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DrMechano

The CC problem

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Ok so has anyone noticed a massive uptick in people just pushing the center of the map now that Flamu has done a 'Central Positioning' video and people seem to think if they hunker down at the center they'll get big results despite the fact Flamu specifically stated that it only works on "some maps" not ALL of them. Some just leave you asking for a crossfire if you try that tactic. We saw the same thing whenever a big CC posts a Two Brothers video of them going down the center and roflstomping people not realizing that the tactic is useful 1 out of 10 times and they got EXCEEDINGLY lucky that particular time. 

 

I think CCs as a whole need to be much more obvious about stating when and where to use their tactics, just offhand mentioning that "some maps" don't work with the tactic doesn't seem to be good enough.

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There will be CC's and there will always be sheep that follow them

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I think the problem is that CCs tend to simply be good players/entertainers and not good educators. Most of them have an instinctive understanding of the game and whenever they try to verbalize why a tactic works they fail because educating is not something they are very good at. Flamu uses a dangerous position that is valuable thanks to how it can leverage more angles against enemy ships and surprize enemy formations. In other words, it's valueble precisely because it's not done often and because there are team members that are holding more traditional positions that are used to anvil the enemy. Once it becomes a mainstay, the tactic ceases to be useful. This is only to be expected and no amount of disclaimers will fix this.

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8 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

I think CCs as a whole need to be much more obvious about stating when and where to use their tactics, just offhand mentioning that "some maps" don't work with the tactic doesn't seem to be good enough.

maybe harsh, but: if more players would use brain.exe some discussions (like WIP-ships) or behaviours (like you described) won't exist in a measurable way ^^

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The biggest problem is that too many players do not think.

CC usually explain what they do, when they do something unusual.

 

The center position only works when you have teammates on the flanks and you can setup flanking fire (either from the flanks or middle).

Middle positions should be reserved for slow BB, as there are not many other options for them. Do not go middle in a fast BB and force your slow teammates do go for flanks to setup crossfire.

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Just now, ColonelPete said:

The biggest problem is that too many players do not think.

CC usually explain what they do, when they do something unusual.

 

The center position only works when you have teammates on the flanks and you can setup flanking fire (either from the flanks or middle).

Middle positions should be reserved for slow BB, as there are not many other options for them. Do not go middle in a fast BB and force your slow teammates do go for flanks to setup crossfire.

Basically this.

 

Too many people see and try to imitate rather than taking some more time to examine whether its the correct choice or not to utilise said tactic. And as more players use said tactic eventually more and more players will become aware to it and react and even counter accordingly.

 

It is a very useful position, i find it works in maps with central island cover and usually mid-late game, although like anything results won't always be consistent due to large number of factors.

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You call it a CC problem. I call it a player problem. The stuff Flamu says isn't wrong, nor is it necessarily a failure as an educator, as @dasCKD seems to put it. Flamu seems more directed at people who have some idea of how the game works, but want advice on how to get better. It's not directed at people who need to be told how to breathe to not suffocate. It's not the fault of the educator if the contents are taken by people who were never intented to be adressed. If I go to a university lecture on advanced astrophysics and I don't understand anything but take the first few bits out of context, that also isn't the fault of the lecturer, who tailors content to the people who are actually intented to attent.

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He does not mention still that it works ONLY if your flanks all covered! If they are not and pretty much all BBs go in center then...hello smolensk,hello flanking venezia,hello torpedoes,hello BB AP from flanks. All in all he does not mention that this tactic(if not absolute all tactics) depends on your team positioning and the enemy team as well. 

But anyway most people who watch flamu can not thing for themselfs, if tomorrow flamu would say that (INSERT WEAK SHIP HERE) is OP, they would all believe him, same thing happened with Kronshtadt and Alaska:Kronshtadt was believed to be OP when in reality it was the easiest ship to counter by anything that is not covered in 16mm thanks to crap dispersion and the armor was mostly not there(how can you speak of having armor when your ship has a 15 and a 30mm citadel deck?,forget that it is covered in 27mm and has a bow o 25)

Alaska when it was introduced he did not like it,claiming that it was boring to play and that it needed desperate buff? Now Alaska is one of the most OP tier 9 ships,having almost no weaknesses besides the slow shells velocity. WG has done a good thing,limiting some of the CCs mouth, some of them whine/overreact to much,especially when they see a soviet ship.

