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dolphin_eu

radar in ranked

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there should be equal radar in each ranked team, having a team with no radar against a team with 2 radar is........ hard to win and frustrating.  (second screenshot is from the game that directly followed the first one)

1.jpg

2.jpg

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You basicly put that Belfast in the enemy team by picking Fiji tho...

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13 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

You basicly put that Belfast in the enemy team by picking Fiji tho...

Not much he can do if he wants to play cruisers and doesn't have Belfast or Atlanta himself though..

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Contrary to popular belief, ranked is called as such as teams are not 12 vs 12 and everything is same tier.

 

But it is random by all means, so it is to be expected to have teams of random composition.

I have noted that if enemy team has more radars then it is automatically a win for enemy but if we have more radars then it is not automatic win for us.

So it is all in players mind.

 

I do agree that it should be more equall and Belfast should be treated as CV, so must be opposed by another Belfast, as it is OP in such format.  

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10 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

Not much he can do if he wants to play cruisers and doesn't have Belfast or Atlanta himself though..

 

Well then he shouldnt complain? I played Fiji myself back in the first T7 ranked season. So I put Belfasts in the enemy team quite often myself. Was the best ranked season ive ever had. And that says it all I guess.

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8 minutes ago, Sir_Grzegorz said:

 

I have noted that if enemy team has more radars then it is automatically a win for enemy but if we have more radars then it is not automatic win for us.

So it is all in players mind.

 

Not sure I agree with that directly though.
I noticed of course that the radar heavy teams tend to win on average, but I'd say that so far my experience has been a 60/40 split in their favour.
A redeeming factor with Belfasts on the enemy team, is that our side seems to want to blow up that bastard as soon as he's spotted, even more so than an enemy Atlanta.
Quite many games I've been in have ended up with their Belfasts dead early, while we proceeded to win with 3-4 ships remaining (a solid win).

If anything, I'd say the Belfast games are the most volatile in general.
My experience has been that its a stomp one way or the other, with radar-less games being the closest.
Strange that.

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1 hour ago, dolphin_eu said:

there should be equal radar in each ranked team, having a team with no radar against a team with 2 radar is........ hard to win and frustrating.  (second screenshot is from the game that directly followed the first one)

 

 

Are you asking WG, a company that bases everything in RNG, to be fair? Keep waiting. 

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1 hour ago, dolphin_eu said:

there should be equal radar in each ranked team, having a team with no radar against a team with 2 radar is........ hard to win and frustrating.  (second screenshot is from the game that directly followed the first one)

1.jpg

2.jpg

 

While I understand that it can be irritating when this happens I can't help but look at those screenshots and think "Meh, no problem".

 

Both the Shiratsuyu and the Skane have 10km torps (according to the wiki - I haven't played Skane) so torping the Belfast in smoke or using torps to force him out is simplicity itself.  In both cases you have BBs on your team that can push the Belfast or just push up enough that he smokes in order to pew-pew them and then the DDs send their torps.

 

The Belfast is a ship that is all reputation. Sure, in the hands of a good players they can be devastating, but, as with all ships, the majority of Belfast players are terrible. If the Belfast player is a good player then he would wreck in any ship.

 

The Atlanta is even less of a threat.

 

Just play smart and don't stress it.

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34 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

Both the Shiratsuyu and the Skane have 10km torps (according to the wiki - I haven't played Skane) so torping the Belfast in smoke or using torps to force him out is simplicity itself.  In both cases you have BBs on your team that can push the Belfast or just push up enough that he smokes in order to pew-pew them and then the DDs send their torps.

 

Sorry to hijack the discussion, but do you have any input on how I should approach a Belfast or Atlanta that is parked safely behind an island, when playing as Jervis?

Last night I was facing Atlanta and Belfast, where I was going wide on A cap in order to spot any radar cruisers.
Saw the Atlanta and a Shiratsuyu parked up in the cap (it was the one where there is a big island crossing deep into the cap, where he is shielded from fire).
While my plan to spot for radar worked, I found that our team were slowly losing the C and B cap, while I was out of ideas on how I could support my A cap further.
We had a Z39 parked up in A as well (also shielded by the same island as the Atlanta was humping on the other side), so that cap by itself was still firmly contested.

