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I don't think Duke of York is a very good ship, just worse copy of the King George V. In fact I think it's thoroughly a "Meh bote", only made worse by the (now not so recent) citadel nerf that got applied to the whole line of RN BBs.

 

The problem: she's squishy AND has no teeth

The crux is that she is a modern, all-or-nothing armour scheme ship, but with relatively small guns at tier 7.

 

Out of the 12 tier 7 battleships, 6 (so half) of them use the all-or-nothing armour scheme, crucially important at tier 7, because as we know, tier 7 BBs only get 26mm plating so they massively vulnerable to any ship with 15" guns (not to mention light cruisers spamming HE). (I find this more than a little ironic considering till Yamato was launched, the class were the most heavily armoured ships in the world, but I digress)
 

Out of those 12 tier 7 BBs, all but 5 of them (DoY, KGV, Lyon, Scharnhorst and Poltava) have 15" guns or bigger. BUT Lyon, Scharnhorst and Poltava have a distributed armour scheme. Leaving only Duke of York and her sister ship KGV, vulnerable to being over-matched through the bow and citadelled, but unable to do the same in reply, in theory only being able to over-match 24.895mm.

 

KGV's not nearly as hard done-by with a 20% faster reload than Duke of York, making her a far more potent HE spammer. DoY has no such luck, only a fractionally quicker cool on her damage control and heal, slightly better AA (but not enough to make any appreciable difference), and hydro instead of a spotter plane, kind of a niche item on a long-range support oriented battleship.

 

The suggestion: Make Duke of York a tier 8

I know WG would never do this as it would mean "upgrading" people's ships and where is the profit in that? But business aside...

 

The DoY (and KGV) are some of the only modern battleships at tier 7, the only others being Scharnhorst and Gneisenau (and they're historically speaking, questionably true battleships at all) so at tier 8 she would be matched up with contemporary battleships from history.

The original statement from WG when the RN BB line was released was that "14" guns were too small at tier 8", but I counter with "they're the same size at tier 7 or tier 8"...

At tier 8 it doesn't matter as much that they can't over-pen the plating of another battleship, because NO tier 8 battleships can, and with the 32mm plating that comes with tier 8, she will be safer from her peers too.
 

Of course the other stats of the ship will have to be buffed too with the raise in tier, but as for her guns, I think a simple reload buff, say to roughly 23-25s (probably slightly faster than the 15" Monarch and KGV), and the accuracy improved greatly.
The big problem will be cruisers, as at tier 8, they will all be able to bounce her AP shells of the nose, so you could look at giving her shells slightly improved ricochet angles to help her deal with them, but she might not even need that since she already fights them most matches anyway.

There are plenty of stats they could use to boost her effectiveness at tier 8 (should it be needed), once the fundamental flaws of her design at tier 7 have been taken care of. Eg restore the 0.033s fuse time regular battleships get (also reflective of Prince of Wales' underwater hit on Bismarck which penetrated under the belt and exploded against the inner bulkhead, flooding part of her citadel), increase turret rotation speed, increase her krupp values, or even give her higher base AP damage since her shells had larger bursting charges (so would do more actual damage irl) than most 16" guns. Giving her radar instead of hydro would be a fun nod to the Battle of the North Cape.

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So, image below is just to make my point, no statshaming here cause you clearly know your BB.

BB.thumb.jpg.5d96d593206a8efc682f1b4c16a371ee.jpg

 

Right away I'll discard Nagato out of the equation, only 9 battles just aint relevant. That leaves us with the 6 other tier VII BB that you've played so far.

They DoY really stands out in terms of WR, you can't seem to get enough wins in her. All other statistics are on par with the other BB (apart from the Nelson dmg, but maybe that's cause you use HE a bit more frequently on that one?).

So from looking at this, she seems more or less on par with all other BB. Yes you get the feeling that she isn't, cause you aint winning that much, but these stats show she is performing more or less the same.

The fact that she is a more vulnerable BB makes it harder to carry in probably?

 

Just for reference, below the EU server stats for top 5% players, this shows that she is an average ship but certainly not the worst in capable hands.

