Is there any chance for Audacious to get a buff to bring her in line with Hakuryuu and Midway?

[OVanBruce]

Having researched her today the ship feels very underwhelming, specially the bombs, Why? Because the bread and butter of the Royal Nav CVs seem to be floods+fires more than the other lines yet the chance of fires on the bombs is absolutely abyssmal. This kind of result isn't unusual.

 

Anyway, please give some love to Audacious, she's really the ugly duck in the park

[Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu]

2 month snapshot, Audacious is still top winrate and rivaling Haku in terms of kills and equally Midway for damage. For randoms Audacious is fine.

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/index.html

 

She has the best rockets for annihilating DDs, good dot chance on all armament, 41mm pen on bombs (which she can drop 18 of), easy to use torpedos, great turning on planes makes follow ups swift and good plane HP.

Only downsides are the rockets that dont pen 30mm making them less useful on cruisers and BBs, the lacking options for damage against 50mm+ armored targets and the low plane speed.

 

[lossi_2018]

[Miragetank90]

The only decent thing Audacious has going for it is the torps, which have a good flood chance, OK damage, and are easy to land for maximum effect. 

The rest is not good relative to the competition. Especially the bombs. Rockets also suffer from poor accuracy and bad pen, leaving them as being useful really only against DDs and low-tier cruisers(or Mino).

 

Everything Audacious can do, Midway can do better. i.e. You can line up the DOTs and be dealing the raw alpha per strike at the same time and you have the better tools to fit any situation. 

 

[Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu]

9 hours ago, Miragetank90 said:

Everything Audacious can do, Midway can do better

Except, according to stats, winning, damage and kills.

[Miragetank90]

34 minutes ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

Except, according to stats, winning, damage and kills.

 

For a fraction of the battles, so there's that I guess =)

 

[Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu]

15 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

For a fraction of the battles, so there's that I guess =)

True it was just those two months.

 

And the two months before that

 

And the two months before that

 

And the two months before that

 

And the two months before that

 

Or like overall of all time since the rework.

 

But other than that, yeah, totally inferior to Midway.

[Miragetank90]

13 minutes ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

But other than that, yeah, totally inferior to Midway.

 

Yes. You don't have to accept that, if you don't want to, but being snide when trying to present your argument is not a good look babe. 

[Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu]

7 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

 

Yes. You don't have to accept that, if you don't want to, but being snide when trying to present your argument is not a good look babe. 

You could have just checked the original source I provided and seen that your comment was not actually correct since, with regards to the topic, Audacious is not underperformaing and infact consistently outperforms Midway.

[Miragetank90]

53 minutes ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

You could have just checked the original source I provided and seen that your comment was not actually correct since, with regards to the topic, Audacious is not underperformaing and infact consistently outperforms Midway.

 

Maybe you missed that I noted Audacious has a mere third of the total number of battles Midway has? Not to mention an even greater disparity in battle counts for each of the 2 month results. So yes, I did check your original source. And FYI, I never said that Audacious is underperforming. I said Midway is the superior CV.

 

If we base it on those stats alone as does your argument, then Audacious should be closest rival for the top spot in competitive. Since it so good it's outperforming Midway and closer to Haku, surely that would make it a top pick. Well, it isn't. Not at all. Why? Because the tools Audacious gets are crap compared to Haku, and they're also crap compared to Midway. That's just the truth. If you don't have a Haku, the next choice is Midway. Objectively speaking Audacious relies too heavily on DOT damage to be considered superior to Midway, which easily deals more damage faster, and more consistently to any target, while also stacking DOTS like no tomorrow. Midway easily ticks most of the good bits of Audacious and then some, while also picking up the slack in the rockets and bombs of the latter.

 

Is it fine in randoms? Yes, no argument here. Actually, it's fun. Is it better and therefore more competitive than Midway? Definitely not, in spite of what the spreadsheet shows. 

 

My comment is not incorrect. You can think so though, I'm fine with that. 

 

[Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu]

18 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

Maybe you missed that I noted Audacious has a mere third of the total number of battles Midway has? Not to mention an even greater disparity in battle counts for each of the 2 month results. So yes, I did check your original source. And FYI, I never said that Audacious is underperforming. I said Midway is the superior CV

So more Midways and Hakus exist than Audacious. Probably because Audacious is 2 years younger. The sample size is still sufficient to demonstrate over almost 70k battles over 10 months that Audacious is consistently performing better on average than Midway. And its overall stats since the rework started demonstrate the same.