I could not really approach the cap with Atlanta there zoning me out, and I could not smoke up to shoot as me spotting them was what was keeping the ships spotted (and thus in check) to begin with. Torping was of course out of the question, as my 7 km range was far too short for the 8,5km radar.

I ended up with being very passive at that flank, and left with the feeling that (apart from my spotting) I was being a burden on my team as we were slowly losing the game and I couldn't find a way to be more useful.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. :-)

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6 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

Sorry to hijack the discussion, but do you have any input on how I should approach a Belfast or Atlanta that is parked safely behind an island, when playing as Jervis?

You dont, thats why you have other DDs with longer torps

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49 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

 

While I understand that it can be irritating when this happens I can't help but look at those screenshots and think "Meh, no problem".

 

Both the Shiratsuyu and the Skane have 10km torps (according to the wiki - I haven't played Skane) so torping the Belfast in smoke or using torps to force him out is simplicity itself.  In both cases you have BBs on your team that can push the Belfast or just push up enough that he smokes in order to pew-pew them and then the DDs send their torps.

 

The Belfast is a ship that is all reputation. Sure, in the hands of a good players they can be devastating, but, as with all ships, the majority of Belfast players are terrible. If the Belfast player is a good player then he would wreck in any ship.

 

The Atlanta is even less of a threat.

 

Just play smart and don't stress it.

With all due respect, with the current state of ranked games, Belfast is a click-battle-to-win ship. What you say is all true and correct, however not when half the team is HE spamming and the other half is sitting behind an island (the same island). CBs might be different, but this ranked season, the Belfast is king.

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Vor 2 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

You basicly put that Belfast in the enemy team by picking Fiji tho...

Oh.... yeah that could be true, so no Fiji anymore.Thx.

 

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Hmmm did you notice something, at this tier 7 ranked and tier 7 in general? NO? Well Atlanta,belfast,indianapolis all of these get a radar, all of these are premium ships. GET IT? Radar is locked behind a paywall at tier 7, possible solution in case of the so called CoMPetiTIVE is to restrict any reward/premium ship. Only tech tree ones which are available to everyone should be able to participate,they are testing this in WOT so do not scream that it is not possible NO NO NO.

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6 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

You dont, thats why you have other DDs with longer torps

Well I didn't mean "approach" in the litteral sense, but more on how to approach the situation.
I knew that we had to keep them lit so that the BBs could possibly get shots in on the spotted targets, but apart from that I was at a loss regarding what "more" I could have done.
I would of course have loved to reinforce the C flank where our team was potatoing, but that would have made me spend 2-3 minutes sailing to the other side, while also costing our team the spotting.
Going into B was also out of the question, as their Belfast and Atlanta covered both entrances to it.

Was spotting them the best play in such a situation, or should I generally try to do other things in a Jervis due to my short ranged torps?

(like having the Z39 on the flank to spot instead, with me holding down the cap?)

I love the Jervis for its DD hunting capabilities, but against teams with few DDs (which I cant pick a fight with) and heavy radar bunkered up in cover, I'm just not sure what I'm supposed to do to improve our team's situation apart from the spotting.

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Yes I know what you mean and the answer is - you dont, plain and simple, been there done that, Jervis is precisely the way ahe is because of balance reasons, if a Belfast and 2 dds park their bu**s in say far end of the cap that has some island cover trading smokes you cant do sh**, litterally, they will know if you entet it and either radar you or the dd will dart out to spot you and then whole team will focus you anf either kill you or maim you so much you become useless for the remainder of the match, you cant spot them from far couse of smoke and even your BBs cant push im because of torp walls and enemy BBs parked behind the islands...

 

Thats why it is important to be agressive early and take caps, thats why you lose every time you get a 10-liner in your team - map and cap control...

 

Only way to break that tie is a double shira trb dump into the smoke really...

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12 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Yes I know what you mean and the answer is - you dont, plain and simple, been there done that, Jervis is precisely the way ahe is because of balance reasons, if a Belfast and 2 dds park their bu**s in say far end of the cap that has some island cover trading smokes you cant do sh**, litterally, they will know if you entet it and either radar you or the dd will dart out to spot you and then whole team will focus you anf either kill you or maim you so much you become useless for the remainder of the match, you cant spot them from far couse of smoke and even your BBs cant push im because of torp walls and enemy BBs parked behind the islands...