 

BBtop5.thumb.jpg.bc68f1b1a8cc57dbf2a4357ddcf5c959.jpg

 

And if you wouldn't mind checking the server wide stats for all players, this will show the same picture. The DoY is a average BB, most certainly not the best. But there are also ships that perform worse.

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I think the point is that it’s a definite downgrade to the King George V.

 

King George V just happens to be one of the strongest tier 7s.


4.5s worse reload for hydro is a very poor trade for the duke of York. Reducing reload slightly would be how I’d deal with it.

 

However you would still end up with two ships that are very similar.

 

 

 

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But DoY already has improved pen angles on her AP shells (as one of the only two battleships in the game).

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3 minutes ago, Yamashiro42 said:

But DoY already has improved pen angles and standard fuse time on her AP shells, iirc...

She has the angles but both have the same fuse time.

 

Hood’s fuse time was changed though.

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1 minute ago, gopher31 said:

She has the angles but both have the same fuse time.

 

Hood’s fuse time was changed though.

Yeah, I have already corrected my post while you were typing the response. :cap_yes:

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5 hours ago, Daemon_Blackfyre said:

In fact I think it's thoroughly a "Meh bote"

Because she was handed for free during 2017 Christmas :cap_tea: You haven't expected a gud bote for free, have you?

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For a KGV at T8 I would go with Anson or Howe, they were essentially 'batch 2' ships and with the right jiggery and soft stats they could be unique ships. WG's argument for '14" guns don't work at T8' falls apart consideirng how many 15" gun ships they are trying to force in at T9.

 

 

Would be nice to have a capable RN BB at T8, instead of the craptastic pair of Monarch and Vanguard.

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2 hours ago, gopher31 said:

I think the point is that it’s a definite downgrade to the King George V.

 

Nah DoY isnt. You just have to make use of the better AP. Absolute cruiser killer. Used to be my go-to-T7-BB

 

2 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

And if you wouldn't mind checking the server wide stats for all players, this will show the same picture. The DoY is a average BB, most certainly not the best. But there are also ships that perform worse.

 

DoY was hurt by 2 things:

- Raised citadel

- Changed matchmaking for T7 which throws you into T9 games a lot

 

Now one of those would have been possible to work around but the combination is horrible. The overmatchable bow plating when you are low tier in combo with the raised citadels makes you take citas from almost all angles. Not to mention that WG likes to throw around high calibre BBs more and more.

 

I dont think I could reproduce my stats with her in the current situation. Actually, I dont even want to try.

 

Making Duke of York great again: lower the citadel again. It was a wrong move anyway.

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I think its quite a simple fix for both KGV and DOY:

- Revert the raised Citadel

or

- Buff the plating to 27mm, this will atleast make them withstand 380mm guns.

 

I dont see any reason to play KGV/DOY right now, as it is, they are just the worst T7 BBs out there (atleast DOY, KGV is slightly better with the faster reload, which makes it a stronger HE spammer, leaving DOY with the AP).

And then there is the problem with the change to MM, where T7 faces T9 more often these days.

 

7 hours ago, Daemon_Blackfyre said:

The original statement from WG when the RN BB line was released was that "14" guns were too small at tier 8"

 

I think that often doesnt make sense. Bourgogne is exceptionally strong with 380mm guns - smallest of them all on TX, fails at overmatching basicly any Cruiser, except for the bow/stern. Even Alsace was very strong, before they nerfed the Sigma to make it worse than Bourgogne. And Alsace doesnt have the reloadbooster from Bourgogne either, but it still works.

So i think smaller guns can work, maybe needs some additional tweaks to other areas.

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7 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

I think that often doesnt make sense. Bourgogne is exceptionally strong with 380mm guns - smallest of them all on TX, fails at overmatching basicly any Cruiser, except for the bow/stern. Even Alsace was very strong, before they nerfed the Sigma to make it worse than Bourgogne. And Alsace doesnt have the reloadbooster from Bourgogne either, but it still works.

So i think smaller guns can work, maybe needs some additional tweaks to other areas.

Ye smoll guns, need to be pretty accurate and also have decent rate of fire to counter lack of alpha and overmatch.

A 356 mm BB at tier 10 could work, but would need a lot of work on the guns.

