WG, why did you nerf Ägir's secondary guns?

[Mastodon2]

It feels like you were going to make something fresh a new from a gameplay perspective (a secondary cruiser that had a chance of working) but you lost your courage towards the end and made Ägir a rather generic battle cruiser like all the others. What was your thinking behind this?

 

Pls respond.

[Miscommunication_dept]

If they kept those secondaries with its current sigma it would be stronger than Alaska. 
 

Im with you though, they could have lowered the reload slightly and kept this secondaries.

[Mastodon2]

11 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

If they kept those secondaries with its current sigma it would be stronger than Alaska. 
 

Im with you though, they could have lowered the reload slightly and kept this secondaries.

The original iteration had 22 second reload on the main guns and 3.1 second on the secondaries, plus more range- somewhere in the 7.5km range area. Now we've got 20 second reload on the mains and 3.6 on the secondaries with 5.4km range.

 

It kind of feels like they were about to make something interesting, if not necessarily "meta" or strong from a gameplay perspective but then they lost their nerve and made it a generic super cruiser. It's disappointing. Maybe they're planning a Russian secondary cruiser after seeing how well-received Ägir was in her first iteration.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

Maybe because of Siegfried?

[Azalgor]

42 minutes ago, Mastodon2 said:

It feels like you were going to make something fresh a new from a gameplay perspective

That is the answer, second part is that its not Soviet, so no fun alowed.

All 3 ships that originated from Sieagfried (Agir, Mainz, Odin), only Mainz didnt get to be destroyed by the nerf hammer since WG also goes in favor of HE spaming ships, the other 2, Odin, had improved pen if i recal wich was great agains those HE spamers and light armored ships, that was a no no, they nerfed it, ship became crap and then they also cut its health. Agir was a secondary CA, but someone had to much fun with it, they removed this gimick and the ship is mediocre at best. As for the Siegfrid, well, Gneisenau on tier 9 as CA, nothing special about it either.

[Animalul2012]

So you wanted an T9 GK but without armor(not that GK armor is strong anyway)? A ship that relies on crappy secondaries to deal damage instead of his guns? Or to be more precise on AI rather than Human mind and hand? Secondary ships are garbage and out of meta,reliable ships with gun accuracy,strong HE,improved AP and fantastic overmatch is where the game is at not pew pew secondaries. IS it fun to charge in and get 4 fires on you only to extinguish them so that later after 5 seconds you have another 4 fires on you? Agir is in a much better state than it was with the secondary meme, only thing it needs is improved AP penetration.

[Miscommunication_dept]

32 minutes ago, Mastodon2 said:

The original iteration had 22 second reload on the main guns and 3.1 second on the secondaries, plus more range- somewhere in the 7.5km range area. Now we've got 20 second reload on the mains and 3.6 on the secondaries with 5.4km range.

 

It kind of feels like they were about to make something interesting, if not necessarily "meta" or strong from a gameplay perspective but then they lost their nerve and made it a generic super cruiser. It's disappointing. Maybe they're planning a Russian secondary cruiser after seeing how well-received Ägir was in her first iteration.

The main issue was the secondary dispersion. You had 18 guns that could all pen 32mm with zeppelin dispersion.

There is a very comical video  of Flamu where he ran a secondary build.

 

At that point though, the main guns were very inconsistent with the same accuracy as the battleship Georgia.

 

It would have been nice though as right now I could not find a reason to recommend Agir over the Siegfried.

They are very similar but dispersion and overmatch make Siegfried better.

 

mentioned video:

 

[CptBarney]

2 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

The main issue was the secondary dispersion. You had 18 guns that could all pen 32mm with zeppelin dispersion.

There is a very comical video  of Flamu where he ran a secondary build.

 

At that point though, the main guns were very inconsistent with the same accuracy as the battleship Georgia.

 

It would have been nice though as right now I could not find a reason to recommend Agir over the Siegfried.

