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State of BBs

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Please do not consider this as whining (though I'm sure many will), but rather as an attempt of an objective look at the current state of BBs:

 

- BBs have no counter to DDs or HE spammers (exceptions GK and Missi with hydro/radar)

- There are now quite a few supercruisers that pretty much inflict the same damage as a BB but with faster reload and more mobility

- BBs are damage farms for the above mentioned due to fire mechanics causing percentual dmg rather than a fixed amount

- It's hardly worth shooting AP anymore (due to overpens, shatters (yes), bounces), more and more BBs are shooting HE which pains me to look at

- Overpens are a disease. Don't tell me that a DD or light cruiser with half a dozen 16" holes in them continue to fight. Overpens really need to go.

- AA is generally not sufficient with a few exceptions

- Submarines ignore torp protection and simply cannot be killed by a BB, there simply is no mechanic for a BB to sink a sub, even when spottetd.

 

So, why would anyone play a BB? Just because the off-chance of catching a cruiser broadside? It's no wonder BBs hang out near the map border because if they push, they usually (not always but usually) get farmed for dmg by HE spammers or walls of torp skills with pretty much zero counter (except for certain ships like GK that has hydro or Missi that has radar) or support.

Think about it, as a BB you have one chance every 30 seconds, and with that one single attempt, you get massive spread and more often than not, plenty of overpens. Overpens need to be removed, fire mechanics needs to be changed to do a fixed amount of damage rather than a percentual damage. I hate seeing BBs patrolling near the map borders, but I do understand why they do it because I play lots of BBs as well and each time you push, your team turns and runs, throwing you to the wolves. Not their fault necessarily, but it seems to be an on-going theme. Heck even me, when I play a DM, Zao or Hindi (or <insert random HE spamming DD here), I farm BBs for dmg. And on one side it's nice but on the other hand, knowing what it's like to play a BB, I feel bad for my targets.

I can't provide a perfect solution, but it is my opinion that BBs are not balanced in the current game meta.

And yes I know there will be (super) unicums that will disagree, but looking at the state of affairs from the point of view of the average player, BBs often simply aren't worth getting or playing.

 

Edit: The fact that tanking doesn't pay off in terms of experience gained doesn't help. A BBs primary and/or secondary job is tanking damage. But even if you do, you pretty much get nothing for it. Tank 3m+ damage and still end up in the bottom half, despite saving your teammates from taking that damage. Just another bite of food for thought.

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1 minute ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

point of view of the average player, BBs often simply aren't worth getting or playing

 

Because your average player does not know how to position themselves correctly: it's either maximum long-range uselessness or over-committing at the first opportunity.

 

In general. battleships are fine. It is the most forgiving class in the game (except for the class which shall not be named), has rather large battle impact and scales reasonably well with player skill. It's also the most popular class so it really does not need any buffs.

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Overpens are the reason I stopped playing BB, really struggle to do over 50-60k most games where as I can do 100k+ without much trouble in a CA.

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22 minutes ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

BBs have no counter to DDs

I think I have just wet my self :cap_fainting:

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14 minutes ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

I farm BBs for dmg.

 

Meanwhile, your own stats totaly disagree here

image.thumb.png.0bc73459cfa23bd3bdaba2b7abc34c7d.png

BBs beat your Cruisers in every aspect: Higher WR, more kill, and 45% more damage.

 

People got used to BBs being an easy to play "brain-turned-off"-class. Now after YEARS BBs need to think a little bit about what they do, and everyone is going crazy (not only blaiming the OP here). Meanwhile, most of the time people do considerably worse playing Cruisers or DDs, but they still say those 2 classes are overpowered :cap_fainting:

 

image.png.5b379a46ce2b486548c4eb4fd66f3e9b.png

 

I see no issues whatsoever...

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5 minutes ago, Cyclops_ said:

I think I have just wet my self :cap_fainting:

Your point being what?

 

19 minutes ago, Kartoffelmos said:

 

Because your average player does not know how to position themselves correctly: it's either maximum long-range uselessness or over-committing at the first opportunity.

 

In general. battleships are fine. It is the most forgiving class in the game (except for the class which shall not be named), has rather large battle impact and scales reasonably well with player skill. It's also the most popular class so it really does not need any buffs.

But this is about the average player and having fun? As I said (super) unicums will disagree because they are really good, but for the VAST MAJORITY of players, what do you think?

And what do my stats have to do with the point I'm trying to make?

