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Mainz vs Bayard

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Personally, I prefer Bayard as it is more consistent in most situations. Mainz has only the AP dpm going for it, and that works mostly against broadside targets.  Bayard works in any situation. 

 

Both are huge citadels waiting to get wrecked if your not careful. 

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14 hours ago, Jethro_Grey said:

Personally, I prefer Bayard as it is more consistent in most situations. Mainz has only the AP dpm going for it, and that works mostly against broadside targets.  Bayard works in any situation. 

 

Both are huge citadels waiting to get wrecked if your not careful. 

You do know the Mainz's HE DPM is also higher than all but 2 of the T10 cruisers, plus has 38mm of HE pen built in?

 

And a turtle back citadel and 8 torps a side with 6km Hydro... Only downside it has is concealment...

 

Bayard is a good ship When I tried it out as a rental, but it doesn't compete with the Mainz in shear reliable DPM...

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Speaking as someone who has both of them, I say they are both good.

 

Think I like Mainz more out of the two though..

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Don't own Bayard, but I can understand why'd people consider it over Mainz. Bayard has more tools going for it with speed boost, reload boost and torp range, making it overall a more versatile ship.

 

Mainz is the more consistent damage farmer. Mainz is basically like a Chapa, but instead of radar you get fire chance and a bit more tankiness, so you sit somewhere safe and just burn down whatever gets in range. Mainz is basically T8 HE spam incarnate, with its combination of pen, dpm and fire chance and the psychological intimidation factor of a ship that throws out more shells per minute than anything else at T6 (including Cleveland and Akizuki, can be surpassed for a brief time by MBRB Bayard, but Mainz has that shell output permanently till it dies).

 

Overall, Mainz isn't crazy good, but if you get fed up and just want to have a lulzy time watching BBs melt, it can be solid.

50 minutes ago, Jethro_Grey said:

Personally, I prefer Bayard as it is more consistent in most situations. Mainz has only the AP dpm going for it, and that works mostly against broadside targets.  Bayard works in any situation. 

Mainz has respectable HE dpm too, which is more of its thing than the AP dpm. It's like a small Hindenburg, in that it will always have good dpm, but if you show broadside you die extra fast. And the extra pen makes it reliable damage. USN BBs hate dug in Mainz.

11 minutes ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

And a turtle back citadel and 10 torps a side with 6km Hydro... Only downside it has is concealment...

8 torps per side.

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Should be noted that the Bayard is noticably more agile, especially when you factor in the fact she has a engine boost (and is two knots faster than Mainz even when its not active), not to mention a faster rudder shift (1 second faster, slightly countered by Mainz having a 10m tighter turning radius)

 

And then there's the "small" matter of Bayard's main battery reload booster..

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After a somewhat protracted search for information over the last couple of days, I opted for the Mainz and regret nothing. Bayard has the edge with speed and concealment but Mainz has trollish armour, accurate guns and the HE pen advantage. I've seen 7-8k salvos against broadside targets with the AP at longer ranges too so IMO both shell types are viable. The lower speed hasn't been an issue, though I haven't had to chase down enemy DDs or flex across the map.

 

I'm biased, I'm a big fan of German cruisers and the Nurnberg was the first ship I bought a perma-camo for so having a tier 8 premium that plays like a grown-up version is exactly what I wanted.

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5 minutes ago, Strapps said:

After a somewhat protracted search for information over the last couple of days, I opted for the Mainz and regret nothing. Bayard has the edge with speed and concealment but Mainz has trollish armour, accurate guns and the HE pen advantage. I've seen 7-8k salvos against broadside targets with the AP at longer ranges too so IMO both shell types are viable. The lower speed hasn't been an issue, though I haven't had to chase down enemy DDs or flex across the map.

 

I'm biased, I'm a big fan of German cruisers and the Nurnberg was the first ship I bought a perma-camo for so having a tier 8 premium that plays like a grown-up version is exactly what I wanted.

It's one of the few  times in this game where you can't really go wrong either way.

