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Sunleader

Would you think this can work for CVs ?

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I keep wondering if there is a way to Implement CVs into the Game without them being Insanely Overpowered or them effectively just being a Guided Artillery.

And alot of Ideas are there. But thanks to just how different CVs are from other Warships it is pretty Difficult for any of these Ideas to really be Good.

But one Idea has actually lately Grown on me quite a bit.

 

So now I would like to hear some Opinions on it on wether it might work and be better than the current version of CVs and maybe Adjust it to make an Actual Suggestion for it in the Suggestions Topic.

 

 

The Idea is to Reverse the Roles of Fighters and Bombers in the current System using older RTS Elements as well as the New Submarine Elements and CV Rework Elements to Create a Sort of 2nd CV Rework.

Effectively. The CV Player instead of getting Bomber Squadrons which then have Fighter Consumables. Will get Fighter Squadrons that have Bomber Consumables.

 

 

1.

Air to Air Combat.

Fighter Squadrons would come with Machineguns, Machinecannons and Rockets to Fight Enemy Aircraft.

These would each work Differently a bit.

Machineguns would be the Base Weapon with most Ammo Reserves before Requriing to Reload. And the Job of the Player would be to keep the Squadrons Machineguns Pointing on the Enemy Squadron while Firing. Leading the Enemy Movements and trying to Stay on target at a very Close Range.

Machinecannons would be the Stronger Variant of that. But have extremely Limited Ammunition before needing to Reload. The Job of the Player would be the Same as with Machineguns. But Cannons would have a Slightly Better Range.

And Finally Rockets. Unlike Machineguns and Machinecannons. The Rockets would be more Similar to DDs Fighting Enemy DDs with Torps. They would Fly through the Air and thus would need to be Fired with according Lead and Prediction unless its Point Blank Range where just like with DDs it might end with mutual destruction.

 

To make Air Combat more Interesting the Fighter Squadron would not only get the Speed Boost/Breaks and Left Right Maneuvers. But would also receive the ability to use F and V to increase or lower Altitude.

Higher Altitude of course Reducing Damage taken from AA as only Heavy AA can reach there. But of course also not being able to Fight Enemy Aircraft that are at lower Altitude. Meaning that above their own Ships The CV Player might prefer to Fight at lower Altitude while above Enemy Ships the CV Player will be more happy to Fight at higher Altitudes.

 

Pls note.

Reload on the Weapons will Require the CV Player to use the R Key (for other Ships Damage Control but for CV it will then be Return Squadron) and return to the Carrier. He himself will Return instantly of course and can Immediately Jump back into Action with his remaining Fighters Forming a New Squadron.

Also. The Different Weapons can only be used 1 at a Time. Using the 1-2-3 Keys. Meaning 1 is Machineguns, 2 is Cannons and 3 is Rockets. Which the Player has to Choose which to Fire. (Similar to how Normal Ships have to Choose their Weapons as well)

 

2.

Bomber Consumables.

The Bomber Consumables are Fairly Straight Forward. The Player would get 2 Squadron Consumables. Which would be Dive/Level Bombers and Torpedo Bombers. The Number of uses as well as the actual Squadrons Spawned by it being Decided by the CV in Question.

The Consumable is used by Flying over a Target and Pressing the Button for using it. After that the Bomber Squadron will take off from the Carrier and Fly to the Point where the Consumable was Used. To then Attack whatever Enemy Ship it Finds inside the Area. If there is no Visible Target the Squadron will Circle there for 2 Minutes before it Returns to the Carrier.

The 2 Bomber Consumables can be used Together. Meaning that if the CV Player wants he can Send both a Torpedo Bomber and a Dive Bomber Squadron to the Designated Area to Attack whatever Ship they find there.

 

As the Consumable is depleted regardless of Success or Losses the Player does not need to worry about AA aside from AA being so Strong that the Bombers wont Reach there.

Of course current Heavy AA would need to be Nerfed for this. As the AI Bombers wont make any Evasive Maneuvers like a Player does to avoid Heavy AA.

Unlike the Player Squadrons currently. These Consumable Squadrons however would Drop the entire Load at once. And not in Single Wings per Drop. So a Hakuryu assuming its not changed for this. Would drop 12 Torpedoes at once which is Pretty Hefty.