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8 minutes ago, Ragoutrabbit said:

Overpens are the reason I stopped playing BB, really struggle to do over 50-60k most games where as I can do 100k+ without much trouble in a CA.

 

Yes? No. Please atleast stick to the fact when trying to make a point. Reality is: you are much better in BBs.

 

image.thumb.png.5740d0083089a6eb5317f3f6c41b0d38.png

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5 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Meanwhile, your own stats totaly disagree here

image.thumb.png.0bc73459cfa23bd3bdaba2b7abc34c7d.png

BBs beat your Cruisers in every aspect: Higher WR, more kill, and 45% more damage.

 

People got used to BBs being an easy to play "brain-turned-off"-class. Now after YEARS BBs need to think a little bit about what they do, and everyone is going crazy (not only blaiming the OP here). Meanwhile, most of the time people do considerably worse playing Cruisers or DDs, but they still say those 2 classes are overpowered :cap_fainting:

 

image.png.5b379a46ce2b486548c4eb4fd66f3e9b.png

 

I see no issues whatsoever...

If you think that a BBs job is to sail along a map border, then you are correct.

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9 minutes ago, Ragoutrabbit said:

I can do 100k+ without much trouble in a CA.

Are you sure about that? 

 

29 minutes ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

The fact that tanking doesn't pay off in terms of experience gained doesn't help.

Teamplay should be rewarded more. Spotting, tanking (either by armor or maneuverability) and things like smoking up friendlies or hydroing torpedoes for friendlies. 

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1 minute ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

And what do my stats have to do with the point I'm trying to make?

 

Confirmation bias, which is not whats actually happening.

You think you only get overpens/shatters/bounces with BBs and burn everything to crisp with Cruisers. In reality, your BBs perform better than your Cruisers (even recently). So its in your head only. Im not saying, getting burned to death is fun, but there are ways to work against that.

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3 minutes ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

And what do my stats have to do with the point I'm trying to make?

 

Everything. Else I can just claim whatever I want, while its disconnected from the reality.

 

2 minutes ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

If you think that a BBs job is to sail along a map border, then you are correct.

 

What are you trying to say here? elaborate?

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46 minutes ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

 

  1. - BBs have no counter to DDs or HE spammers (exceptions GK and Missi with hydro/radar)
  2. - There are now quite a few supercruisers that pretty much inflict the same damage as a BB but with faster reload and more mobility
  3. - BBs are damage farms for the above mentioned due to fire mechanics causing percentual dmg rather than a fixed amount
  4. - It's hardly worth shooting AP anymore (due to overpens, shatters (yes), bounces), more and more BBs are shooting HE which pains me to look at
  5. - Overpens are a disease. Don't tell me that a DD or light cruiser with half a dozen 16" holes in them continue to fight. Overpens really need to go.
  6. - AA is generally not sufficient with a few exceptions
  7. - Submarines ignore torp protection and simply cannot be killed by a BB, there simply is no mechanic for a BB to sink a sub, even when spottetd.
  1. DD are the counter to BB, not the other way around. Devestating Strikes have a tendency to remove HE spammers quickly.
  2. No, they do not. BB eat Supercruiser for breakfast. They are just a bigger portion.
  3. Let them farm damage. That keeps your team save and gives you time to remove part of the opposition.
  4. Sounds like someone needs to work on his aim. I suggest to watch good players play BB. They heavily rely on AP.
  5. But they do. And still, no DD player is happy about 6 BB overpens on his ship.
  6. Do you want to swap AA with DD?
  7. They are still in testing and we will hopefully not see them in Random. And no, BB will not be the class having problems with subs.
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18 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Yes? No. Please atleast stick to the fact when trying to make a point. Reality is: you are much better in BBs.

 

image.thumb.png.5740d0083089a6eb5317f3f6c41b0d38.png

Account I haven't really used since 2017 LOL.

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Vor 4 Minuten, ColonelPete sagte:

Let them farm damage. That keeps your team save and gives you time to remove part of the opposition.

That's not the case anymore you get chunked way to fast in an BB.

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7 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:
  1. DD are the counter to BB, not the other way around. Devestating Strikes have a tendency to remove HE spammers quickly.
  2. No, they do not. BB eat Supercruiser for breakfast. They are just a bigger portion.
  3. Let them farm damage. That keeps your team save and gives you time to remove part of the opposition.
  4. Sounds like someone needs to work on his aim. I suggest to watch good players play BB. They heavily rely on AP.
  5. But they do. And still, no DD player is happy about 6 BB overpens on his ship.
  6. Do you want to change AA with DD?
  7. They are still in testing and we will hopefully not see them in Random. And no, BB will not be the class having problems with subs.