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1 minute ago, lafeel said:

It's one of the few  times in this game where you can't really go wrong either way.

Agreed, it could come down to something simple such as which one you think is better looking (which is the Mainz, obviously).

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Bayard is more agile with better concealment. With its reload booster it is a very good destroyer hunter.

Mainz s a bit more of a long range spammer. Assuming you spec light cruisers to pen 32mm, all other light cruisers will rake IFHE. In that situation, Mainz has better HE penetration and far better fire chance than any of them.

AP dpm is ridiculous if you get broadsides.

 

I would go Mainz.

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7 hours ago, Strapps said:

After a somewhat protracted search for information over the last couple of days, I opted for the Mainz and regret nothing. Bayard has the edge with speed and concealment but Mainz has trollish armour, accurate guns and the HE pen advantage. I've seen 7-8k salvos against broadside targets with the AP at longer ranges too so IMO both shell types are viable. The lower speed hasn't been an issue, though I haven't had to chase down enemy DDs or flex across the map.

 

I'm biased, I'm a big fan of German cruisers and the Nurnberg was the first ship I bought a perma-camo for so having a tier 8 premium that plays like a grown-up version is exactly what I wanted.

And soon there will be München as the speedy teenage version.

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5 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

And soon there will be München as the speedy teenage version.

Could this be the start of a German ship renaissance? :cap_fainting:

 

EnchantedRectangularGhostshrimp-size_res

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WG finally realized that in order to make profit  they should release what the community wants, i.e. fake German stuff.

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6 minutes ago, Ocsimano18 said:

WG finally realized that in order to make profit  they should release what the community wants, i.e. fake German stuff.

tbf, the Mainz and München are based on actual blueprints that make actual sense. They are less fake than the GK and, having an actually new model, München is certainly less reused assets than most of the new stuff at high tiers.

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2 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

tbf, the Mainz and München are based on actual blueprints that make actual sense. They are less fake than the GK and, having an actually new model, München is certainly less reused assets than most of the new stuff at high tiers.

I just used dry humor to point out that Russian paper ships are badly received while German paper ships are welcomed by the community.

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6 minutes ago, Ocsimano18 said:

I just used dry humor to point out that Russian paper ships are badly received while German paper ships are welcomed by the community.

And here I am still hoping for the odd historical ship every once in awhile (can't even remember which was the last one...). Problem is, most of those would be low to mid tiers (up to 7, maybe 8), so less money for WG. I'll just keep dreaming.

So that this is not purely off-topic: Others have already said it: Both are pretty good, Mainz does more consistant damage and is tankier, Bayard is faster and stealthier. Your call.

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Just now, Ocsimano18 said:

I just used dry humor to point out that Russian paper ships are badly received while German paper ships are welcomed by the community.

Mostly is based on amount and performance compared to real life parameters. When Russia has 5 T10 cruisers for the smallest of the big navies represented in the game, as well as 5 T8 cruisers, with some being incredibly powerful for their tier due to unrealistically propped up stats you shouldn't be surprised if some people are irked, while Germany has actually quite few premium cruisers with Mainz being the third, while the previous cruisers are one T2 premium and the T8 Prinz Eugen that ranks among the most impotent T8 cruisers (still better than Hipper).

 

Obviously there is also a good few who overreact on the "Russian bias", but just from a numbers point of view. Just to put ship numbers in perspective, not counting Diana Lima, Russia has 17 premium or reward cruisers now. Germany has 5 (with two being released in the latest update).

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18 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

Mostly is based on amount and performance compared to real life parameters. When Russia has 5 T10 cruisers for the smallest of the big navies represented in the game, as well as 5 T8 cruisers, with some being incredibly powerful for their tier due to unrealistically propped up stats you shouldn't be surprised if some people are irked, while Germany has actually quite few premium cruisers with Mainz being the third, while the previous cruisers are one T2 premium and the T8 Prinz Eugen that ranks among the most impotent T8 cruisers (still better than Hipper).