They are very similar but dispersion and overmatch make Siegfried better.

just give her 8km secs pre nerf, with alaska guns and 60mm plate and 30mm bow and 20% better mobility

good thing i don't work in the balancing department, otherwise kremlin would be considered 'massively underpowered' in my own version

[HaachamaShipping]

Secondary cruiser not just is not meta, it's a dumb concept. Designing a ship around an automated armament type is a silly idea and I'm absolutely 100% glad WG scrapped that idea on Aegir, because I cannot envision how disgusted and furious I'd get if they add a ship where every potato could just yolo forward in their more survivable than normal cruiser, not need any aiming skills, because secondaries and then die after throwing out all torps, getting way more out of it than they ever should. If Aegir now is lacking, well, one can think of things to improve on it, but the secondaries, hell no. 

 

And personally, while the guns aren't great, the ship overall seems good enough for a T9. Kind of like Azuma, not powercreeping the tech tree ships. Youknow, the way it should be. 

[Mastodon2]

10 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

Secondary cruiser not just is not meta, it's a dumb concept. Designing a ship around an automated armament type is a silly idea and I'm absolutely 100% glad WG scrapped that idea on Aegir, because I cannot envision how disgusted and furious I'd get if they add a ship where every potato could just yolo forward in their more survivable than normal cruiser, not need any aiming skills, because secondaries and then die after throwing out all torps, getting way more out of it than they ever should. If Aegir now is lacking, well, one can think of things to improve on it, but the secondaries, hell no. 

 

And personally, while the guns aren't great, the ship overall seems good enough for a T9. Kind of like Azuma, not powercreeping the tech tree ships. Youknow, the way it should be. 

I'm not asking for the perfectly-tuned balans to be disrupted (not when WG have done such a great job with it), I'm just asking if there couldn't have been something more fun to do with Ägir. Making it something other than a generic super cruiser didn't have to make making it OP.

[HaachamaShipping]

1 minute ago, Mastodon2 said:

I'm not asking for the perfectly-tuned balans to be disrupted (not when WG have done such a great job with it), I'm just asking if there couldn't have been something more fun to do with Ägir. Making it something other than a generic super cruiser didn't have to make making it OP.

Why make a supercruiser if you just ignore the one aspect setting it apart, the large caliber guns? Could one tweak it to be less generic, maybe. So far, the one thing Aegir and Siegfried have going for them is a set of torps at T9. Youare no Tirpitz, but you certainly can do things others cannot. 

[Yedwy]

TBH IDK if I ll even bother with Aegir, having all 3 of the other supercruisers I just don see what another 305 one brings, gettign Siegfried even if she is basically a Gneise clone seems more interesting at least gun caliber wise if nothing else...

[Miscommunication_dept]

26 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

Secondary cruiser not just is not meta, it's a dumb concept. Designing a ship around an automated armament type is a silly idea and I'm absolutely 100% glad WG scrapped that idea on Aegir, because I cannot envision how disgusted and furious I'd get if they add a ship where every potato could just yolo forward in their more survivable than normal cruiser, not need any aiming skills, because secondaries and then die after throwing out all torps, getting way more out of it than they ever should. If Aegir now is lacking, well, one can think of things to improve on it, but the secondaries, hell no. 

 

And personally, while the guns aren't great, the ship overall seems good enough for a T9. Kind of like Azuma, not powercreeping the tech tree ships. Youknow, the way it should be. 

I understand what you mean but to get within 11.3km while retaining enough HP to keep ships in your secondaries and being sure not to end up facing too many enemies is a skill in itself! 

 

 

 

[Miscommunication_dept]

2 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

TBH IDK if I ll even bother with Aegir, having all 3 of the other supercruisers I just don see what another 305 one brings, gettign Siegfried even if she is basically a Gneise clone seems more interesting at least gun caliber wise if nothing else...

As someone who owns both, I can think of absolutely nothing that Siegfried is not better than or equal to the Agir.

Happy I bought both but given the opportunity again I'd leave the Agir.

[HaachamaShipping]

Just now, gopher31 said:

I understand what you mean but to get within 11.3km while retaining enough HP to keep ships in your secondaries and being sure not to end up facing too many enemies is a skill in itself! 

 

 

 

The issue is not Aegir being so OP it needs no skill, it's the skill floor being so low every moron can get something out of yolo plays. If you just rush in, you are likely to die, question is, how hard is it to kill your ship and how much will it accomplish before it dies. Secondary focus on the flip side is garbage for skill ceiling, because you only get so far with it... 