 

Although you could make her into a very heavily armed supercruiser and stick her in a cruiser slot.

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DoY was supposed to be completely different, something like Georgia with hyper accurate guns, however WG pulled the plug in the last moment couse they deemed the lack of heal that was supposed to go with that is not acceptable and in the end we ednded up with well...

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2 hours ago, Yamashiro42 said:

Yeah, I have already corrected my post while you were typing the response. :cap_yes:

Well I actually didn’t know the DOY had improved ricochet angles until today.

 

Might give it another go in ranked.

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1 hour ago, Panocek said:

Because she was handed for free during 2017 Christmas :cap_tea: You haven't expected a gud bote for free, have you?

I was going to say the same thing. WG do this, Genova is another example of a meh premium given away during an event. Fully expecting the Mikoyan to be another meh

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52 minutes ago, The_White_Whale said:

Would be nice to have a capable RN BB at T8, instead of the craptastic pair of Monarch and Vanguard.

But but but but.... Monarch is a Tier VIII KGV with 15 inch guns and Tier VIII plating. And Lion is also an improved KGV.... the problem with British battleships in this game is that they form a sensible and logical progression... once Jacky Fisher is out of the picture there are no fantastical ships, no "Churchill's Monsters" to make from napkin sketches. It's all much too sensible. 

 

Personally I would leave DoY at Tier VII and just revert the citadel changes. KGV is very close to a super-cruiser with her fast reload and HE spam, so make DoY more of a Warspite, tankier with more accurate AP. 

 

5 minutes ago, Commander_Ericson said:

I was going to say the same thing. WG do this, Genova is another example of a meh premium given away during an event.

Genova remains hilariously wonky, and I'll happily have more of that type of ship in the game. It looks like a cut-price battleship and is, in fact, a torpedo cruiser. If you want a meh event ship then Siroco - a cut and paste Tier IV with a nice camo and MBRB - is your girl.

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26 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

once Jacky Fisher is out of the picture there are no fantastical ships, no "Churchill's Monsters" to make from napkin sketches. It's all much too sensible. 

On the contrary there were many crazy and conventional paper ships. Even excluding the many versions of Lion that went increasingly crazy.

 

https://warshipprojects.com/2017/09/27/washington-cherry-trees-ii-part-3/

 

 

And speaking of 'Churchills monsters' the T10 RN CA cruiser should have been the Churchill super cruiser, instead of the bland mini-Conq.

 

https://www.deviantart.com/tzoli/art/Churchill-s-Super-Cruiser-427601973

 

 

Or add a T8 KGV, call it Anson, give the secondaries 6km base range and a new consumable 'Radar fire control' +20% main and secondary gun range.

 

Do the same with the Vanguard and bingo.

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2 minutes ago, The_White_Whale said:

Ah yes, G3, N3, K3 and all points in between. All distinguished by the fact the Royal Navy knew they could actually build them, as shown by the designs being cut down into the Nelson class. But, had they been built, I suspect they would have been a liability in WW2, 1920s designs and huge targets for submarines and aircraft and (no doubt) lacking the modern defensive features of the KGVs, Lions and Vanguard. 

 

7 minutes ago, The_White_Whale said:

And speaking of 'Churchills monsters' the T10 RN CA cruiser should have been the Churchill super cruiser, instead of the bland mini-Conq.

That looks like Albemarle..... :)

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Every single point you made can be summed up as: you have no clue how to play the DoY. Try loading AP for once.

 

Also, 2 nitpicks

  • KGV has 15% (well, 15.25%) faster reload, DoY has 18% slower reload. Neither of those is 20%.
  • And DoY isn't and has never been "a long-range support oriented battleship". In fact, that's a common mis-position for the entire RN BB line. They excel at mid range, there's a reason you have that level of concealment available on them.
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1 hour ago, Commander_Ericson said:

I was going to say the same thing. WG do this, Genova is another example of a meh premium given away during an event. Fully expecting the Mikoyan to be another meh

Extra pen on Mikoyan guns is absolute overkill on cruisers. 30mm base HE pen is nice, but so does have Kirov, which will turn premium soon.

