad players to stay as far away as possible. The Concealment Expert nerf that also came in 8.0, while needed, also meant decent players would play a bit further away, especially in BBs. With the BBs pulling back, the cruiser will pull back a bit as well because otherwise they'd be more likely to be focus fired, since with the numbers of 457mm+ BBs and high HE DPMs now around damage can be hard to mitigate. As for HE, at long distance an angled BB is basically impervious to AP, so HE spam is the only way for anyone cause damage, obviously means more thing will default to HE.

 

This also screws traditional DDs since to get into torp range (to the now even further back enemies) or contest cap you will have to go further away from your team leaving them far from help if something spots you. And the amount of accurate HE, probably meant by WG to shift angled BBs, will kill a DD fast. No suprise the best performing DDs have been gun boats who stay further away. At least it seem WG knows this with the new EU DDs' fast long range torps. But it does mean they also contribute to push the fighting further apart.

 

And then we have CVs, the issues are many and varied, but I'll just complain about their spotting. Now everything can be spotted at anytime and there is nothing they can do about it, you won't get time to reposition, you don't get to go dark, and the best bet is to stay far away and hope the enemy miss. Now no one wants to take any risks, more and more often we get BBs sitting bow on at max range, crusier following them and DDs caught between doing something or following the rest of their team. Plus the CVs actively punishes isolated ships, by both keeping them spotted for focus fire and easier time striking them.

 

So the meta very much encourages sitting in a blob at spawn resulting in static and boring play, with a lot of reliance on who gets the best long range dispersion RNG. And even good players, in organised teams, have to do a variation of this as seen in the last CB season.

pretty much spot on, excellent post (IMHO)

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you know, i came back to the game 3 days ago after a break after cv rework(really couldnt stand the game back then) and what can i say... i HATE it. 

I mean i usually dont get strong emotions towards developers but in this case, man, what a screw up.

the imbalance created by powercreep, the ridiculously OP ships like the kremlin, AA being a total joke and the EXTREMELY campy meta and god awful matchmaking, omnipresent radar...i really dont know what there is about this game that can be liked.

the only positive thing was the T7 ranked games...THAT is how this game should play not the complete clusterfuck of random battles. 

 

it's just terrible and honestly I dont see it getting any better so im not spending a single dime on this anymore. I'll play operations and ranked if its available but thats about it.

WG killed any notion I had to support them with this complete screwup and their inability(or unwillingness) to balance things. 

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4 hours ago, Srgt_Misfire said:

no problems other than they should reset rewards each cycle of each scenario

Lesser rewards should offered for completing the scenario again. Like a cheap flag or camo. Something. But they seem to want to trim the gains even more or even pull them completely.

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