1) If you have a DD spotted, you may be able to sink them with 2 salvos, if you are lucky. On the other hand, a well played DD torp salvo can sink a BB quite easily. And it's imply impossible to sink a DD with a single salvo from a BB.

2) Have you tried to sink a russian supercruiser (i.e. Stalingrad) when it's angled? Good luck!

3) I agree, but why not reward them for doing that, i.e. why not reward tanking?

4) I agree with you on that but still, 200m+ of dispersion really isn't helping at all. I can't count the number of times where my shots were spot-on in terms of aim-ahead but all went short or long or resulted in an overpen.

5) Of course they are not happy, but 6 AP overpens do less damage, even in terms of percentage, than 6 torpedo hits and let me remind you, BBs have no counter to torps (except German BBs with hydro).

6) If I could change my AA with that of a Halland, hell yeah!

7)  I hope so, but what do you think a BB is going to do against a sub? There is nothing a BB CAN do against a sub.

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The only reliable BB are thunderer,ohio,kremlin(for now)and legendary yamato(also for now) if WG keeps introducing more and more HE spammers that also get smoke( see the new OP american cruiser) and submarines make it to random battles then it is RIP BB. German BBs are a joke playing even with a survivability build,the guns are way way to inconsistent, nevermind playing them with full secondary meme cause that is pure suicide,lower tier american BB are target practice for HE spammer thanks to the fast speed of 21 knots))). Japanese ones are not better as well,guns tend to be troll sometimes and you do not get much HE protection up until Izumo. British ones need a rework, and the soviet ones are completely OP/broken exception being izmail which is a floating citadel for any 38cm BB or higher and to some degree soyuz thanks to questionable dispersion. 

Overall WG needs to stop introducing absurd ships like smolensk,kleber,worcester,kitakaze,colbert. But do not worry ITA BB will solve at least the to many over pens problem thanks to SAP.

I am glad they consider Slava: a BB that can be punished easier than a conqueror/thunderer by any other BB and that gets destroyed just as easy when focused in exchange to reliable guns where shells actually go where you aim.

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3 minutes ago, Shrez said:

That's not the case anymore you get chunked way to fast in an BB.

Then you are in the wrong position or not handling fire correctly or both.

2 minutes ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

1) If you have a DD spotted, you may be able to sink them with 2 salvos, if you are lucky. On the other hand, a well played DD salvo can sink a BB. And it's imply impossible to sink a DD with a single salvo from a BB.

2) Have you tried to sink a russian supercruiser (i.e. Stalingrad) when it's angled? Good luck!

3) I agree, but why not reward them for doing that, i.e. why not reward tanking?

4) I agree with you on that but still, 200m+ of dispersion really isn't helping at all. I can't count the number of times where my shots were spot-on in terms of aim-ahead but all went short or long or resulted in an overpen.

5) Of course they are not happy, but 6 AP overpens do less damage, even in terms of percentage, than 6 torpedo hits and let me remind you, BBs have no counter to torps (except German BBs with hydro).

6) If I could change my AA with that of a Halland, hell yeah!

7)  I hope so, but what do you think a BB is going to do against a sub? There is nothing a BB CAN do against a sub.

  1. When a whole DD salvo hits your BB, work on your WASD. And while rare, one BB salvo can sink a DD.
  2. You shoot at the unangled one or get into a better position.
  3. It is rewarded.
  4. WG does not want BB players to remove all enemy cruisers in the first five minutes of the match. That is bit frustrating for the cruiser players. Fun fact, it still happens from time to time.
  5. A BB makes these hits MUCH faster than the DD does the 6 torp hits and is free to change to HE. The counter to torps is spelled WASD. Many BB players can go a whole match without recieving one torp hit, while spotting multiple torps.
  6. Do you really think that Halland has the typical DD AA? And Halland has no smoke. That is like a BB with no heal. Do you still want to swap?
  7. A BB does not care if he gets torped by subs or DD. Sink the rest of the enemy team faster than the enemy sinks your team and you are safe from subs.
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1 hour ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

I can't provide a perfect solution, but it is my opinion that BBs are not balanced in the current game meta.

That's why we have limit on useless BBs in CB.

 

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14 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Then you are in the wrong position or not handling fire correctly or both.

