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Shokaku tier 8 IJN Carrier OP in current MM

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Beta Tester
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I like playing all classes and recently got the tier 8 Shokaku (yes i need a social life!!) I have to say I LOVED the tier 7 and tier 8 is even better.  However as its CBT and everything will of course be balanced I feel its slightly OP.

Ive had several games now where I have had 6 or 7 kills, although great for me I thinks its too much or perhaps its the way I play?  I can rush at start and kill any enemy CV including Essex, most games where there is no enemy CV its a done deal which brings me onto something ive touched on in the past...the MM as far as CV is concerned.

Something has to be done on the balancing, You cant have a tier 8 CV against enemy with no CV at all, that's silly.  Also you cant have a US CV against enemy with no CV either, and US CV players are not fitting out with a fighter setup because of this (who wants to just 'spot' for 20 minutes) and it sort of works when no enemy CV BUT when their IS an enemy CV you are very very underpowered in taking their planes out.  Ive heard a few people say its my fault for having a fighter only setup (with DB ofc) but that's where the US CV strength is now...in countering the IJN planes!!....whats the point of having a US CV and playing to 80% of its strength.  I really don't mind waiting for a battle as long as the MM is balanced, as it is its annoying, that's my experience so far, im sure it will be addressed, what do you think?

 

Oh and if it doesn't change im happy to carry on 4,5,6,7 kills :playing:

Edited by _SeamanStaines_
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Beta Tester
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This has to be the first thread since 3.1 about a CV being OP.

Edited by WhiskeyWolf
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Alpha Tester
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What makes it OP?  Are you sure that it's the ship, rather than just you, the opposition and the MM?

 

Can it outfight an Essex?  I'm slightly puzzled as to how you took one out at the start.

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Beta Tester
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IMO, its mostly the MM here and a bit of torps arming too quickly.

 

Inside 2km from a target like a fat BB is just lame. for one, they cant dodge in that time and for two its guarantees a kill whilst the BB is powerless to do anything especially at lower tiers.

 

Now, the MM needs to stop like putting 2 cv's on one side and none on the other and crazy crap like that.

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Alpha Tester
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This post is like me saying Zao is OP since I usually make mincemeat of a Des Moines on a 1 Vs 1.

 

Before the patch I even managed to fight 2 Des Moines at the same time on Senjo. Sank the first one and could have sank the second one if a Yamato from his division hadn't showed up and saved his [edited]making me retreat. Even so, the second ended with less HP than me despite both being at full health when the duel started.

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Beta Tester
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What makes it OP?  Are you sure that it's the ship, rather than just you, the opposition and the MM?

 

Can it outfight an Essex?  I'm slightly puzzled as to how you took one out at the start.

 

 

 

IJN carrier is about positioning, have to be close to front line (behind cover ofc) this coupled with the fast plane turnaround helps spam planes at enemy CV (while avoiding CA) until its dead.  With the sheer volume the enemy CV has no chance, they have to land their fighters.  The Essex ive killed didn't have a pure fighter setup for the reasons mentioned before hence I can rush him and he cant kill all my planes.  I don't have an Essex (yet) but if i did I would have a balanced setup due to MM potentially putting me in a game with no enemy CV.  If we knew enemy would definitely have CV then id go for a fighter setup and IJN can be countered.

 

As thread title says though, its OP in current MM - as a ship not, ive yet to face an Essex with fighter setup, however I can counter that with luring etc.

Edited by _SeamanStaines_
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Beta Tester
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This post is like me saying Zao is OP since I usually make mincemeat of a Des Moines on a 1 Vs 1.

 

Before the patch I even managed to fight 2 Des Moines at the same time on Senjo. Sank the first one and could have sank the second one if a Yamato from his division hadn't showed up and saved his [edited]making me retreat.

 

So your saying 4, 5 6 and 7 kills in a ship is ok, on a regular basis?

 

I guess as more people get this and they can see the data on their end to make a call, I hope its just me being badass lol!

Edited by _SeamanStaines_

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Sailing Hamster
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You can take my matchmaker and play vs Lexs and Essexs in T7 IJN CV. I resigned from playing CV because its hit miss situation. Either you get fighter carrier as opponent and play a game not to loose too many planes to opponent that just click his fighters or you just rape enemy team. Is frustrating and exhausting. Ofc lags doesnt help when planes dont react to orders when you coordinate 6 squads and click fast.

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Man, right now you rule because USN carriers got this lame set ups but if you ever encounter even a Lexington with corsairs they'll just rape your [edited]. 126 damage on Lex fighters against your 96 damage fighters.

