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Saltface

Insert click bait title here - Not a CV rant

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A friend of mine opened the following thread in the US server. (linked with his permission)

 

He presented a game in his Enterprise and asked "how could he be countered?"

Straight forward.

I was hoping for a popcorn soapbup but I got a rather interesting discussion instead with a tad of popcorn LOL

 

I would like to know what you think about what they think. Does that make sense?

This is not a CV rant. Please don't turn it into one.

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/218699-how-would-you-counter-play-me/

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TLDR: 

You cannot be countered unless a team of twelve strangers miraculously works together to mitigate the damage of just one single enemy and even if they would they couldn't do anything about the spotting. 

 

Spoiler alert..... They won't. 

 

Inb4 cv apologists

"but you're a unicum" 

"but you're top-tier". 

"but you're in an op premium" 

"but most cvs aren't that good anyway" 

"but the enemies played it bad/wrong"

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2 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

"but most cvs aren't that good anyway" 

 

Thats literally the only reason wows is still playable. Imagine hordes of *insert known forum SU CV players* running around in EVERY game!

ofc they dont get thats basicly admitting CVs are broken/OP, but who cares ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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1 minute ago, GarrusBrutus said:

TLDR

I was fascinated by the intellectual honesty of some and the opposite by a few others.

All what you said above was clearly debunked. Yet miraculous as it seems nothing mattered.

Argument, then here you go, here is the answer. No, new argument. New counter argument and Nooooooo move the goal posts now. New game. New argument.

 

And when finally a video showing/debunking everything popped up the most dishonest answer of all popped up. "What do you want? You survived"

 

What also surprised me is that the guys on one argument (losing side) don't know the trick of trolling a post so it derails and gets locked.

 

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Imo its even fair game to use a T8 CV for this example. Could be worse. Imagine Hosho in heavy T3 and ask the same question again.

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Is it @Bear__Necessities ?

Anyway, there's no counter vs good or very good CV player.

At best one can try to mitigate and delay damage.We all know it. WG knows it. That's how broken class has to be to make CVs popular enough to reach corpotargets.

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There is n counter because the interaction mechanic is removed from the rest of the battle and we are about to get another class completely removed from it in few days...

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CV or not, a super unicum in an OP ship will decimate the enemy team.

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A Skilled Enterprise Player in T7-T8 Matchmaking has no real counterplay, there is stuff that can hurt a little like fighters, that is about it...

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9 hours ago, Saltface said:

A friend of mine opened the following thread in the US server. (linked with his permission)

 

He presented a game in his Enterprise and asked "how could he be countered?"

Straight forward.

I was hoping for a popcorn soapbup but I got a rather interesting discussion instead with a tad of popcorn LOL

 

I would like to know what you think about what they think. Does that make sense?

This is not a CV rant. Please don't turn it into one.

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/218699-how-would-you-counter-play-me/

Salute dear Saltface :)

 

Video - First 7 Minutes:

The first 7 minutes, 1/3 of the match the CV has analytical peformed little in the video.

 

General, initial match starting phases:

In the first 5 minutes of matches CV players could, in theory, have a coffee in the kitchen.

During the initial match opening phase the enemy ships disperse, in this beginning match period a CV players planes losses are usually the highest - As the concentration of ships tends to be the highest in the first 1/4 of a match. If there is no major CV plane losses in the initial match phase it means there is poor anti-CV red team setup and/or the reds have not been major attacked by a CV player.

CV Scouting for the green team sometimes is enough during the initial match phase, however CV players will go for attacking opportunities - Especially against lonely riders.

 

Rest of the video ( from first 7 minutes), defence best practice against CVs:

The usual defence against CVs  is smoke, good AA ships, riding together with AA ships, active capping, not saling to map corners, every player making 1 kill or a few players making 2-4 kills each - Regardless of the ship class they play. If a team does not mass kill or hold all caps, then a match is hopeless lost. If the enemy team has "Casual Unicorns" doing the forementioned, then battles can be interesting and thrilling. Single ships riding stray along are nice bombing targets, a lot of players dont use and dont press the keys for AA activation, AA Side Priority or AA Burst or/and have no AA escort with them.