 

Thats why it is important to be agressive early and take caps, thats why you lose every time you get a 10-liner in your team - map and cap control...

 

Only way to break that tie is a double shira trb dump into the smoke really...

Allright.
Since there was an early stalemate at A (both the Shira and Z39 were rushing into it, but neither could engage the other because of said island), I'll take from that that my play at A was the right one under the circumstances, and continue to do so the next time I find myself in such a situation.
Preferably though, I should try to enter the cap myself, and try to communicate with a long range torpedo DD (like a Skåne, Shiratsuyu etc.) to do the flanking/spotting maneuver.

Does that cover it?

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Yeah, you need someone with long fish to flush the smoke out so the BBs can pop the cruiser, I mean you can go in and drop them but its risky and likely wont end well, you can sometimes use islands as cover to approach but then again Jervis is not fast nor has an engine boost so its not really rushing material

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Thanks, appreciated!

4 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Yeah, you need someone with long fish to flush the smoke out so the BBs can pop the cruiser

Thanks, appreciated! :-)

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2 hours ago, Hirohito said:

Sorry to hijack the discussion, but do you have any input on how I should approach a Belfast or Atlanta that is parked safely behind an island, when playing as Jervis?

Last night I was facing Atlanta and Belfast, where I was going wide on A cap in order to spot any radar cruisers.
Saw the Atlanta and a Shiratsuyu parked up in the cap (it was the one where there is a big island crossing deep into the cap, where he is shielded from fire).
While my plan to spot for radar worked, I found that our team were slowly losing the C and B cap, while I was out of ideas on how I could support my A cap further.
We had a Z39 parked up in A as well (also shielded by the same island as the Atlanta was humping on the other side), so that cap by itself was still firmly contested.

I could not really approach the cap with Atlanta there zoning me out, and I could not smoke up to shoot as me spotting them was what was keeping the ships spotted (and thus in check) to begin with. Torping was of course out of the question, as my 7 km range was far too short for the 8,5km radar.

I ended up with being very passive at that flank, and left with the feeling that (apart from my spotting) I was being a burden on my team as we were slowly losing the game and I couldn't find a way to be more useful.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. :-)

 

No apology needed, mate. Without being present in the match obviously I can only offer general guidelines that would be of any use.

 

The first thing that stands out at me is that you say your team were slowly losing the B&C cap while you were at A. In ranked (and randoms for that matter) it is usually better to focus on two caps rather than trying to take all three - at least while the enemy still has most of their ships left. By trying to take 3 caps the team is split too much and so cannot offer support in the form of concentrated firepower. If you knew the Belfast was at A it might have been better to avoid the area. I understand your attempts to spot them for your team but that is only going to be effective if your team knows to prioritise those ships when spotted, something that I know from bitter experience playing many, many games as a DD is not always the case.

 

When you say "We had a Z39 parked up in A as well" do you mean that it was a friendly Z39 or was it an enemy Z39? If the latter then, from your account, A had a Belfast, Atlanta and Z39 there - this is not a place to be in a Jervis. It might have been better to help your team defend B & C. (But again I am feeling my way in the dark here as I cannot see the map situation).

 

At risk of stating the bleeding obvious I'll give you some general tips on how to deal with these types of situations:

 

1. Smoke ships are blind without their "eyes" so try to kill the DDs as quickly as possible (obvious, I know, but worth mentioning)

2. Get into the habit of reversing into caps if there is even the remotest chance that you could encounter something you cannot deal with. I know that at low and mid tiers the cap circles are quite small but, iirc, having played many, many games in the Belfast doing ultra-close-range cap support a Belfast that gets as close to the cap as he can without being spotted will not have the radar range to cover more than the cap circle itself. If you reverse into the cap then you can accelerate out of radar range VERY quickly and you have the added advantage of already presenting the slimmest possible target to incoming fire. Done right the Belfast will get no more than one salvo out against you before you disappear. Often-times the Belfast will smoke for his own safety before opening fire which could buy you a few extra moments to open the distance and now the Belfast has wasted his radar.

