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Riggerby

Tier 7 and 8 cruisers should get heal's when they are put in Tier 9/10 games

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I've been grinding a fair bit of cruisers lately, And something i think is pretty unfair, is how most Tier 7/8 cruisers have no heal. Especially how they are CONSTANTLY uptiered to tier 9/10 battles. Usually you are only one of 3 or 4 of your own tier in a +2 game.

 

Every single time an enemy battleship looks at you, you lose 5-15k no matter how much you angle. You can only juke and dodge so much. And unlike the tier 9/10 cruisers who all have heals to somewhat sustain this. Every single hit you take is permanent.  BB 18km away slam you through your perfectly angled bow near the start of the game? Congratulations, You're playing the next 18 minutes with less than half health. And its not even as though its easy to avoid this damage in the first place, Your concealment is absolutely monstrous and only 3 ships at tier 7 have radar to deal with the DD permaspotting.  And its not even just battleship overmatching. The HE spam.. Every single fire, every single flood you take is permanent damage. You have to have serious serious thoughts about damage conning that 1 fire because its health you will never get back, and if you use it and then moments later you're set on fire, or worse double / tripple fired. GG. Fighting high tier HE spammers, which, if we're being honest, is the entire meta atm is just insanely imbalanced. God forbid a Tier 8/10 CV go for you with rockets or bombers. Not only is he doing 10-20k alpha through your paper armour but then following it up with tons of fire damage too.

 

How about add some sort of Dynamic consumable for ALL tier 7 / 8 cruisers that only activates when they are put into +2 Matchmaking. (To stop them being too powerful when top tier, only make it apply when they are bottom tier). it doesn't even need to be a strong heal, even something like Atago's +200HP for 28s heal would make a world of difference. It would actually give you the ability to let a fire burn and not having to feel like uninstalling when you DCP only to eat a double fire instantly after.


Edit - Just incase i have confused you in my wording, i do not mean a constantly active heal like in arms race or anything, I literally just mean be given a repair party heal consumable they can activate a couple times per battle.

 

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1 minute ago, Hanse77SWE said:

No.

 

Great counter point, very elaborate. thank you.

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Let me repeat what Hanse said: No.

 

Being low tier can hit any class, not just cruisers, and they all deal with the same problems. Low tiers have the same problems on all tiers and not just on tier 7 and 8. Not one of the problems can't be overcome by adjusting your playstyle a little.

Yes, sometimes RNG will give you the bitter medicine and send you to the bottom of the ocean, no matter how well you played. But that can also happen to every tier, including 9 and 10.

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3 minutes ago, Riggerby said:

 

Great counter point, very elaborate. thank you.

You're welcome.

 

I've grinded through 18 T7-8 cruisers and they are fine as they are. Those ships are built on not having a heal. If we give them a heal then they have an advantage over the T9-10s that are built around having a heal. Please don't mess up the balance more than it already is.

 

If you get focused down in you bottom tier cruiser that either means:

 

A) You're in the wrong place.

B) You're higher tier teammates are so good at hiding so you are the only target, or

C) You are the last one alive.

 

If you are bottom tier then it's your job to support the higher tier ships, not to take point. Your place in behind the "big boys" no matter how far back they are.

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The suggestion is not new and not bad.

We do not need to limit it to cruisers.

On the other hand, it is unlikely that WG will introduce dynamic benefits, based on Tier and MM.

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8 minutes ago, Egoleter said:

Let me repeat what Hanse said: No.

 

Being low tier can hit any class, not just cruisers, and they all deal with the same problems. Low tiers have the same problems on all tiers and not just on tier 7 and 8. Not one of the problems can't be overcome by adjusting your playstyle a little.

Yes, sometimes RNG will give you the bitter medicine and send you to the bottom of the ocean, no matter how well you played. But that can also happen to every tier, including 9 and 10.

I agree all classes struggle in an upteir, But tier 7 cruisers are infamously squishy at their own tier already. Throwing them into the high calibre , HE spamming high tier meta with no heal is just brutal.

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My face when I first got my T9 Saint Louis with heal :

giphy.gif

 

My face when I got citadelled while angled with my new ship

11360340.jpg

 

Heal is overrated. Not saying that some dynamic adjustments cannot be made, but heal ? Meh.