But since its an AI Drop it would be mostly Evadable and AA is certain to Shoot down some Aircraft as well. So the Player actually likely only be hit by 1 or 2 Torpedoes or might even evade it alltogether if he sees it coming early enough and turns his nose into the Torpedoes.

 

As Bombers will only Attack Targets in a 4km Radius (So 8km Diamter +2km due to Diameter of Squadron Patrolling in Circles in the Center of the Area) of the Consumable being used. And DDs often only have 2.6km Air Spotting Range. The Player might be Required to Spot a DD for the Bombers to Attack it. As the Bombers wont Attack the DD unless they see it.

At the same time however. The CV Player might use HE Dive Bombers to Spawn them ontop of a Capture Circle. And thus Block that Capture Circle because if the DD tries to take it he will move into the Diver Bombers which will then not only Spot him but also Attack him.

 

3.

Air to Ground Combat.

The Fighters if they Drop to the Lowest Altitude will be able to Attack Enemy Ships with Machineguns, Cannons and Rockets. However. Fighters cannot Deal Direct Damage to Ships. Instead they will be doing Module Damage and Potentially Set Fires using Rockets.

Of course being at lowest Altitude also means that they will take heavy AA Damage as they are completely Exposed to AA. So this wont be useful if the Enemy has alot of Powerful AA in the Area.

 

By the Way. Submrines are currently Considered Modules by the Game. So while other Ships will only Take Module Damage from HE Splash Damage while their HP wont be Touched unless it Hits and Penetrate the Ship Directly.

Submarines will take Damage from HE Splash Radius.

The Same Mechanic in the Game also means that these Fighters can cause Direct Damage to a Submarine. Meaning that using Rockets. The Fighter Squadrons might be able to Cause Direct Damage to a Submarine when they Catch it on the Surface.

 

This Includes Cannons.

Machineguns wont have any Damage Potential against Ships as they can even Penetrate Superstructure for most part.

 

Cannons will be able to cause Fires in Superstructure for Larger Ships and on some DDs. Due to having Explosive Rounds they will also Cause Micro Damage to Modules.

However. Since any Damage caused to Modules can Disable it. This means that even tough the Actual Damage to the Module is completely Neglectable for anything beyond lighter AA Modules. The High Amount of Hits you might Potentially Face when a CV Player Peppers your Modules can lead to them being Disabled very Reliably.

 

Rockets can cause Fires to the entire Ship using Explosive Damage and will of course also Splash Modules like Rudder and Engine if they are hit by it.

 

4.

Rewards.

As the Primary Objective of the CV is Spotting and Causing Damage to Enemy Planes.

Its main Damage Counter will not Show Ship Damage but instead Air Damage.

Meaning the main Damage Counted for CVs will be Damage Caused to Enemy Planes.

With Damage to Enemy Ships being Counted as the Secondary Damage (where other Ships currently get Air Damage Counting)

 

 

 

What do you think.

You think this might work ?

You think it might be Fun for the CV Player while also being much better Balanced for the other Players ?

Or you think nah. I would rather have the current CVs which will pretty much always be Overpowered as otherwise nobody will play them ? ^^

 

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[LMER]
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Should have always been like the cv system in the old Navy Field, where cv player could if he wanted only launch fighter squadrons to prevent enemy carriers from bombing his friendly ships and never bomb a single enemy ship for entire game.

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14 minutes ago, Toni112007 said:

Should have always been like the cv system in the old Navy Field, where cv player could if wanted launch only fighter squadrons entire game to prevent enemy carriers from bombing his friendly ships and never bomb a single enemy ship the entire game.

That doesn't sound like fun^^

I wouldn't mind some fighter gameplay, though it shouldn't be like the old RTS, where the better player just erase the other completly.

But then, I don't see, how you want make it work with the current game design. If the Fighter won't kill a full squad, why would you go with Fighters instead of bombing others?

Guess that would cause new issues ^^

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Yes, more like real world where you need air superiority to send in the strike aircraft.

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5 minutes ago, Molly_Delaney said:

Yes, more like real world where you need air superiority to send in the strike aircraft.

Sounds like 1vs1 with huge skill gap. One CV wins, the other will be useless? ^^

Guess we will get comments like "Our CV is garbage, he loses the dog fights"

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36 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

2.