22 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

If we base it on those stats alone as does your argument, then Audacious should be closest rival for the top spot in competitive.

No, and I said in my first post that in randoms Audacious is fine. Although better than Midway it is notably inferior to Haku, and thus is simply not viable for competitive. But this is an issue of Haku being too strong, not that Audacious is too weak.

24 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

Midway easily ticks all the good bits of Audacious and then some

Then why does it perform worse? Also, this is wrong anyway, since Audacious' ability to decimate DDs trumps what Midway provides.

25 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

Is it better and therefore more competitive than Midway? Definitely not, in spite of what the spreadsheet shows. 

The CV that gets less kills, deals less damage and as a result of its toolkit and parameters wins less games is somehow the better ship? There is no logic to this, and the fact that Midway has even received buffs in recent history shows it is underperforming.

25 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

My comment is not incorrect.

You said Midway was superior. In some aspects it is. In some aspects Audacious is superior.

Overall, Audacious is superior. So, you are incorrect.

 

You can argue they don't perform the same, that is blatantly obvious, we all knows they have different planes that work in different ways. But whether they are good or not depends on the results they produce. It is clear, and has been for a long time, that Audacious is stronger than Midway.

[Miragetank90]

1 hour ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

But this is an issue of Haku being too strong, not that Audacious is too weak.

 

Again with the putting words in my mouth? I said Midway is superior. Not that Audacious is too weak. 

 

1 hour ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

Then why does it perform worse? Also, this is wrong anyway, since Audacious' ability to decimate DDs trumps what Midway provides.

 

And you can't do that and more with Midway? 

Audacious rockets are an easier time Vs DDs than Tiny Tims. And yet Tiny Tims can still do major damage to any DD provided you can aim, and much more besides, unlike Audacious rockets. Hardly trumping anything. 

 

1 hour ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

Overall, Audacious is superior. So, you are incorrect.

 

No. You are making comparisons on the two based largely on their average stats, without actually weighing each CV against the other. Or, if you are and you still come to the same conclusion, you are incorrect. 

 

1 hour ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

It is clear, and has been for a long time, that Audacious is stronger than Midway.

 

According to who exactly? To you and the speadsheet?

I challenge you to find one top CV player which unapologetic-ally believes Audacious is flat out superior to Midway. 

I think what you find may surprise you. 

Just because randoms on average have an easier time in Audacious than Midway proves nothing. And no, before I get words put in my mouth again, it doesn't mean the stats are worthless, just that they are not necessarily indicative of the whole picture on which is the superior ship.

 

But it's not like either of us are going to be convinced of each other's viewpoints anyway. Have a like for toning down the snide, and because I like you <3

[steveraptor]

On 5/14/2020 at 2:34 AM, OVanBruce said:

Having researched her today the ship feels very underwhelming, specially the bombs, Why? Because the bread and butter of the Royal Nav CVs seem to be floods+fires more than the other lines yet the chance of fires on the bombs is absolutely abyssmal. This kind of result isn't unusual.

 

Anyway, please give some love to Audacious, she's really the ugly duck in the park

Takes a lot of courage to ask for CV buffs on this forums, Il give you that.

[CptMinia]

Hello @Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu and @Miragetank90,

                                                                                        I'm going to chime in here. If we look at the statistics of the playerbase Audacious is superior to the Midway by a slim margin, you cannot argue against numbers and facts gathered from a large pool of the WoWS playerbase. Audacious is superior to the community as a whole and even when you trim the numbers down to skilled players she remains above the Midway but is easily overtaken by the Hakuryu. While I would concede that Midway has more potential than Audacious, the numbers show that Audacious is the more reliable CV. With that in mind I do not think we will be seeing a buff for the Audacious for a while, it is unlikely to happen to answer your question @OVanBruce. But we never know.

 

Kind regards,

                       Minia

[Panocek]

On 5/14/2020 at 2:59 AM, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

She has the best rockets for annihilating DDs, good dot chance on all armament, 41mm pen on bombs (which she can drop 18 of), easy to use torpedos, great turning on planes makes follow ups swift and good plane HP.

Only downsides are the rockets that dont pen 30mm making them less useful on cruisers and BBs, the lacking options for damage against 50mm+ armored targets and the low plane speed.