 

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It's a thing that does bug me and it's more to do with the Sh!ty MM Loading into a game with a T8 cruiser and seeing lX. lX. lX, X,X,X recurring is daunting as they are all pretty much better armed as well, but T7 is getting as bad  and it comes down to where you draw the line, To be honest I've really lost my mojo with this game and I've stopped  ship grinding (got to T, 10 but wasn't keen on the BBQ) now all my cruisers have heal from Tier 6 onwards no heal :etc_swear: it WG won't alter MM Basicaly British Light and Heavies, Atago, Bagration, Eugen I did get Cheshire but that bag of crap needs the hand of God not a heal, See LWM review.

Off course Heal does little to help  Getting one shotted 

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Honestly, considering the battleship caliber and gun velocity creep a cruiser survivability buff is long since overdue. The removal of premium consumables now makes it so that implementation of a heal on lower tiered cruisers is easier than ever as it allows Weegee to limit a lower tiered cruiser's heal count to two charges. That said, survivability is peanuts compared to the fact that lower tiered cruisers have to deal with the nonsense that battleships brings. The allegation that the likes of Sinop or Lyon are anywhere close to 'on' the same tier as the likes of Yorks and New Orleans is patently absurd. A heal would be nice to see on lower tiered cruisers, but there are other more drastic changes that should be prioritized.

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1 minute ago, dasCKD said:

The allegation that the likes of Sinop or Lyon are anywhere close to 'on' the same tier as the likes of Yorks and New Orleans is patently absurd.

Sinop vs Shchors. One has hp, a decently armoured bow, good enough guns for high tier, the other has like what? Garbage for armour that gets citpenned by RN BB HE, a 900 m turning circle radius, ok dpm, if it weren't for the fact that uptiered it can only pen BB superstructure and has poor fire chance thanks to IFHE rework?

 

Yorck and New Orleans at least got decent enough plating and aren't reliant on a nerfed 4 point skill to deal with higher tier BBs.

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3 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

Yorck and New Orleans at least got decent enough plating and aren't reliant on a nerfed 4 point skill to deal with higher tier BBs.

That came as a shock on Vanguard, my first thought was WTF

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3 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

Garbage for armour that gets citpenned by RN BB HE

I just had this today, wasn't expecting it, but a lion managed to citadel me with HE (only one shell) at angle i think through the aft of the ship (or deck can't remember).

Never had that happen, but chores does rely on, positioning, dispersion, bad aim and other tricks just to keep herself alive when spotted by the fat ships at the back.

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1 minute ago, CptBarney said:

I just had this today, wasn't expecting it, but a lion managed to citadel me with HE (only one shell) at angle i think through the aft of the ship (or deck can't remember).

Never had that happen, but chores does rely on, positioning, dispersion, bad aim and other tricks just to keep herself alive when spotted by the fat ships at the back.

Pre-rework, Shchors was a set of superb CL guns on a poor hull. Now it's just... why? Myoko brings like 3/4 of the HE dpm with shells that pen 32 mm, don't sacrifice fire chance and let's not even talk about the difference in tanking capability. Also comes with more useful AP and long range torps.

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Just now, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

Pre-rework, Shchors was a set of superb CL guns on a poor hull. Now it's just... why? Myoko brings like 3/4 of the HE dpm with shells that pen 32 mm, don't sacrifice fire chance and let's not even talk about the difference in tanking capability. Also comes with more useful AP and long range torps.

Never really went up the russian cl line until 4 weeks ago, so everything is new to me. I basically use tricks i learnt from the french and british cruiser lines plus perth to make her decent, she seems good to me but i haven't gotten past aoba for the japanese yet, i heard they are squishy, but seem to attract over-pens alot in my BB's unless they angle (to a certain degree).

 

I do get fires with chores, but i have no clue in comparison to other light cruisers. Oh well at least i got chapyev now.

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Maybe just every ship should get a heal?

I mean, you can even have different types of heal, as you correctly said, a fire on a <T9 cruiser is permanent damage. So we could have heals that work only on fire/flood damage. Or you could give flatout heal amount regardless of what kinda damage you receive, f.e. T5 Cruiser gets a heal which heals 2k HP.