 

And let's not talk about extra planes per squadron, captain skills and equipments.

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This is MM by design:

1. USS CV vs. no CV = pointless

2. IJN CV vs. no CV = unfair

3. USS CV vs. IJN CV = unfair

4. USS and IJN CV vs. USS and IJN CV = fair? good luck in ever encountering such a setup in a equal tier

 

Balanceby WG

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So your saying 4, 5 6 and 7 kills in a ship is ok, on a regular basis?

 

I guess as more people get this and they can see the data on their end to make a call, I hope its just me being badass lol!

 

 

Well, for starters, my chances at killing stuff with CAs are rathet bad in this World of Battleships. Furthermore my survability is the worse since I'm a CA.

 

In contrast, with skill, a CV can kill any class and they are the last to be killed on a team since they are the least exposed class of all.

 

You basically can kill anything and have more time to kill anything.

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View PostOVanBruce, on 18 May 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

Man, right now you rule because USN carriers got this lame set ups but if you ever encounter even a Lexington with corsairs they'll just rape your [edited]. 126 damage on Lex fighters against your 96 damage fighters.

And let's not talk about extra planes per squadron, captain skills and equipments.

 

Anyone playing IJN with a fighter setup needs their head read, IMO, its like having a Ferrari and changing the engine out for a Golf Polo.  WHy oh why would anyone use the weak fighters of IJN against US CV.
 

View PostWhiskeyWolf, on 18 May 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

This is MM by design:

1. USS CV vs. no CV = pointless

2. IJN CV vs. no CV = unfair

3. USS CV vs. IJN CV = unfair

4. USS and IJN CV vs. USS and IJN CV = fair? good luck in ever encountering such a setup in a equal tier

 

Balanceby WG

 

Agree
 

View PostOVanBruce, on 18 May 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

 

 

Well, for starters, my chances at killing stuff with CAs are rathet bad in this World of Battleships. Furthermore my survability is the worse since I'm a CA.

 

In contrast, with skill, a CV can kill any class and they are the last to be killed on a team since they are the least exposed class of all.

 

You basically can kill anything and have more time to kill anything.

 

Agree as well.  In my CA i don't bother with AP now.
 
 

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Balanced setups should be the norm for both lines (with some balancing so that it isn't a cakewalk for one or the other in simple straight up fights). This 'flavour' is not good. IJN high tier carriers have a lot of firepower when not opposed, but when opposed they get swatted. But since you can't be sure you will oppose one in a USN CV you won't go that way. Similarly, if you knew every time you loaded up in an IJN CV you would face a fighter carrier, you can be sure a lot of people wouldn't bother with them.

So instead both lines should be 'balanced' so that when they are alone they won't have OMFGOP power, and when facing each other they have a nice duel of fighter positioning to gank bombers or ambush enemy fighter (again to gank bombers).

 

I had my greatest battles in my old Saipan when faced with enemy Saipans, where we tried to get at each others' bombers, desperately trying to drag the enemy fighters over AA and so on. None of that happens now. Even if you manage to drag the enemy fighters over AA, they tend to shred their opposition regardless. Of course USN vs USN in fighter can have the fighter duels, but without the bombers to act as a real threat, it is pointless.

 

But the worst has to be when you have two carriers on both sides, and they are 'pure'. Two IJN vs USN. That just sucks, and essentially what is does is to remove four ships from the battle.

Edited by Unintentional_submarine
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Anyone playing IJN with a fighter setup needs their head read, IMO, its like having a Ferrari and changing the engine out for a Golf Polo.  WHy oh why would anyone use the weak fighters of IJN against US CV.

 

Because if you encounter an USN CV with fighters you are basically crap? Your fighters at least can help you distract USN fighters. Unless the USN CV is [edited]

Edited by BigBadVuk
This post has been edited by a member of the Moderation Team, due to inappropriate content.
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Alpha Tester
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I had a great game yesterday for the x4 - should I open OP topic now? You avarage kills are 2 (two), that's just normal if you can play them and there is no opposition, because of World of Battleships and teethless USN CVs. Why to nerf the ships/planes themself when they will get useless once  you meet air superiority USN CV.

 

CVs are simply unpopular now due to many reasons, with more players in OBT they will still be unpopular, but more players will play them as it's now on the lower tiers.

23rs8yr.jpg

 

PS: Essex can't have "balanced setup" with 5 squadrons. It's either fighters or TBs.