  1. When a whole DD salvo hits your BB, work on your WASD. And while rare, one BB salvo can sink a DD.
  2. You shoot at the unangled one or get into a better position.
  3. It is rewarded.
  4. WG does not want BB players to remove all enemy cruisers in the first five minutes of the match. That is bit frustrating for the cruiser players. Fun fact, it still happens from time to time.
  5. A BB makes these hits MUCH faster than the DD does the 6 torp hits and is free to change to HE. The counter to torps is spelled WASD. Many BB players can go a whole match without recieving one torp hit, while spotting multiple torps.
  6. Do you really think that Halland has the typical DD AA? And Halland has no smoke. That is like a BB with no heal. Do you still want to swap?
  7. A BB does not care if he gets torped by subs or DD. Sink the rest of the enemy team faster than the enemy sinks your team and you are safe from subs.

Sorry Sir, I see you are more experienced than me, but...

1) When was the last time a BB salvo sank a DD compared to the other way around?

2) Sorry but that is not useful. Sure, if a broadside boat is sighted, I shoot at it but with this kind of dispersion and RNG, the likelehood of sinking something is rather low.

3) Not it's not!!! Don't claim something that clearly is not the case. Tanking 3-4m pot dmg gets you nothing, zero, null, zilch. Or if it does, it's irrelevant.

4) Sure, but what about BBs? This meta is encouraging BBs to patrol the map borders. I don't know if that's what WG want, it might be, but it's not my idea of fun.

5) Exactly my later point. Why bother shooting AP? Which means, what's the point of playing a BB? Even if you have expert loader, i.e. half the time to change ammo when fully loaded, it is of little use because in 15 seconds, cruisers and DDs (and even BBs) can change course. And I rest my point that seeing a BB shoot HE is painful. Besides, a salvo of torps does more damage to a BB than a salvo from  a BB to a DD because of overpens. Unless, that is, you want BBs to shoot HE all the time due to reload times.

6) It certainly is an exception but when you see a DD shooting down 3 times the planes that a BB does, don't you think something is wrong? A Halland can at least move quickly and has a third the spotting range of a BB.

7) This is just stupid, pardon my french. Sure, I can always say... just sink the enemy and you'll win. Not helpful.

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11 minutes ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

I agree, thanks for that.

 

You missunderstood @DariusJacek. Try reading again and keep in mind the concept of sarcasm.

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1 hour ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

Please do not consider this as whining (though I'm sure many will), but rather as an attempt of an objective look at the current state of BBs:

Very well, let's have a look.

1 hour ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

- BBs have no counter to DDs or HE spammers (exceptions GK and Missi with hydro/radar)

Destroyers are not uniform, and neither are HE spammers. Battleships can, for a start, shoot at the destroyer. There are also destroyers who do not depend on torpedo for damage. You are therefore talking about a subsection of particular types of destroyers, namely the torpedo boats. These are amongst the easiest type of ship to counter in the game, as manuvering is often sufficient to negate most damage.

1 hour ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

- There are now quite a few supercruisers that pretty much inflict the same damage as a BB but with faster reload and more mobility

The supercruisers DO NOT inflict the same damage as battleships. Battleships typically have a significant DPM advantage, armor advantage, HP advantage, and the ability to overmatch a good number of cruisers that supercruisers simply lacks. A Pueto Rico being charged down by a Hindenburg has far fewer options than a Montana, for example. Battleships also have significantly more penetration than supercruisers as an aggreate, which means that they can hit citadels at a larger range further magnifying their damage.

1 hour ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

- BBs are damage farms for the above mentioned due to fire mechanics causing percentual dmg rather than a fixed amount

Fire is a negligent amount of damage percentage to any cruiser. Even in ships like the Smolensk, hard damage contributes far more than fire damage does. Only gunboat destroyers really typically do more fire damage than hard damage.

1 hour ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

- It's hardly worth shooting AP anymore (due to overpens, shatters (yes), bounces), more and more BBs are shooting HE which pains me to look at

Battleship AP is the biggest source of damage inflicted on cruisers thanks to overmatch creep, velocity creep,  and citadel hits. Sometimes shells overpen, other times shells randomly citadel a perfectly angled cruiser.

1 hour ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

- Overpens are a disease. Don't tell me that a DD or light cruiser with half a dozen 16" holes in them continue to fight. Overpens really need to go.

-_-

16 inches is around 40 cm or 0.4 meters. The Shimakaze, one of the smallest of the tier X destroyers, has a length of 126 meters. A hole with a diameter of half a percent of a warship's length doesn't significantly hamper the vessel, believe it or not.