 

AA use example: http://tiny.cc/okdopz

 

Usually there will be some poster getting personal in the forum, so I will not further reply.

Wishing you and everyone else a nice time in WoWs and in the forum.

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I disagree about not doing much in the first 5 minutes. Ok, the cv player didn't do a lot of damage, but the spotting and harassing of the enemy dd's especially on A cap is what force the dd away and as a result any other enemy forces that were moving that way. It allowed the friendly dd to cap it and herded the weaker enemy side of the enemy over to the right of the map.

 

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11 hours ago, Saltface said:

A friend of mine opened the following thread in the US server. (linked with his permission)

 

He presented a game in his Enterprise and asked "how could he be countered?"

Straight forward.

I was hoping for a popcorn soapbup but I got a rather interesting discussion instead with a tad of popcorn LOL

 

I would like to know what you think about what they think. Does that make sense?

This is not a CV rant. Please don't turn it into one.

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/218699-how-would-you-counter-play-me/

This is not his average game, it is Enterprise in a Tier 6 game that laster 20 minutes, and he ended up farming 185k of damage. Nothing unusual there. Big E is OP in Tier 6 matchmaking, without any doubt.

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Yes he made sense. And that was a good example of how broken CV's can be. Not just in terms of game balance, but in terms of the game experience for his targets. Whilst the game balance would be better if the tier 8 CV was in a tier 10 match, the gameplay experience would be still be a watered down version of "I feel helpless".

 

And on top of that, the game-play experience isn't all that good for the CV player. It's a Groundhog Day run up and attack, run up and attack all the time. It get's repetitive very quickly.

 

 

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10 hours ago, GarrusBrutus said:

TLDR: 

You cannot be countered unless a team of twelve strangers miraculously works together to mitigate the damage of just one single enemy and even if they would they couldn't do anything about the spotting. 

 

"no true scotsman fallacy"

"poisoning the well fallacy"

hyperbole

ftfy

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12 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

This is not his average game, it is Enterprise in a Tier 6 game that laster 20 minutes, and he ended up farming 185k of damage.

Your observation is correct. 

 

However, the point the OP of the US forum that posted the battle was to bait the readers to present a counterplay for CV. In one of the following posts the OP showed a series of vid replays from almost all CVs. Down tier, up tier, same tier. Same question. What is the counterplay?

 

He got no answer. Just "you are too good so we don't care"

Then he showed a vid of a Super Unicum DD trying to survive the attacks of a mediocre (if not bad) CV player. It was nightmarish.

 

He clearly showed that a CV does what it wants and the only thing a Super Unicum surface ship player can do is just hope CV picks another target.

What answer he got? "You survived didn't you?"

 

This is what buggers me.

Players want equality of outcome not equality of opportunity.

People consider that a player that is clearly bellow average should be able to stop in his tracks any Super Unicum in a surface ship. You see, the problem with this way of thinking is that it renders skill useless. No matter how good you are any one in a CV, no matter how bad he is, can just ruin your game casually. It doesn't matter if you put in more work to learn to play or to think how to do things so you have better results.

 

They just want to have the same results without the effort because reasons

 

 

 

 

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Well, when WG set things up the way you can't "deny", you can "delay". After all, if you can "deny" class reduced almost exclusively to damage farming, then whats the point of such damage farmer?

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6 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Well, when WG set things up the way you can't "deny", you can "delay". After all, if you can "deny" class reduced almost exclusively to damage farming, then whats the point of such damage farmer?

 

Spotting removal for other ships would suffice :cap_tea:

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Just now, DFens_666 said:

 

Spotting removal for other ships would suffice :cap_tea:

In return CVs get actually unlimited planes I assume?:cap_tea:

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I have my suspicion that these discussions turn into flame wars because the definition of "countering" is so different from person to person, causing people to yell at each other because they are discussing fundamentally different things depending on definition.