 

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Alpha Tester
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I don't really want to expand much on the VIII tier CV as I am yet to unlock her (I am taking my sweet time, I know). But IJN CVs are strong, really. Even If there is an US CV against you. I am at VII right now and I understand why they did not introduce tier IX and X.

I wouldn't go around saying that IJN CVs are OP, but they are working.

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Beta Tester
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Maybe ive confused people or people not reading the thread title.  Im talking about the MM making the IJN OP with the crap balancing rather than the Ship itself.  In the right hands any ship can do very well i think (not that im that person) lets see what WG do as im sure with the data they get a few changes will be made.

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Alpha Tester
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Essex can deliver more punches, it's not really hard to oneshot even Iowa. Should we nerf it, because there are like 50-60 good high tier CV captains among 9.2K online players yesterday and it's rare to have opposition?

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Essex can deliver more punches, it's not really hard to oneshot even Iowa. Should we nerf it, because there are like 50-60 good high tier CV captains among 9.2K online players yesterday and it's rare to have opposition?

 

No. No single nerf will undo the situation. Not in my mind. IJN carriers need less offensive power because of it's raw brutality in the hands of a great captain when he is unopposed. But what about when it is opposed? Well there they need some tools. And I see those tools to be fighters, or more properly, balanced setups for both sides (perhaps with some variations per tier, but essentially X-X-X numbers of fighters, TBs and DBs). Naturally that requires a more thorough balancing of the fighters so that you won't have one or the other side sweep the other line's fighters at a given Tier.

 

The squadron numbers and sizes should be plenty 'flavour'. The USN carriers generally (not always) have a few more planes in reserve as it is, maybe expand upon it. After all the more squadrons tend to be a benefit if you can handle it.

Edited by Unintentional_submarine

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Beta Tester
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I doubt that you can kill any good essex player regardless of your setup as a IJN carrier. Essex is fast enough to add a nice amount of seconds  to your torpedo runners which will then be shot down before launching as they pop heavily. Even if you hit through a bit it is damage dealt but unlikely to be 60k and debuffs will be cleared intelligently. Even without fighters I have never even be pressured by any other single CV and I don't see why it would be different for the IJN.

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I have a question towards the Shokaku drivers in this thread, do most of your targets even evade? If yes then what do you do then?

 

Maybe I'm missing something here.

Edited by WhiskeyWolf

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Alpha Tester
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No. No single nerf will undo the situation. Not in my mind. IJN carriers need less offensive power because of it's raw brutality in the hands of a great captain when he is unopposed. But what about when it is opposed? Well there they need some tools. And I see those tools to be fighters, or more properly, balanced setups for both sides (perhaps with some variations per tier, but essentially X-X-X numbers of fighters, TBs and DBs). Naturally that requires a more thorough balancing of the fighters so that you won't have one or the other side sweep the other line's fighters at a given Tier.

 

The squadron numbers and sizes should be plenty 'flavour'. The USN carriers generally (not always) have a few more planes in reserve as it is, maybe expand upon it. After all the more squadrons tend to be a benefit if you can handle it.

You missed the entire point in reworking the CVs I think. The old USN CVs were universal, you don't need others if they are avalible. What's better then good fighters + TBs? Besides the IJN right now have 3 TBs = 12 planes = 2 USN TBs before the patch. The difference is the buffed DBs, BUT the torps alpha was lowered and the anti-torp protection is better now. It's was daily situation to oneshot the same tier BB until tier 7 in the last patch, what's wrong when the IJN glass cannon can do it now too, but is vurnable to fighters if there are any?

And if they make them universal again (with all possible setups) I see absolutely no point in playing IJN line if the old USN one is back.

 

I have a question towards the Shokaku drivers in this thread, do most of your targets even evade? If yes then what do you do then?

 

Maybe I'm missing something here.

Of course they evade (3/4 of them) and 1/4 is really good at that. You simply need to predict, set traps, dron with the right angles. It's doable, you just lose more planes to the AA, but it still hurts.

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Of course they evade (3/4 of them) and 1/4 is really good at that. You simply need to predict, set traps, dron with the right angles. It's doable, you just lose more planes to the AA, but it still hurts.

 

I'm sorry but I'm still not sure how that is possible if most of the targets evade. At which point landing 4 hits is pretty fair but negligible as far as damage goes. How many hits do you need to land on an average BB to sink it? Pre-patch I needed a perfect 12 hits from a Ranger on a Warspite to one-hit-it.

Edited by WhiskeyWolf

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