1 hour ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

- AA is generally not sufficient with a few exceptions

EVERYONE suffers from this, not just battleships.

1 hour ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

- Submarines ignore torp protection and simply cannot be killed by a BB, there simply is no mechanic for a BB to sink a sub, even when spottetd.

Like above, this is a problem that also afflicts many cruisers. To be semantic, battleships can shoot submarines with their guns and hit subs beneath the surface. Subs are broken, but this is not a battleship problem.

1 hour ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

So, why would anyone play a BB? Just because the off-chance of catching a cruiser broadside?

Or on the off chance that battleships chunk a cruiser through overpens for 15k damage. Or for citadels through the nose. Or to citadel other battleships (battleships being the only class that, in aggreate, can citadel battleships consistently).

1 hour ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

It's no wonder BBs hang out near the map border because if they push, they usually (not always but usually) get farmed for dmg by HE spammers or walls of torp skills with pretty much zero counter (except for certain ships like GK that has hydro or Missi that has radar) or support.

Think about it, as a BB you have one chance every 30 seconds, and with that one single attempt, you get massive spread and more often than not, plenty of overpens.

Ohio's, Thunderer's and Republique's guns are all around 20 seconds to reload which is similar to what cruisers also get. Complaining about RNG is also fraught by this point.

1 hour ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

Overpens need to be removed, fire mechanics needs to be changed to do a fixed amount of damage rather than a percentual damage. I hate seeing BBs patrolling near the map borders, but I do understand why they do it because I play lots of BBs as well and each time you push, your team turns and runs, throwing you to the wolves. Not their fault necessarily, but it seems to be an on-going theme. Heck even me, when I play a DM, Zao or Hindi (or <insert random HE spamming DD here), I farm BBs for dmg. And on one side it's nice but on the other hand, knowing what it's like to play a BB, I feel bad for my targets.

You know, not every single cruiser is an HE spammer. There were close ranged DPM monsters like Des Moines and sneaky little bastards like the Minotaur. Do you know what happened to them? Battleships happened. Battleships just ran in, crushing cruisers regardless of angling, and moved on. What this resulted in is for cruisers to favor longer and longer ranges to stay out of a BB's reach. Battleships are too tough to reliably kill even if they are caught with their pants down. Their guns cleanly overmatch through a cruiser's nose and so even sucessful ambushes are costly for the cruiser. Cruiser AP is also not typically sufficient to enter a battleship's citadel armor, and so cruisers without that hard hitting AP or torpedo set either resort to long ranged spam or die out. HE spam meta is fully the fault of the battleship class.

1 hour ago, ArsenicIndigo said:

I can't provide a perfect solution, but it is my opinion that BBs are not balanced in the current game meta.

And yes I know there will be (super) unicums that will disagree, but looking at the state of affairs from the point of view of the average player, BBs often simply aren't worth getting or playing.

I can. Battleship citadel armor should be reduced to 200-300 mm maximum to make it so that cruisers can meaningfully engage battleships with their guns. Cruiser armor should be buffed so that few if any battleships in their tier will be able to overpen their midsection. This will allow cruisers to play close to the front lines and bring their hydroacoustic search to bear which naturally also alleviates the torpedo threat. Cruiers playing close to the front line will also mean that max ranged HE sniping won't be anywhere nearly as appealing as cruisers would rather use their HE DPM to meaningfully engage each other instead of farming a single tier X battleship at max ranged for 15 minutes and still probably fail to kill them. The fragile cruiser/invincible BB meta has caused this HE plague, and it can be removed in just the same way.

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have to find it funny just how hard and fast a large amount of players are saying "spreadsheet says your wrong"

 

stats always prove the point of the person using them if they know how to use stats correctly and reality is far less important than perception , after all WG keep telling you the spreadsheet says CV's are fine your having a fun and engaging time. and we all know thats the truth .. right?

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I think they are fine in general with the exception;

 

If a CV really focuses you and the player is good ..then you are dead in circa 5-10 mins and there is nothing really you can do. This does not happen that often for me tho (or at least not until end game when I've at least had some fun before hand). And also, you occasionally get sweet revenge yourself in end game when a tasty CV is detected .. and its broadside nom nom nom nom.

 

There are a lot of fast Torps flying around these days .. but I can just about manage it.

 

THE DEAL BREAKER … SUBs.  Please be a different game mode!!!! I don't want Subs in my game xx

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ragoutrabbit said:

I can do 100k+ without much trouble in a CA.

Switch drugs, you are delusional.

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