Bomber Consumables.

The Bomber Consumables are Fairly Straight Forward. The Player would get 2 Squadron Consumables. Which would be Dive/Level Bombers and Torpedo Bombers. The Number of uses as well as the actual Squadrons Spawned by it being Decided by the CV in Question.

The Consumable is used by Flying over a Target and Pressing the Button for using it. After that the Bomber Squadron will take off from the Carrier and Fly to the Point where the Consumable was Used. To then Attack whatever Enemy Ship it Finds inside the Area. If there is no Visible Target the Squadron will Circle there for 2 Minutes before it Returns to the Carrier.

The 2 Bomber Consumables can be used Together. Meaning that if the CV Player wants he can Send both a Torpedo Bomber and a Dive Bomber Squadron to the Designated Area to Attack whatever Ship they find there.

 

As the Consumable is depleted regardless of Success or Losses the Player does not need to worry about AA aside from AA being so Strong that the Bombers wont Reach there.

Of course current Heavy AA would need to be Nerfed for this. As the AI Bombers wont make any Evasive Maneuvers like a Player does to avoid Heavy AA.

Unlike the Player Squadrons currently. These Consumable Squadrons however would Drop the entire Load at once. And not in Single Wings per Drop. So a Hakuryu assuming its not changed for this. Would drop 12 Torpedoes at once which is Pretty Hefty.

But since its an AI Drop it would be mostly Evadable and AA is certain to Shoot down some Aircraft as well. So the Player actually likely only be hit by 1 or 2 Torpedoes or might even evade it alltogether if he sees it coming early enough and turns his nose into the Torpedoes.

 

As Bombers will only Attack Targets in a 4km Radius (So 8km Diamter +2km due to Diameter of Squadron Patrolling in Circles in the Center of the Area) of the Consumable being used. And DDs often only have 2.6km Air Spotting Range. The Player might be Required to Spot a DD for the Bombers to Attack it. As the Bombers wont Attack the DD unless they see it.

At the same time however. The CV Player might use HE Dive Bombers to Spawn them ontop of a Capture Circle. And thus Block that Capture Circle because if the DD tries to take it he will move into the Diver Bombers which will then not only Spot him but also Attack him.

The bombers are compeltly automated? Personally I wouldn't like that, because Dive bombers are my favorite plane type. Though that doesn't matter much. I see more and issue, if you automate more. I'm more pro to make more stuff manually like AA; Secondaries etc.

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20 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I wouldn't mind some fighter gameplay, though it shouldn't be like the old RTS, where the better player just erase the other completly.

But then, I don't see, how you want make it work with the current game design. If the Fighter won't kill a full squad, why would you go with Fighters instead of bombing others?

Guess that would cause new issues ^^

A start would be to make it so that fighters autoproc if bombers EVER wander into their bubble, instead of the current stupid 3 second or whatever period that makes fighters utterly useless. Also hardcode it so that fighters pursue enemy bombers instead of pointlessly locking the enemy fighters.

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24 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Sounds like 1vs1 with huge skill gap. One CV wins, the other will be useless? ^^

Guess we will get comments like "Our CV is garbage, he loses the dog fights"

Possibly, but the Warships would still have their AA and would be alerted to an incoming strike.

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51 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Sounds like 1vs1 with huge skill gap. One CV wins, the other will be useless? ^^

Guess we will get comments like "Our CV is garbage, he loses the dog fights"

 

You mean pretty much the same as Right now ? ^^

Just that right now its "Our CV is garbage, he doesnt kill the DDs faster than Enemy CV"

 

40 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The bombers are compeltly automated? Personally I wouldn't like that, because Dive bombers are my favorite plane type. Though that doesn't matter much. I see more and issue, if you automate more. I'm more pro to make more stuff manually like AA; Secondaries etc.

 

Yes. Entirely Automatic.

And well Sorry about that. But see it like that. Right now assumably 60-80% of the entire Community hate the CVs entirely.

 

Thing with more Manual stuff is that WG will never do it.

Lots of People are not capable of Multi Tasking and WG caters 99% to the Average of Average Players. Meaning they will never Introduce anything that involves alot of multitasking.

