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Dutchy_2019

Bug in Co-op? Bots targeting team mates

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I am not sure whether that is on purpose or not, but IMHO there is a serious issue with team killing in Co-op involving bots.

 

- When you kill or damage a bot, you get warnings or pink. No matter how stupid the bot was acting.

 

- It seems to be with increasing frequency that bots are deliberately torping team-mates. Full torpedo spreads aimed at them. I just got torped by a complete complement of torps by an Emerald while lining up a run on a BB on my own. And it was not as if a few of them missed.... the aim was not even close, and actually perfect for how I was setting up my torp run. It is getting just about as bad as Yoshino back line torping. To me it seems that the bots have a hard time differentiating between enemy ship and friend.

 

 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

- When you kill or damage a bot, you get warnings or pink. No matter how stupid the bot was acting.

 

The best thing is: enemy bots dodging your torps perfectly while the bots on your team bend the law of physics to make sure to catch them xD

 

47 minutes ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

It seems to be with increasing frequency that bots are deliberately torping team-mates.

 

The bots just completly ignore friendlies. If you happen to be in the way: you gonna have a bad day.

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The bots have learned from the humans.......

Not sure if that's a good thing....... imagine a Bot version of El2aZer...........

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29 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

The best thing is: enemy bots dodging your torps perfectly while the bots on your team bend the law of physics to make sure to catch them xD

 

 

The bots just completly ignore friendlies. If you happen to be in the way: you gonna have a bad day.

 

And that's exactly the point. Just as with the other thread about bot AI people attribute all sorts of "clever" or "intentional" things to them, when all they have is pretty simplistic behaviour. Of course they can avoid enemy torps (they don't really seem to treat "friendly" torps as threats), aim well, focus fire or find players, because all this data is there.. on the server.. for the server to use.

 

What people are seeing is low effort work by WG through the filter of "WG always conspires against me".

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1 hour ago, ForlornSailor said:

The bots just completly ignore friendlies. If you happen to be in the way: you gonna have a bad day.

Bots from time to time was torping or firing at friendly ships, even when there was no spotted enemy ships/nobody in range, so i think it's probably a feature incorporated into a game by some joking programmist ;-)

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Not just this, but bots start to practice more and more pro-ramming runs: I tasted this "medicine" not just in co-op ( I only play co-op.s for some silly directives) but most in Op.s, and I noticed, several times in last days, how bots aim for ram;

Not once I was in a stationary position ( not moving, on middle of the sea, or running aground after I avoided a torp) and I watched bots ( cruisers AND bbs) accelerating at flank speed from 3-4 km ( with more than enough space to do any kind of maneuver ! ) only to smash hard in the middle of my ship...

 

The bots now use ramming in an active way, and given the chance, they will go for ram, most of the time.

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2 hours ago, SEN_SEN_Channel_Portugue said:

Not just this, but bots start to practice more and more pro-ramming runs: I tasted this "medicine" not just in co-op ( I only play co-op.s for some silly directives) but most in Op.s, and I noticed, several times in last days, how bots aim for ram;

Not once I was in a stationary position ( not moving, on middle of the sea, or running aground after I avoided a torp) and I watched bots ( cruisers AND bbs) accelerating at flank speed from 3-4 km ( with more than enough space to do any kind of maneuver ! ) only to smash hard in the middle of my ship...

 

The bots now use ramming in an active way, and given the chance, they will go for ram, most of the time.

Bots have been ramming forever, there's a Jingles video from years ago when the bots were first introduced where he points out how surprised he was when a bot rammed him.

 

The thing that I've only noticed recently (again something the bots seem to be cribbing from players...) is bots not actually doing anything at the start of the match, at least until first spotted: played a game yesterday on Straits where a couple of enemy bot Kirovs on our flank of the map let their battleships advance without them and were still in starting positions when we spotted them, at which point they began to actually participate...

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4 hours ago, Molly_Delaney said:

The bots have learned from the humans.......

 

have you played the Unreal Tournament before? at there bots act like real humans, really hard to understand if its bot or not

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3 minutes ago, gabberworld said:

 

have you played the Unreal Tournament before? at there bots act like real humans, really hard to understand if its bot or not

yep, used to run a server on a linux box.

it was fun to play against a team of bots on max settings, can't actually remember whether it was 100% or insanity or some other name.

Ran a gravity mod to allow huge jumps......

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1 hour ago, NobleSauvage said:

Bots have been ramming forever, there's a Jingles video from years ago when the bots were first introduced where he points out how surprised he was when a bot rammed him.

 

The thing that I've only noticed recently (again something the bots seem to be cribbing from players...) is bots not actually doing anything at the start of the match, at least until first spotted: played a game yesterday on Straits where a couple of enemy bot Kirovs on our flank of the map let their battleships advance without them and were still in starting positions when we spotted them, at which point they began to actually participate...

Ramming for years ? yeah, if you mean they will keep going no matter who is ahead ; But what I waned to pointed out is now they CHANGE COURSE to obtain the ramming, I mean you try to pull away, and they alter course actively in order to get the ramm. Another thing - I saw that many times in co-op - if your team go all one flank, and you go alone other flank, the whole fleet of bots will choose you, alone, on that flank, in an overwhelming rush,  and ignore the other 99% of the team.

Not once I found myself focused by 8-9 bots at a time, alone, in a flank, and on other side of the map the whole human team is fighting a single bot, cuz other bots all changed direction to hunt me, alone. Funny, tough. 