There are tons of options which wouldnt break balance if done properly. But if you give T7-8 Cruisers a heal, next thing is T5-6 Cruisers are getting shafted meeting those and so forth... Btw heals for T4 ships would be bad at all, seeing all those CVs which can just shred no-AA ships :cap_yes:

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14 minutes ago, motor_g_b said:

That came as a shock on Vanguard, my first thought was WTF

 

'WTF' sums up that mess of a ship quite nicely.

 

 

But back to the point of the topic, if you give all cruisers heals what will you do to rebalance the ships that already had them? They have just had an advantage removed.

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Nope, why change a ships capabilities just because it is bottom tier??? 
 

I sigh as a T6 DD going into  a T8 game, but for crying out loud stop moaning !.

 

It teaches you how to adapt and learn how to use your ships strengths and learn other ships weaknesses.

 

If you want something changing, lets have MM + or - 1 not + or- 2, now that I would  go for.
 

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10 hours ago, Cyclops_ said:

Nope, why change a ships capabilities just because it is bottom tier??? 
 

I sigh as a T6 DD going into  a T8 game, but for crying out loud stop moaning !.

 

It teaches you how to adapt and learn how to use your ships strengths and learn other ships weaknesses.

 

If you want something changing, lets have MM + or - 1 not + or- 2, now that I would  go for.
 

Or at least sort the MM out so u have an equal amount of bottom and top tier games played 8 tonight been bottom tier in all but one.

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11 hours ago, CptBarney said:

I do get fires with chores, but i have no clue in comparison to other light cruisers. Oh well at least i got chapyev now.

Prepare yourself for a let down.

11 hours ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

Pre-rework, Shchors was a set of superb CL guns on a poor hull. Now it's just... why? Myoko brings like 3/4 of the HE dpm with shells that pen 32 mm, don't sacrifice fire chance and let's not even talk about the difference in tanking capability. Also comes with more useful AP and long range torps.

I'm not giving up on Shchors just yet.

 

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There are a few lines where a heal on the T8 might be enough to make it better than the tier 9 ships.

 

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19 hours ago, Hanse77SWE said:

I've grinded through 18 T7-8 cruisers and they are fine as they are. Those ships are built on not having a heal. If we give them a heal then they have an advantage over the T9-10s that are built around having a heal. Please don't mess up the balance more than it already is.

Really? Having both a Helena and a Nuevo De Julio, I know it's pretty easy to balance a ship with a heal and a ship without. Dynamic heals could also mean appropriate dynamic nerfs to range and reload (and that's all that's different about those two).

 

19 hours ago, Hanse77SWE said:

If you get focused down in you bottom tier cruiser that either means:

 

A) You're in the wrong place.

B) You're higher tier teammates are so good at hiding so you are the only target, or

C) You are the last one alive.

Translation: Go and hide behind an island. 

 

Unfortunately - and I've been finding this a lot playing Albemarle recently - there are lot of maps which don't have much mid range island cover. So you either have to be right at the cap (and you've probably brought the wrong ship, if that's what you want to do) , right at the back (where there's nothing much to do) or right in the middle, where every chancer BB in the game will throw enormous big gun shells at you, because the consequences of Overmatch or British Tier X HE (fires, module damage) mean even a lucky shot can be 50% of your HP. It's really frustrating, even in a ship which is built to come back from that, with one of the best cruiser heals there is. 

 

This used to be an L2P issue - I remember not knowing H2P and merrily getting dev struck in Aobas from across the map because of sailing in straight lines - but now it's just RNG. And the result is our old pal Boring Camping Gameplay, because no-one wants to be seen.

 

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19 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

And the result is our old pal Boring Camping Gameplay, because no-one wants to be seen.

Problem is that the high tier big boys play like they sit in a tincan when they are the ones that should take point, lead the way and make room for the lower tiers behind them. If the enemy have time to shoot at low tier at the back, then it means that your team isn't putting enough pressure on the reds.

 

And yes, really. The smallest change can make a huge difference in the end. Those drawbacks to the Boise (reload, range and speed) is enough to balance out the heal. Ask WG what would happen if a Helena had 13k more health.

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