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56 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The bombers are compeltly automated? Personally I wouldn't like that, because Dive bombers are my favorite plane type. Though that doesn't matter much. I see more and issue, if you automate more. I'm more pro to make more stuff manually like AA; Secondaries etc.

Considering average player have hard time using WSAD keys, breathing and blinking at the same time, automated damage against surface ships, while CVs play dogfight (or rather, whack-a-mole) with fighters might be not as bad.

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10 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

You mean pretty much the same as Right now ? ^^

Just that right now its "Our CV is garbage, he doesnt kill the DDs faster than Enemy CV"

 

 

Yes. Entirely Automatic.

And well Sorry about that. But see it like that. Right now assumably 60-80% of the entire Community hate the CVs entirely.

 

Thing with more Manual stuff is that WG will never do it.

Lots of People are not capable of Multi Tasking and WG caters 99% to the Average of Average Players. Meaning they will never Introduce anything that involves alot of multitasking.

So this will be like one of those games where you produce units and they kill each other without your input?

yes pls i loike lazy gameplay and watching planes with 50mm autocannons go broomy zoom.

 

Although would make sense for the game itself, in-general.

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4 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Considering average player have hard time using WSAD keys, breathing and blinking at the same time, automated damage against surface ships, while CVs play dogfight (or rather, whack-a-mole) with fighters might be not as bad.

It will be a 1vs1 with skill gap. Though it could work, if you allow more CVs each side, like 4vs4 cvs. Then it would close the skill gap more. But still, having the bombers automated would be weird, people are already complaining about, that this is world of warplane, and now the interaction with the ships would become automated and only dog fights against planes ^^

 

21 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Right now assumably 60-80% of the entire Community hate the CVs entirely.

I would assume only like 10% would really hate CV. I would assume 30% dislikes. A lot are okay with that and some really like it. It's just, that people often only notice the complains, but nobody notices those people, who are fine with them and don't care about the CV discussion ;)

 

23 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Thing with more Manual stuff is that WG will never do it.

Lots of People are not capable of Multi Tasking and WG caters 99% to the Average of Average Players. Meaning they will never Introduce anything that involves alot of multitasking.

I played Steel Ocean, AAA was manual, Secondaries were manual. Steel Ocean is over all worse, worse graphic and weird damage models, but in those cases, it was better and more fun. You could fire with the secondaries of a CV on SS and DDs. A Submarine could fire the guns against a low hp dd. That was so much fun...

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1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It will be a 1vs1 with skill gap. Though it could work, if you allow more CVs each side, like 4vs4 cvs. Then it would close the skill gap more. But still, having the bombers automated would be weird, people are already complaining about, that this is world of warplane, and now the interaction with the ships would become automated and only dog fights against planes ^^

Given unique nature of carriers, RTS befitted them the most to highlight that uniqueness, designating targets for squadron instead flying them into action. But alas that is no more:cap_old:

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7 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

So this will be like one of those games where you produce units and they kill each other without your input?

yes pls i loike lazy gameplay and watching planes with 50mm autocannons go broomy zoom.

 

Although would make sense for the game itself, in-general.

 

Nope. The thing that Kills units will be mostly you in Fighters.

The Dive Bomber and Torpedo Bomber Consumables are way more like a Side thing.

They will likely not kill that many Players. Albeit they will of course be good to get some extra damage and to Punish Stationary Battleships.

After all if Yamato Sits there open Water alone and you got Haku with 12 Automated Torps Dropping this will still hurt :P

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20 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It will be a 1vs1 with skill gap. Though it could work, if you allow more CVs each side, like 4vs4 cvs. Then it would close the skill gap more. But still, having the bombers automated would be weird, people are already complaining about, that this is world of warplane, and now the interaction with the ships would become automated and only dog fights against planes ^^

 

I would assume only like 10% would really hate CV. I would assume 30% dislikes. A lot are okay with that and some really like it. It's just, that people often only notice the complains, but nobody notices those people, who are fine with them and don't care about the CV discussion ;)

 

I played Steel Ocean, AAA was manual, Secondaries were manual. Steel Ocean is over all worse, worse graphic and weird damage models, but in those cases, it was better and more fun. You could fire with the secondaries of a CV on SS and DDs. A Submarine could fire the guns against a low hp dd. That was so much fun...