3. Similar to 2. try to enter caps in such a way that if you are spotted you can instantly disappear behind an island. With the mid-tier maps that we are geting in ranked atm I can think of multiple places where this is possible.

4. Conversely, and somewhat counter-intuitively, sometimes the open caps are better to go for. Radar ships love to sit near/behind islands to protect themselves (in context this is more of an Atlanta thing than a Belfast thing) and so will gravitate to the caps that have island cover and avoid the "open-water" caps like the plague. Use this to your advantage.

5. The Jervis has, iirc, lots of shortlasting smokes and radar ships love to catch dumb DDs in their smoke screens. Use that against them. Try setting a smoke screen just outside the cap before you are spotted BUT do it at full speed and just leave it behind you - chances are the Belfast will push into radar range of the smoke and waste a radar on an empty cloud. This has the added benefit of causing any nearby DDs to dump their torps into the empty cloud too. Win-win.

6.) F3 on radar ships like crazy and if the BBs don't insta-delete the sucker let them know in no uncertain terms in chat that they are all useless noobs who should stick to playing Candy Crush in future.

 

One of the above is a joke, I'll leave it up to you to decide which.

 

Sometimes the sad fact of the matter is that no matter what you do if your team aren't up to the task of taking advantage of it you are going to lose. It's a bitter pill to swallow but that's WoWS for you - sometimes we just have to take the rough with the smooth.

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18 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

*snip*

Thanks for the general tips - I do follow these though, so my issue is rather what my game plan should be in case of bunkered up radar where no DDs pop up to donate their ships. :-)
Seems like I got the general idea though, spotting is the most useful thing I can do, and making sure that there are ships in position that can take advantage of my spotting.
Last night's game didn't have this, but I just had a game today were I was aggressive with spotting a Belfast since I had two friendlies behind me who were in position to shoot him.
I'll try to watch the map and friendly positions more though, since this map was more open compared to the one yesterday.

As for yesterday's game, the Z39 was friendly and was holding the A cap behind island cover, resulting in a stalemate on both sides over the cap.
We didn't push B cap, what I meant with "losing B and C slowly" was that we did an A/C split and our team potatoed the C cap (3 to 2 advantage, yet failed to take it), while the reds did a super-risky maneuver into B and got away with it unpunished, leaving them with C and B "for free".

 

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18 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

 

Sometimes the sad fact of the matter is that no matter what you do if your team aren't up to the task of taking advantage of it you are going to lose. It's a bitter pill to swallow but that's WoWS for you - sometimes we just have to take the rough with the smooth.

Of course, that game was by all accounts such a game since our team gave up two caps for free.
I'm just trying to improve on the little things that I can influence, and in this case it was a bunkered up Atlanta and Shiratsuyu with a Belfast closely behind. :-)

If "just spotting and waiting for an opportunity" in that situation is the right thing to do, I'll happily keep doing that. :-)

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53 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

Thanks for the general tips - I do follow these though, so my issue is rather what my game plan should be in case of bunkered up radar where no DDs pop up to donate their ships. :-)
Seems like I got the general idea though, spotting is the most useful thing I can do, and making sure that there are ships in position that can take advantage of my spotting.
Last night's game didn't have this, but I just had a game today were I was aggressive with spotting a Belfast since I had two friendlies behind me who were in position to shoot him.
I'll try to watch the map and friendly positions more though, since this map was more open compared to the one yesterday.

As for yesterday's game, the Z39 was friendly and was holding the A cap behind island cover, resulting in a stalemate on both sides over the cap.
We didn't push B cap, what I meant with "losing B and C slowly" was that we did an A/C split and our team potatoed the C cap (3 to 2 advantage, yet failed to take it), while the reds did a super-risky maneuver into B and got away with it unpunished, leaving them with C and B "for free".

 

 

As a general rule (there are always exceptions) an A/C split is a terrible move but as you undoubtedly discovered sometimes your team will just do the wrong thing no matter what. It's part of why I play DDs as much as I do as it gives me a certain degree of control over what my team will do - most players won't go somewhere if there is no DD ahead of them.