Improved ricochet angles might be nice. But will they be nice enough to compensate for one turret less, especially as Kirov have epic rear turret firing arc?

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Duke of York is, or more accurately was one of the nicest boats at VII: Excellent AP, British HE, floating drydock heal, and cruiser levels of concealment.10 barrels on target with good angles on the rear gun. Tanky armour. 

 

Then WeeGee decided British BBs needed to be more vulnerable to the new Russian BBs and moved the citadels up to the funnels, and shortly after 'improved' the matchmaker for Tier VIII by shifting the up-tiering problem down to VII. 

 

So now you get to face Musashis and Georgias all the time in it, who can citadel you through the nose at any range and angle. 

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1 hour ago, _Dunc_ said:

10 barrels on target with good angles on the rear gun.

 

DoY aft turret angles are horrible.

 

1 hour ago, _Dunc_ said:

Then WeeGee decided British BBs needed to be more vulnerable to the new Russian BBs

 

Sure, let's blame Soviet BBs for everything. From the moment RN BBs are released there were complains about their quite invulnerable citadel. But when WG finally did something about about it now some are complain that WG did that because of Soviet BBs? Sigh

 

There is no chance that WG will ever move DoY to T8. She will stay on T7 and all changes to the ship will happen there. I agree that rising the citadel was huge nerf for a ship and that now she is quite mediocre, not that she was anything special before. But there are still three other ships of KGV class and WG could do better job with HMS Anson for example as T8 BB. But doing all that job for DoY would probably not be to preofitable for them as lot of players already got her for free and even more players already have them. So why waste money on ship they probably consider fine when they can get more money from one of her sisters instead.

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Just now, fumtu said:

 

DoY aft turret angles are horrible.

 

 

Sure, let's blame Soviet BBs for everything. From the moment RN BBs are released there were complains about their quite invulnerable citadel. But when WG finally did something about about it now some are complain that WG did that because of Soviet BBs? Sigh

 

I'm being facetious, although it's curious they got a pretty solid nerf right at the point the RU BBs appear. There was nothing wrong with the citadels where they were on the British BBs, certainly on the mid-tiers where the trade-off for difficult to hit citadel was the hopeless AP fusing meaning you'd rarely citadel a BB in return. 

 

As for the rear turret - it's good enough for the armour scheme, and helped by the good rudder shift and general turning circle. 

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Well in the initial announcement of the RN BB line the KGV was meant to be Tier 8 but due to the oh so skilled Supertesters it was deemed that being able to overmatch bow in cruisers was more important than not being overmatched by every BB bar Scharnhorst and itself... So rather than just being overmatched by Yamato and Musashi, you get overmatched by everything including Bayerns, and instead we got the slapped together at the last minute mashup of a ship called the Monarch (which I refused to even purchase and skipped case the KGV should have been there...).

 

Though this doesn't really matter seeing as it is just about the most unfun BB line to play and play against cause the stupid HE gimmick WG gave them... the T9 Lion is the most unaccurate BB I have ever had the misfortune of playing even the Lyon and Scharnhorst felt laser accurate in comparison... Good thing I have the Fun RN BBs that can hit what you aim at; Warspite, Hood, Vanguard and Thunderer...

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2 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Every single point you made can be summed up as: you have no clue how to play the DoY. Try loading AP for once.

 

Also, 2 nitpicks

  • KGV has 15% (well, 15.25%) faster reload, DoY has 18% slower reload. Neither of those is 20%.
  • And DoY isn't and has never been "a long-range support oriented battleship". In fact, that's a common mis-position for the entire RN BB line. They excel at mid range, there's a reason you have that level of concealment available on them.

Except I tend to use AP at least 70% of the time (as I do on most of the British battleships, because Nobody expects the Conqueror armour-piercing! Our chief weapon is surprise...). And try to push as much as possible, but not as much as other nations battleships, what with their terrible forward firing angles, massively exposed citadel, huge areas of 26mm plating, negligible torpedo protection etc.

I just don't play them like I see most people do, and I get the feeling WG wants you to do. What you tend to see if DoYs hanging around the back, lobbing HE, and apparently most of them are doing better than I am, pushing in to around 10km.

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