Rockets have absolutely atrocious accuracy, so you can consider yourself lucky if you land more than 8 rockets (out of 36/42) and they actually do damage instead being soaked by modules. Throw long preparation time, thus its nigh impossible to attack unspotted DD that is going for head on, only 27mm which makes them ineffective against T10 cruisers and you have... mediocre tool entirely balanced around RNG accuracy and fires.

 

Bombs have the same issue of struggling hitting a continent, let alone an warship. 41mm HE pen is nice against UK/US/FR battleships, but fall very flat against IJN/RU/Ger, which also happen to be the most common, reducing them to firestarting and occasional superstructure hit. Which results, again, in tool that lives and dies by RNGesus hands.

 

Torpedoes are only thing that can be considered good about Audacious and even there she faces stiff competition from other carriers.

[Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu]

15 hours ago, Miragetank90 said:

Again with the putting words in my mouth? I said Midway is superior. Not that Audacious is too weak.

Who is putting words in whose mouth? You claim I argue above that Audacious is better and therefore more competitive than Midway when I said no such thing? Statistically it outperforms Midway in the only metric worth measuring for randoms and that is its results in randoms. If Midways tools are better than Audacious for randoms then why does it get less kills, deal less damage and win less games? Or is it just that Audacious has some sort of small above average fanbase that play above average while Midway is dragged down by some brainless USN diehards (which maybe it does, it has almost more games than haku and audacious combined)? Because even with the biggest possible sample, Audacious still beats Midway on averages.

Quote

And you can't do that and more with Midway? 

Audacious rockets are an easier time Vs DDs than Tiny Tims. And yet Tiny Tims can still do major damage to any DD provided you can aim, and much more besides, unlike Audacious rockets. Hardly trumping anything. 

If you actually think that Midway can compete with Audacious in killing DDs with rockets then you really do not know what you are talking about. Sure, Midway may get lucky with TTs or even use HVARs for a more consistent DD counter, but in the long run Audacious rockets will produce better results. And ultimately, being able to consistently deny the enemy their DDs gives Audacious an edge in every single game. Audacious struggles more in games where the enemy is predominantly heavy armored, a scenario that Midway does not struggle in. But that case is not typical in randoms, team composition is generally mixed which is just fine for Audacious. If a games win condition is to deny the enemy their DDs then Audacious is the best CV for doing that. Which is why its not valuable for CW right now because the meta is just haku/stalin/venezia, the only DD worth bringing is Halland because all CVs struggle to counter it.

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No. You are making comparisons on the two based largely on their average stats, without actually weighing each CV against the other. Or, if you are and you still come to the same conclusion, you are incorrect. 

I even enjoy playing Midway more myself and after obtaining Audacious I had nothing but absolutely terrible games but I will still maintain that if I want to actually win random games that I will take Audacious over Midway, and then I will not be an idiot and will take Haku because its better than both. Audacious has better tools for winning games than Midway.

Quote

According to who exactly? To you and the speadsheet?

I challenge you to find one top CV player which unapologetic-ally believes Audacious is flat out superior to Midway. 

I think what you find may surprise you. 

Just because randoms on average have an easier time in Audacious than Midway proves nothing. And no, before I get words put in my mouth again, it doesn't mean the stats are worthless, just that they are not necessarily indicative of the whole picture on which is the superior ship.

Well as I said above I prefer Midway and why would I not with an experience like this.

I love my RN ships but every game with Audacious was just abyssmal.

 

And every other RN ship.

 

I'm not allowed to enjoy any of them apparently.

 

My RN is cursed.

 

But I still believe the Audacious is the better CV for randoms. Just I myself am not an example of this.

I would question what you believe indicates that the Midway is better if not its performance? There is no other metric worth comparing. Popularity? Real world service? Value in competetive meta only?

 

I agree with everything you say when you compare the two ships, except that your conclusion is that Midway is better. Midway is different, yes, you have clearly outlined the ways that Midway is different, it has its own advantages compared to both Haku and Audacious. Applause to WG for succeeding in one aspect of the CV rework by creating a CV environment where national difference are more significant. But it is worse, it is clear after months of performing worse and needing buffs that it is not as good as Audacious. Midway is the next best option after Haku for small team environments like current CW because it can deliver alpha quickly on targets with 50mm armor, which is Audacious big meta failing, but thats just how CW slowly devolves into something worse and worse as more and more people buy Stalingrad. During the season where people were even running teams of Klebers then Audacious would have been the best option. This decision is meta dependent and Midway being more valuable in CW right now is not an indiciation that it is overally a better ship than Audacious, just that what it brings is more valuable in respect of the current meta.