[ColonelPete]

2 hours ago, Mastodon2 said:

It feels like you were going to make something fresh a new from a gameplay perspective (a secondary cruiser that had a chance of working) but you lost your courage towards the end and made Ägir a rather generic battle cruiser like all the others. What was your thinking behind this?

 

Pls respond.

Secondary Cruisers do not work, unless you make them tougher than BB.

People complain about secondary BB not working in high Tier and you want a cruiser for that?

[Uglesett]

1 hour ago, gopher31 said:

As someone who owns both, I can think of absolutely nothing that Siegfried is not better than or equal to the Agir..

The latter is actually available for something other than the most idiotic currency WG have concocted so far?

[Miscommunication_dept]

21 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

The latter is actually available for something other than the most idiotic currency WG have concocted so far?

Their are more currencies coming comrade...

[Yedwy]

2 hours ago, Uglesett said:

The latter is actually available for something other than the most idiotic currency WG have concocted so far?

Well that currency is just € m8, buy gold (and silver if needbee) and convert elite XP so you can fast reset and freexp the line 4-5 times and done... 

[Yxkraft]

12 hours ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

Secondary cruiser not just is not meta, it's a dumb concept. Designing a ship around an automated armament type is a silly idea and I'm absolutely 100% glad WG scrapped that idea on Aegir, because I cannot envision how disgusted and furious I'd get if they add a ship where every potato could just yolo forward in their more survivable than normal cruiser, not need any aiming skills, because secondaries and then die after throwing out all torps, getting way more out of it than they ever should. If Aegir now is lacking, well, one can think of things to improve on it, but the secondaries, hell no. 

 

And personally, while the guns aren't great, the ship overall seems good enough for a T9. Kind of like Azuma, not powercreeping the tech tree ships. Youknow, the way it should be. 

 

This is nonsense because if you yolo forward you end up in 4v1 situations and die real fast even if you are a BB. In a flimsy supercruiser it goes even faster. Since bb caliber main guns have been seriously nerfed against dds it means that your secondaries have to pick up the slack and these supercruisers simply have not good enough secondary batteries to do the dd hunting job a regular cruiser can do. With command fire your accuracy is still crap against a 30+ knot dd, in last ranked my gneisenau (with command fire captain) fired 58 rounds against a vanquelin with speed boost on parallell course and hit with 2. 

[HaachamaShipping]

1 minute ago, Yxkraft said:

 

This is nonsense because if you yolo forward you end up in 4v1 situations and die real fast even if you are a BB. In a flimsy supercruiser it goes even faster. Since bb caliber main guns have been seriously nerfed against dds it means that your secondaries have to pick up the slack and these supercruisers simply have not good enough secondary batteries to do the dd hunting job a regular cruiser can do. With command fire your accuracy is still crap against a 30+ knot dd, in last ranked my gneisenau (with command fire captain) fired 58 rounds against a vanquelin with speed boost on parallell course and hit with 2. 

Comparing a six gun BB with mediocre accuracy for a BB to a supercruiser with 9 guns that have also supercruiser accuracy.

 

Also, apart from the fact that a supercruiser being worse against DDs than a regular cruiser is part of its balancing, supercruisers are far from impotent against DDs. Obviously, Ägir isn't the prime supercruiser against DDs (Alaska brings radar, Yoshino and Azuma bring way better HE and better accuracy), but it's far from impotent, especially when you consider that given the hp pool of DDs, even just hitting a few shells hurts a lot. And if you consistently miss a DD on a paralel course in Ägir, that's an aiming issue really, not a gun accuracy one.

 

[Sunleader]

18 hours ago, gopher31 said:

If they kept those secondaries with its current sigma it would be stronger than Alaska. 
 

Im with you though, they could have lowered the reload slightly and kept this secondaries.

 

That I would consider highly doubtful.

Alaska maintains a Heavy Advantage in Firepower thanks to the Improved Pen Angles. And aside from having Radar which makes it a Horror to Deal with for DDs. It also comes with an Underwater Citadel that makes it about as Hard Penetrate as a German Battleship. Much unlike Ägir which gets no Iceabreaker and whose Turtleback is fairly Thin thus not only making it eat more Full Pens from BBs as it Stops Shells from Overpenetrating. But also resulting in the Citadel being much easier to hit for Enemy Battleships.