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21 minutes ago, dasCKD said:

I think the problem is that CCs tend to simply be good players/entertainers and not good educators. Most of them have an instinctive understanding of the game and whenever they try to verbalize why a tactic works they fail because educating is not something they are very good at. Flamu uses a dangerous position that is valuable thanks to how it can leverage more angles against enemy ships and surprize enemy formations. In other words, it's valueble precisely because it's not done often and because there are team members that are holding more traditional positions that are used to anvil the enemy. Once it becomes a mainstay, the tactic ceases to be useful. This is only to be expected and no amount of disclaimers will fix this.

 

This basically, they also keep videos to a snappy 10-20 minutes with action packed replays because they KNOW that's what gets them the views. Instead of going over where and when to really apply the tactic. I've seen virtually no CCs ever teach about Map awareness, what to look for when because it's both something that is done through experience and is a very dry topic to get in to. They just seem to expect the audience to have the same map awareness level they do (Flamu does this by saying that BBs are great for leaning map awareness due to their slow reload and to keep watching the minimap but he rarely says EXACTLY what it is he is looking for, he did do this better in his second video admittedly but most people will watch one, think they get it and ignore the rest)...which is hardly ever the case. They're great entertainers and terrible educators. People, however, do boil there lesson down in to 'always go center no matter the map' instead of taking in to consideration the map, enemy positions, allied positions and so on.

 

Despite what Bunny_Lover says, sure his videos ARE aimed at people who are looking to get better and improve but those aren't the majority watching his videos are they?

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8 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

The biggest problem is that too many players do not think.

CC usually explain what they do, when they do something unusual.

 

The center position only works when you have teammates on the flanks and you can setup flanking fire (either from the flanks or middle).

Middle positions should be reserved for slow BB, as there are not many other options for them. Do not go middle in a fast BB and force your slow teammates do go for flanks to setup crossfire.

It's worse. It makes 'good viewing' as it's something different. I've watched Flamu repeatedly use this tactic, and sometimes go on to sacrifice his team by running away when it doesn't work , and then berate them for getting it wrong.

 

I've also played in a battle with Flambass where he ran up the centre channel on Two Brothers with the only radar ship in our team. Our flank got bogged down by DD's perma spotting us allowing red BB's to shoot us down if we attempted a push. Flambass's response was to tell us to push, as we needed the caps, whilst he made good viewing doing sweet FA in the middle, playing with a red CL with the radar that could have helped counter the DD's.

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27 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

Ok so has anyone noticed a massive uptick in people just pushing the center of the map now that Flamu has done a 'Central Positioning' video and people seem to think if they hunker down at the center they'll get big results despite the fact Flamu specifically stated that it only works on "some maps" not ALL of them. Some just leave you asking for a crossfire if you try that tactic. We saw the same thing whenever a big CC posts a Two Brothers video of them going down the center and roflstomping people not realizing that the tactic is useful 1 out of 10 times and they got EXCEEDINGLY lucky that particular time. 

 

I think CCs as a whole need to be much more obvious about stating when and where to use their tactics, just offhand mentioning that "some maps" don't work with the tactic doesn't seem to be good enough.

I think that is awesome! I prefer a BB in the middle of the map rather than sitting at A or J line spamming "Cap A/B/C"

 

Spoiler

.... which is usual BB potato behaviour.

 

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11 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

I've also played in a battle with Flambass where he ran up the centre channel on Two Brothers with the only radar ship in our team. Our flank got bogged down by DD's perma spotting us allowing red BB's to shoot us down if we attempted a push. Flambass's response was to tell us to push, as we needed the caps, whilst he made good viewing doing sweet FA in the middle, playing with a red CL with the radar that could have helped counter the DD's.

Every time I see a CC rushing the middle on Two Brothers, I want to smack them around.