 

Another bleeding obvious tip is communication with your team. I know it isn't easy with only typing availiable for communication but it is still worth getting into the habit of, especially with ranked. I managed to stop an A/C split in ranked last night by explaining in chat why it was a bad idea whilst sailling to B as our other DD went A (I asked him to do so and he agreed). I find the key is often to ask people to do something rather than tell them - the catching more flies with honey than vinegar thing.

 

Instead of "Help me at B", for example, I would say "Any of you skilled guys able to help me at B?" - people don't like to think they are crap. (Yeah, I know, I'm a manipulative SOB - so sue me.)

 

 

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They still need players who know how to radar even though I agree with the original sentiment.

I took Fiji in to a ranked battle on Tuesday, 3 DDs each team, 3 radars on the opposition, none on ours!

They were zero pointed in 7 minutes, it was a massacre.

 

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6 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

 

As a general rule (there are always exceptions) an A/C split is a terrible move but as you undoubtedly discovered sometimes your team will just do the wrong thing no matter what. It's part of why I play DDs as much as I do as it gives me a certain degree of control over what my team will do - most players won't go somewhere if there is no DD ahead of them.

 

Another bleeding obvious tip is communication with your team. I know it isn't easy with only typing availiable for communication but it is still worth getting into the habit of, especially with ranked. I managed to stop an A/C split in ranked last night by explaining in chat why it was a bad idea whilst sailling to B as our other DD went A (I asked him to do so and he agreed). I find the key is often to ask people to do something rather than tell them - the catching more flies with honey than vinegar thing.

 

Instead of "Help me at B", for example, I would say "Any of you skilled guys able to help me at B?" - people don't like to think they are crap. (Yeah, I know, I'm a manipulative SOB - so sue me.)

 

 

Yeah I use the chat a lot, even if people occasionally respond with "shut up with the spam", lol.

I am conflicted with the A/C or BC/AB split though, the forum can't seem to agree on that one.
Read the exact opposite the other day, that "BC/AB is a terrible move", so as of now I'm rather at a loss.
Best thing I can think of is that it highly depends on the map, and to some extent the ships in the enemy lineup.
With Z-39 present, I usually don't bother with B cap at all if he wants it, and Z-39 seems to want B cap a lot since he can bully people with the smoke and hydro.
I generally stay away from B on those maps where the cap is in an "island circle" surrounding it, as there are so many angles of fire into it, but you can't necessarily get out or spot other stuff so easily there.

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2 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

Yeah I use the chat a lot, even if people occasionally respond with "shut up with the spam", lol.

 

Aye, some people are idiots (actually most people are idiots - humans suck).

 

2 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

I am conflicted with the A/C or BC/AB split though, the forum can't seem to agree on that one.
Read the exact opposite the other day, that "BC/AB is a terrible move", so as of now I'm rather at a loss.
Best thing I can think of is that it highly depends on the map, and to some extent the ships in the enemy lineup.

 

Well I'm firmly in the adjacent caps camp - if one team splits to either side of the map and the other doesn't then it is too easy for a defeat in detail to occur. Also Lanchester's Law comes into play.

 

2 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

With Z-39 present, I usually don't bother with B cap at all if he wants it, and Z-39 seems to want B cap a lot since he can bully people with the smoke and hydro.
I generally stay away from B on those maps where the cap is in an "island circle" surrounding it, as there are so many angles of fire into it, but you can't necessarily get out or spot other stuff so easily there.

 

Yup, the Z39 is a tricky bugger to deal with which is why I have used it in the very few ranked games I've played this season. Unless I'm mistaken though doesn't the Jervis outspot it by about 0.4km plus the Jervis is more maneuverable. Try spotting it for your team to deal with - going one on one will be hard even without the smoke/hydro trick as he will most likely have a MASSIVE HP advantage on you. (Mine sits at something around 22K HP plus change iirc which is about 50% more than most DDs it can face).

 

If all else fails know that a lot of DD players, at least in my experience, will take a cap and then, feeling that they have "done their job" move on to the more exciting task of spamming torps at BBs. Try using that to your advantage, ie wait for them to leave the cap then grab it back once they have left. Sure a few players are smart enough to actually defend the cap they took but, from what I've seen, most aren't and just wanna cap to stop their team whining at them and then run off to get high damage numbers against BBs etc. Remember there is always more than one way to skin a cat.

 

 

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