The way I personally define "countering a CV" is "what can I do to influence the CVs play to make sure his team loses?".
The answer to that depends of course what ship I am playing, but taking the example of a DD, I'd make sure that the enemy CV doesn't spot me and has to go for less valuable targets, or that he spends a lot of time trying to spot me - and when he does, make sure that he spends as much time as possible trying to kill me.
The reason for this is that while I personally might go down, I don't mind wasting a lot of his time trying to down me, as this buys time for our team and if our CV kills their DD(s) before their CV kills me, our team has an advantage that usually can translate into a win.

Other people might define "countering" as "what I can do to kill the enemy CV or deplane him", which of course is a very different question and gives very different answers depending on ship class and the CVs competency. It's nothing wrong in having that definition of "countering", but it's fundamentally a different definition that leads to vastly different answers depending on context.

 

Just my five cents on the issue and why this usually turns into flame wars.

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Il y a 4 heures, Ocsimano18 a dit :

CV or not, a super unicum in an OP ship will decimate the enemy team.

And conversely, CV or not a super unicum regulary cannot decimate the enemy team and carry his side. I have the feeling when the unicum is backed up by somewhat correct players, then he can wreck havoc. Whatever the ship.

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3 minutes ago, Panocek said:

In return CVs get actually unlimited planes I assume?:cap_tea:

 

Why would they need buffs?

Removing the spotting would give needed balance back towards surface ships. You could atleast try to dodge the CV without risking blapping from enemy BBs. And bad players cant magicially make Unicums (semi)-useless just by picking a certain class of ships.

But WG thinks we are all donkeys who cant understand minimap so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

But WG thinks we are all donkeys who cant understand minimap so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

They aren't wrong at that though.

 

And then if CV is "safe" in the back and its considered "bad", why smoke/island camping is considered "good", outcome is the same - you're fired upon without effective means of retaliating.

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Just now, Panocek said:

They aren't wrong at that though.

Well they might even give too much credit to those people: Like they would actually look at the minimap :cap_haloween: And most of those who do, would understand it. Sure itll take some time to adapt, but it should work. You could use a different color for airspotting on minimap so you know the difference.

 

Just now, Panocek said:

 

And then if CV is "safe" in the back and its considered "bad", why smoke/island camping is considered "good", outcome is the same - you're fired upon without effective means of retaliating.

 

You can retaliate smoked up ships tho, smoke doesnt make them immune to shells/torps.

If you want to make the CV more vulnerable, you could use a max attackrange so he cant just reverse to mapborder. But ofc you cant just slap several changes on each other, you could try different ones tho. And playing a Wooster open water would require indefinetely more skill than a CV sitting on A1 who just casually plays along and still can deal decent damage.

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6 minutes ago, Panocek said:

They aren't wrong at that though.

 

And then if CV is "safe" in the back and its considered "bad", why smoke/island camping is considered "good", outcome is the same - you're fired upon without effective means of retaliating.

Well one, is basically guided ordance that doesnt need other teammates to spot for them and two the others can be countered by consumables that already exits (hydro/radar).

Obviously your not always in a situation where you can do that but the majority of players arent great aimers and the damage done by them can be dodged entirely by slowing down speeding up etc.

 

Although too be honest, after 1-2 salvoes you should get spotted in smoke since, it would be obvious there is a ship in there, but again this game is increadibly arcadey.

In UA:D ships are still spotted in smoke from firing, its just they are obscured so hitting them is a lot harder (which makes sense).

 

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3 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

If you want to make the CV more vulnerable, you could use a max attackrange so he cant just reverse to mapborder. But ofc you cant just slap several changes on each other, you could try different ones tho. And playing a Wooster open water would require indefinetely more skill than a CV sitting on A1 who just casually plays along and still can deal decent damage.

Only if BBs get range capped at 18km tops. Because your "average A1 wanker" will simply switch from CV to BB with longest available range. And probably also will start getting more damage simply virtue of not being deplaned by 8min mark, having faster rate of fire and then having unlimited amount of shells to play with. And with BB accuracy, you don't need skill, you need RNGesus to get *some* results.

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