 

The Secondaries are by far not capable of changing that.

If Ägir wanted to hold so much as a Candle to Alaska it would need get the Short Fuse of Scharnhorst. The Icebreaker of the Hindenburg and the Secondaries of the Odin.

And even then it would only Beat the Alaska at Brawling Ranges.

 

 

Riight now the only Supercruiser that I see as an True Alternative to Alaska would be Siegfried. Which is down to the Extremely Accurate 38cm Guns which Offer it something that the Alaska doesnt have and thus Allow it to Succeed in some Situations where the Alaska isnt the Right Ship for the Job.

[Miscommunication_dept]

When broadside or directly bow on, the Alaska’s armour will deal with battleship AP better. As you say, this is due to an underwater citadel and an upper belt which will not arm battleship AP when broadside.

 

When we are playing we of course aim to maintain an angle. In that situation the turtle back works very well and the 90mm plate makes it far superior at resisting normal pens. I would say this is more important as that is how you would normally present yourself to the enemy.

Of course, if you make a mistake and need to turn in front of a battleship, the Alaska would be less likely to get citadelled.

 

I certainly concede the point that Alaska has superior guns due to very useful ricochet angles.

 

Regarding the secondary question. The way they were during testing with improved accuracy, reload and range. The Agir would have a genuine ability to melt any ship that came within 11.5km. With a concealment of 11.9km it would be able to ambush any ship it wanted. This would be a big advantage at close ranges.

 

Agir would be  far stronger than Alaska at these ranges while Alaska would be a bit better at longer ranges.

 

 

[Mastodon2]

44 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

 

 

Agir would be  far stronger than Alaska at these ranges while Alaska would be a bit better at longer ranges.

 

 

This was exactly my reason for asking the question. Aside from the torpedos (which aren't exactly devastating*), the Ägir is just worse than the Alaska at any distance and lacks that radar utility.

 

There is no reason Ägir couldn't have had powerful secondaries. In the first iteration it had a slower reload and the dispersion appeared to worse. A sniper it most certainly was not. So why not reward a unique, if not necessarily "meta" play style? If you watch Flamu's old videos, it takes skill to make the secondaries work, you need to get close but still stay protected as the ship still eats a lot of damage.

 

It feels like WG were part of the way there but then lost their nerve and made it a generic ship, except they wanted to make sure it wasn't going to powercreep anything, or even really be a viable alternative from a competitive perspective. The only reason to play Ägir over Alaska is for German crew training or XP farming with elite German commanders, or because it's prettier than Alaska.

 

*The Mainz is a tier lower and has way more torpedo power than the Ägir, but again, 6km torps so you need to take a risk to get in range to use them.

[Miscommunication_dept]

9 minutes ago, Mastodon2 said:

This was exactly my reason for asking the question. Aside from the torpedos (which aren't exactly devastating*), the Ägir is just worse than the Alaska at any distance and lacks that radar utility.

 

There is no reason Ägir couldn't have had powerful secondaries. In the first iteration it had a slower reload and the dispersion appeared to worse. A sniper it most certainly was not. So why not reward a unique, if not necessarily "meta" play style? If you watch Flamu's old videos, it takes skill to make the secondaries work, you need to get close but still stay protected as the ship still eats a lot of damage.

 

It feels like WG were part of the way there but then lost their nerve and made it a generic ship, except they wanted to make sure it wasn't going to powercreep anything, or even really be a viable alternative from a competitive perspective. The only reason to play Ägir over Alaska is for German crew training or XP farming with elite German commanders, or because it's prettier than Alaska.

 

*The Mainz is a tier lower and has way more torpedo power than the Ägir, but again, 6km torps so you need to take a risk to get in range to use them.

When it had those secondaries the guns had a sigma of 1.80. That's Georgia dispersion and would have been frustrating with 305mm guns.

Couple that with 17km and you can see how much those secondaries cost the Agir in the initial intepretation.

 

How many cruisers have better torps than the Mainz?

I can only think of the japanese and british lines.