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4 hours ago, SEN_SEN_Channel_Portugue said:

Not once I found myself focused by 8-9 bots at a time, alone, in a flank, and on other side of the map the whole human team is fighting a single bot, cuz other bots all changed direction to hunt me, alone. Funny, tough. 

 Metoo have stories like that :) It made me giggle, how much Weegee seems to love me....

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It almost feels like that WG has started to use machine learning to train several kinds of bot AIs using players, binned by WR / PR or some other stat, as training material. At least that is what I would do if the AI system allows for it. :) There are some really clever bots that occasionally pop up sneaking up to you, doing clever maneuvering and such (or, possibly, me having an especially hard brainAFK), many normal bots and then there are a couple of completely braindead ones. The teamkilling also is present in the red bot team though, but the green bots tend to always be about 20% less capable than the reds (or maybe that is perception only).

 

I also believe to have noticed a tendency of red bots to become better against and more persistently target you the more influence on the current game you have accumulated. This might be done to even things out a bit, or maybe it's just that the dumb ones simply get killed first. A similar effect seems to exist between battles, though this could just be coincidence and is less noticable.

 

At least, the tendency to be assigned bots of higher tiers than anyone in your team has (mostly) stopped. Before, it was not uncommon to get a T8 bot fleet being the only T6 ship, often with a completely imbecile T8 bot CV to top it off. Of course, bot CVs should be banned altogether; with player CVs at least there is a chance they might actually be helpful.

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8 hours ago, SEN_SEN_Channel_Portugue said:

Ramming for years ? yeah, if you mean they will keep going no matter who is ahead ; But what I waned to pointed out is now they CHANGE COURSE to obtain the ramming, I mean you try to pull away, and they alter course actively in order to get the ramm. Another thing - I saw that many times in co-op - if your team go all one flank, and you go alone other flank, the whole fleet of bots will choose you, alone, on that flank, in an overwhelming rush,  and ignore the other 99% of the team.

Not once I found myself focused by 8-9 bots at a time, alone, in a flank, and on other side of the map the whole human team is fighting a single bot, cuz other bots all changed direction to hunt me, alone. Funny, tough. 

Yes, literally changing course to ram people. I've seen it since I started playing, and as I say I'm aware that it's been going on way longer than that. Had a game once where the last friendly was a bot against two enemies, and it chose to throw the game by ramming the first one even though it had more health than both put together and could probably have won the firefight. As far as singling lone players out goes, now there I could well believe that it was coincidence that they ended up going that way; the bots seem to vary the directions they take on a given map between games, and sometimes that means they do really stupid things (like all heading down a channel that doesn't lead to a cap).

 

42 minutes ago, Margarineoffizier said:

The teamkilling also is present in the red bot team though, but the green bots tend to always be about 20% less capable than the reds (or maybe that is perception only).

I get the impression that red bots are at least one difficulty level above green ones as well; aside from anything else they seem to be much better at dodging their own team's torpedoes, annoyingly...

 

44 minutes ago, Margarineoffizier said:

Of course, bot CVs should be banned altogether; with player CVs at least there is a chance they might actually be helpful.

Oh yes, bot CVs are hilariously bad. It seemed like for the longest time they didn't even know how to launch torpedoes or drop bombs, their planes just came along and did a little dip overhead then went back to circling; that seems to have changed in the last patch or so, but the CVs themselves all still use the same circular evasion routine when they get spotted.

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On 5/12/2020 at 12:25 PM, Odo_Toothless said:

Bots from time to time was torping or firing at friendly ships, even when there was no spotted enemy ships/nobody in range, so i think it's probably a feature incorporated into a game by some joking programmist ;-)

You don't seem to know that the bots don't follow all of the visibility rules as they work for human players, right?

Just check out where the enemy bot CV sends his planes - they always go for the nearest human team ship...

Bots detect torpedo launch in their sight range as soon as it happens and usually react to it. Being able to launch several launchers or single shot launchers helps against this.

On the other hand the bots often ignore you, even when you're a good target, when you're not attacking or targetting them yourself, while another ship does... helps in sneaking up to a bot even when fully visible to it...

 

So those torps probably are fired at ships that the bot knows of - meaning their position and course - while you can't see them yet, as they have not legally been spotted...

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1 minute ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

So those torps probably are fired at ships that the bot knows of - meaning their position and course - while you can't see them yet, as they have not legally been spotted...

I have games when I was with one bot vs one enemy bot straight ahead of us about 16 km. And it happend that such friendly bot fired his own guns or torped me. I sent a replay to WG, thay answered that it's a known bug. that from time to time bots are firing at friendly ships :-P

 

image.png.ba0184e043b36389ff1d4418a8eb4b67.png

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5 hours ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

Just check out where the enemy bot CV sends his planes - they always go for the nearest human team ship...

Ehmmm, no. Or at least not for their first attack: although I hardly ever play coop, the first bot plane squad always aims for the ship with less HP, no matter if human or AI, nor how far from the CV it is.

 

Salute.

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This might even be reasonable behaviour, actually: since match startup is mirrored, the bot CV can legally know where which enemy ships start by looking at it's own fleet, and also is allowed to know the enemy team's composition, aiming for the lowest HP ship, usually a DD of course, is OK. This info is available to the players also, they could do the same. What the players cannot do, however, is know where the enemy CV is headed and adjust their course accordingly before it actually has been spotted, which I feel the bots are doing...

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