They put their team at a disadvantage for views. The only reason it works out sometimes is because of the inability of the enemy team.

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1 minute ago, ColonelPete said:

Every time I see a CC rushing the middle on Two Brothers, I want to smack them around.

They put their team at a disadvantage for views. The only reason it works out sometimes is because of the inability of the enemy team.

Dis time I agree wholeheartedly with you :D Thanx for saying it as it is :cap_like:

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15 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

Despite what Bunny_Lover says, sure his videos ARE aimed at people who are looking to get better and improve but those aren't the majority watching his videos are they?

Problem is, it is not up to Flamu to decide who watches him, nor is he required to try address the bottom of the viewership. It's also not that he deliberately seeks the views from these kind of people, so, them ending up there is nothing you can blame him for. Thus it still is a player issue, not a CC issue.

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8 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Every time I see a CC rushing the middle on Two Brothers, I want to smack them around.

They put their team at a disadvantage for views. The only reason it works out sometimes is because of the inability of the enemy team.

Jingles is one of the few CCs who has stated he's stopped posting those videos BECAUSE of the effect it has on the playerbase and having to repeatedly state in the video that this was incredibly lucky, that the tactic usually fails miserably even for a Unicum. Still you get CCs posting replays of themselves doing this and other stupid tactics (the central positioning isn't a stupid tactic but it is situational) because it gets them views.

 

That's what a lot of people forget that CCs are entertainers first and educators a far distant second, so they'll do all sorts of stuff just to get their viewer count on Youtube higher and their subs on Twitch higher.

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perhaps the cc can make a series of videos explaining the whole battle tactics on each map then all can learn from them.

 

everyone should ask them perhaps have them video series as a training guide .

 

wish you all well

 

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54 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

There will be CC's and there will always be sheep that follow them

Just like the players that like to go down the middle of Two Brothers..

 

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4 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

Jingles is one of the few CCs who has stated he's stopped posting those videos BECAUSE of the effect it has on the playerbase and having to repeatedly state in the video that this was incredibly lucky, that the tactic usually fails miserably even for a Unicum. Still you get CCs posting replays of themselves doing this and other stupid tactics (the central positioning isn't a stupid tactic but it is situational) because it gets them views.

 

That's what a lot of people forget that CCs are entertainers first and educators a far distant second, so they'll do all sorts of stuff just to get their viewer count on Youtube higher and their subs on Twitch higher.

Yet some CC's will continually berate their team and the player base in general, as the worst thing. Players are told to go look at CC content and watch streamers to see how to play. It's how most CC's started, educating on mechanics and individual line and ship playstyles.  I don't see many going back and revisiting their old out of date previous game meta and mechanic video's showing new players how to play better or play individual ships these days. Doing that doesn't get their stream viewer count up nearly as well as doing something outlandish, risky or throwing hissy fits all the time.

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I quite like what a middle run on two brothers can do if the enemy team have committed hard to the flanks. 

It's something you don't expect but clearly it's not usually a game winning move.

 

We have to view CCs as people we can learn from but also entertainers to their viewers.

 

 

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No offense but you can't blame someone when people clearly misinterpret him. He's not responsible for the stupidity of other people.

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I mean, CCs shouldn’t take all the blame here.

Sure, CCs often don’t explain stuff well enough. Be it something as simple as “your ship need to do this” or something as tactical as “this is viable only if this, that and that happens”. But... I can’t really blame them for that too much. Those explanations are going to be entertaining for very few people, the CC may think it’s obvious, and it’s not like the viewers will take note anyway.

The big problem is the viewers. All they hear is “Flamu said go mid, real good tactic, veri stronk”. They ignore ALL of the why or how, and try to do it in their own - quite often very poor - gameplay style. And then despite them failing they refuse to admit said failure because “the CC said so” even tho what the CC actually said is nowhere near what That player is doing.

 

It starts off with a CC, but the part of the chain that breaks every time is the viewer

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Imagine blaming your teams stupidity on a CC's actually senseful guide.

 

Flamu might be hard on stupid teammate's decisions, but he does know what hes talking about.

Its just how people convert it into actual gameplay.

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