 

When it comes to ship balance WGs priority is always randoms performance since that is 90%+ of time invested by the playerbase. And in that regard Audacious and Midway are incredibly similar in their performance, but Midway is always just that little bit worse. You can say it is better, but it still performs worse, and outperforming Midway is certainly proof of my original statement that Audacious does not need buffs.

 

6 hours ago, Panocek said:

Rockets have absolutely atrocious accuracy, so you can consider yourself lucky if you land more than 8 rockets (out of 36/42) and they actually do damage instead being soaked by modules. Throw long preparation time, thus its nigh impossible to attack unspotted DD that is going for head on, only 27mm which makes them ineffective against T10 cruisers and you have... mediocre tool entirely balanced around RNG accuracy and fires.

It's true they are really only valuable against DDs and superstructure, but they saturate their area so much that it's almost impossible to miss and the only outcomes are either multiple hits or majority hits, producing consistent results. And if you do get good distribution on the rockets against a DD with an effective attack run you can cause massive damage.

 

And when it comes to consistent damage you've got;

Tiny Tims full salvo of 14,580 damage (1/3rd of full damage so the actual penetration damage)

Type 5s full salvo 17,010 damage
HVARs full salvo 20,000 damage

RP3s full salvos 32,900 damage

Not only do Audacious rockets have the most actual rockets, producing more consistent results, but they have the potential to do significantly more damage if distribution does go in your favor and even in the worst case scenario you will get some hits because 42 rockets simply cannot all miss, you will always do damage with a strike with these rockets unless you mess up the attack run yourself. When Midway has TT equipped then the dive bombers are the better choice to kill DDs.

 

And when it comes to stealthy DDs who turn their AA off and cant be spotted until you're too close to strike, this affects all CVs equally, but Audacious rockets can also turn around to follow up faster, reducing your targets time to react...

Quote

Bombs have the same issue of struggling hitting a continent, let alone an warship. 41mm HE pen is nice against UK/US/FR battleships, but fall very flat against IJN/RU/Ger, which also happen to be the most common, reducing them to firestarting and occasional superstructure hit. Which results, again, in tool that lives and dies by RNGesus hands.

The bombs are audacious weak point, certainly. Especially when they were bugged such that bombs took like 15 seconds to actually fall. The penetration is only compensated for with fire chance (stacking dots is something audacious does excel at) but farming dots without raw damage is not preferable and, as you say, relies on RNG... The bombs are also uncomfortable to use against targets that they can pen, like cruisers and DDs. They are a good tool to use against something that you know does not have DCP available.

Theres not much to say about the bombs, they are not strong. 18 of them with 35% fire chance sounds like good odds and they could potentially start a full 3/4 fires on a target with a single run. But the results are unreliable and the penetration is lacking.

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Torpedoes are only thing that can be considered good about Audacious and even there she faces stiff competition from other carriers.

Although on paper audacious is worst in damage, second in terms of flooding and second in terms of overall reaction time (torpedo reaction time and plane speed/concealment) Audacious does have an ace in her ability to turn and follow up on targets much more easily than the others. The strikes though are definitely not as impactful as her rivals, even Midways pathetic torps outshine Audacious in terms of raw output.

[Miragetank90]

1 hour ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

If you actually think that Midway can compete with Audacious in killing DDs with rockets then you really do not know what you are talking about.

 

That's why I said Audacious rockets have an easier time vs. DDs. 

The point I made is that Midway can still go after DDs with rockets with no big issue, while the Tiny Tims also bring flexibility to the table, and are effective against literally any target, something Audacious rockets cannot claim. Therefore, I consider your claim that it trumps Midway in this regard to be dubious.  

 

Looks like you and I are pretty much on the same page with everything else, save which ship is better. Yes, as I said initially Audacious bombs are weak, I'd say the weakest link in the toolkit. Torps are quite decent and the best thing about the ship. 

 

Overall, I value Midway above Audacious, and I'll go out on a limb and say most do, including those who are much better CV players than me. 

If I had to say why, probably because it's a complete package and as I mentioned previously, I consider the tools to be superior overall relative to Audacious, except perhaps in rockets vs. DD situations only, where Audacious has an edge. Torps are a mixed bag. DBs on Midway are far more powerful.