 

Obviously there is also a good few who overreact on the "Russian bias", but just from a numbers point of view. Just to put ship numbers in perspective, not counting Diana Lima, Russia has 17 premium or reward cruisers now. Germany has 5 (with two being released in the latest update).

I find this one of the main problems with not-real ships: For real ships, there are (some) data available for their performance (e.g. speed, displacement, fire power) that WG roughly adheres to. For paper ships, they can just use any data they wish which often would not be feasible if the ships had been built (two examples from the top of my head: that way too thin superstructure on Kremlin or Lyon going nearly 30 knots with that hull shape).

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6 minutes ago, BruceRKF said:

I find this one of the main problems with not-real ships: For real ships, there are (some) data available for their performance (e.g. speed, displacement, fire power) that WG roughly adheres to. For paper ships, they can just use any data they wish which often would not be feasible if the ships had been built (two examples from the top of my head: that way too thin superstructure on Kremlin or Lyon going nearly 30 knots with that hull shape).

Kirov was a real ship. Has twice the reported rate of fire.

 

Things don't have to be blueprint only for WG to make up stats...

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25 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

Kirov was a real ship. Has twice the reported rate of fire.

 

Things don't have to be blueprint only for WG to make up stats...

I know, she had BB reload basically. That is why I said "roughly" ;)

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2 hours ago, Ocsimano18 said:

I just used dry humor to point out that Russian paper ships are badly received while German paper ships are welcomed by the community.

The germans had no tier 8 premium  after Prinz Eugen, aside of GZ, which was a disaster.

Also, Mainz  and M class were laid down and Siegfried ordered. While most recent russian premiums were just preliminary  design options at best. Odin and Aegir were rather ill recieved.

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13 hours ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

You do know the Mainz's HE DPM is also higher than all but 2 of the T10 cruisers, plus has 38mm of HE pen built in?

Bayard is a good ship When I tried it out as a rental, but it doesn't compete with the Mainz in shear reliable DPM...

 

You do realize that Bayard's standard HE DPM (211k) is already higher than that of Mainz (204k) and that Bayard can even reach 422k while reload booster is active (when it actually counts)?

 

Bayard with IFHE build has 37mm pen and 9% firechance, while Mainz with fire build has 38mm pen and 11% firechance.

 

Sure Mainz is less squishy, but also slow (32 knots). I rather take the speedboost on Bayard (40 knots and lots of maneuverability).

 

 

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18 minutes ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

Bayard with IFHE build has 37mm pen and 9% firechance, while Mainz with fire build has 38mm pen and 11% firechance.

This looks on paper closer than it is in reality though. 38 mm is a treshold, so falling just short of that means a lot. Similarly, yes, Bayard has 2% less fire chance per shell on an IFHE build, but also a shell output of 96 shells per minute, vs Mainz' 120 s/m, meaning not just does Bayard have about 82% of the fire setting capability per salvo, but also fires only 80% as many salvos in a minute.

 

Bayard can compensate somewhat with MBRB, but in pure constant fire setting, Mainz is only surpassed at T8 by CLs that drop IFHE. 

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14 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

This looks on paper closer than it is in reality though. 38 mm is a treshold, so falling just short of that means a lot. Similarly, yes, Bayard has 2% less fire chance per shell on an IFHE build, but also a shell output of 96 shells per minute, vs Mainz' 120 s/m, meaning not just does Bayard have about 82% of the fire setting capability per salvo, but also fires only 80% as many salvos in a minute.

 

Bayard can compensate somewhat with MBRB, but in pure constant fire setting, Mainz is only surpassed at T8 by CLs that drop IFHE. 

 

If you are into burning down BBs, that might be an argument. But don't forget that the reload booster allows quick follow-up fires after DCP. 

 

Against cruisers and DDs, Bayard's damage output in the decisive situations is just so much higher, it is not even funny. It will melt your Mainz before you know it. 

 

Less experienced players tend to underestimate the actual influence of reload boosters when they just calculate their additional damage output over the course of the game. What really counts is the short burst damage in the decisive moments. 

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