 

1.

Thats an very unrealistic assumption. Polls might not be Representative. But given that pretty much all Polls no matter if Reddit Steam or In this Forum usually showed at least 60% disliking CVs it is fairly safe to assume that this is a Correct Estimate.

And only 10% hating CVs would heavily Disagree with these Polls often having up to 20% people Vote for Removing CVs from the Game.

So Sorry but I will stick to my own Assumption here. 60% or more of the Players Hate CVs right now. And given that even alot of the CV Players dislike CVs right now I would assume that even claiming 20% of the Community is OK with CVs is a massive and unrealistic overstatement.

 

Assumption is Assumption of Course. But if nothing else I can use Forum Search to Immediately find 3 Polls saying vast Majority Dislikes CVs and is absolutely not OK with them.

Mind Showing me your Source for seriously assuming that 60% of Community are at least OK with CVs ? :)

Or is that one of these "80% of Players dont care for Forums and thus I can claim them to like whatever I want them to like" things ? ^^

 

2.

Thing is. Steel Ocean is Dead lol

https://steamcharts.com/app/390670

 

Reason why Wargaming Caters to the Average Player and largely ignores Unicums is because they want to be Attractive to an Playerbase as large as possible.

Hence they they wont be doing such Multitasking stuff.

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51 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It will be a 1vs1 with skill gap.

 

If you haven't noticed, current CV play still is a 1vs1 with an extreme skill gap. It's just that it has shifted from actually fighting each other to whoever can kill the other team's "bots" faster.

To the severe detriment of said bots ofc.

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Dead horse is dead.

Massive changes won't happen. What's suggested here won't happen.

Survivability und spotting need to go. Damage can stay.

I wasted my time writing this and everybody's, who's unlucky enough to read it.

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27 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Assumption is Assumption of Course. But if nothing else I can use Forum Search to Immediately find 3 Polls saying vast Majority Dislikes CVs and is absolutely not OK with them.

Are those polls showing the people, who doesn't care and because of that they didn't vote? ;)
I can just repeat: That what is noticed are complaints. If you get every match one complaint over CV, you would notice that and it feels like "Everyone is complaining every match", but at the end there is only one person, who is complaining, that is ~5% of the players in a match

 

31 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

2.

Thing is. Steel Ocean is Dead lol

https://steamcharts.com/app/390670

So? Many games are dead, what's the point? xD

 

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1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

I would assume only like 10% would really hate CV. I would assume 30% dislikes. A lot are okay with that and some really like it. It's just, that people often only notice the complains, but nobody notices those people, who are fine with them and don't care about the CV discussion ;)

 

 

Given that the CV playerbase is comically small (e.g. single digit percentages) - I would assume it's a damn sight bigger than 10% that hate/loathe/despise/detest/would rather do anything else other than play them. The rework failed utterly, totally and miserably in it's goals of removing the skill gap - it just removed any skill whatsoever. It flopped totally in getting more than a handful of players to stick with the new class. It also buggered up every other class in the process (with perhaps the exception of BBs - but these were still negatively impacted overall). The list of reasons to despise the existence of CVs is very long, detailed and WG hasn't exactly done a great job in solving the major issues particularly quickly (a full year to remove slingshot for example). 

 

On topic - CVs do actually need to be able to play vs. eachother. I know, shock horror - they ACTUALLY need to be able to impact upon the opposing team's CV.

 

1)You either do this by removing the CV's totally ridiculous resistance to fires + floods allowing CV vs. CV strikes. Or...

 

2) You make fighters an actual viable air-to-air option capable of disrupting the actions of an opposing CV. As in breaking up an attack before they've been able to YOLO past 3 AA cruisers and AP bomb the crap out of whatever target takes their fancy.

 

Every other class is perfectly capable of engaging it's red counterparts - so why keep CVs exempt? 

 

 

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On 5/24/2020 at 4:44 PM, thisismalacoda said:

Dead horse is dead.

Massive changes won't happen. What's suggested here won't happen.

Survivability und spotting need to go. Damage can stay.

I wasted my time writing this and everybody's, who's unlucky enough to read it.

 

Massive Changes wont happen.

Somehow I remember this Statement from RTS Times ^^

We all know how that ended xD

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