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Lea_Flamma

IJN Torp boats in the current meta?

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I have had a small break from the game, but recently returned with the release of the European line. And I must admit, the gameplay changed quite a bit. Not in terms of ships, just the approach to combat and class roles. I have been trying to play some Kagero the other day and well... I am quite bamboozled on what I should do with her now.

 

  • 5.4km stealth is best in class, wonderful if not for all the radar and CVs in the games right now;
  • 10km torps used to be good on her, but now there are so many 10-12km radars, its impossible to make consecutive torpedo attacks;
  • pitiful guns, with good alpha, but sluggish rotation and long reload;
  • the ship is slow, like seriously slow; if you get detected, you are not escaping and if you get radared, anything and their mothers can just rush you.

 

I seriously struggle to see the role for this ship. It is a good ship, don't get me wrong. It is very good at sticking to pushing in BBs and torping them to prevent a flank collapse. It is the best in its class for that. But... It requires, that you are spawned on the right side of the map, that the enemy DD was handled for you and that the enemy is actively pushing into you. My most recent games just feel like I have to completely give up Cap presence, because I have nothing to contest them with against the new gunboat DDs and the still powerful rocket planes. The fact you have to choose between Smoke and Torpedo Reload Booster is just... A nail to the coffin. It simply feels like the line has been powercreeped a lot and doesn't have a place in the new gamestyle anymore.

 

Could someone enlighten me, what to do in situations, when you play against a CV and two or three gunboat DDs? Abandon caps and just try to screen your team? That's putting all of your faith in winning in your teammates, which can be... Risky to say the least.

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11 minutes ago, Lea_Flamma said:

I have had a small break from the game, but recently returned with the release of the European line. And I must admit, the gameplay changed quite a bit. Not in terms of ships, just the approach to combat and class roles. I have been trying to play some Kagero the other day and well... I am quite bamboozled on what I should do with her now.

 

  • 5.4km stealth is best in class, wonderful if not for all the radar and CVs in the games right now;
  • 10km torps used to be good on her, but now there are so many 10-12km radars, its impossible to make consecutive torpedo attacks;
  • pitiful guns, with good alpha, but sluggish rotation and long reload;
  • the ship is slow, like seriously slow; if you get detected, you are not escaping and if you get radared, anything and their mothers can just rush you.

 

I seriously struggle to see the role for this ship. It is a good ship, don't get me wrong. It is very good at sticking to pushing in BBs and torping them to prevent a flank collapse. It is the best in its class for that. But... It requires, that you are spawned on the right side of the map, that the enemy DD was handled for you and that the enemy is actively pushing into you. My most recent games just feel like I have to completely give up Cap presence, because I have nothing to contest them with against the new gunboat DDs and the still powerful rocket planes. The fact you have to choose between Smoke and Torpedo Reload Booster is just... A nail to the coffin. It simply feels like the line has been powercreeped a lot and doesn't have a place in the new gamestyle anymore.

 

Could someone enlighten me, what to do in situations, when you play against a CV and two or three gunboat DDs? Abandon caps and just try to screen your team? That's putting all of your faith in winning in your teammates, which can be... Risky to say the least.

  1. radar is in the game for years, time to get used to it, CV and radar is an issue for every DD
  2. they are still good, not many silver DD have more, otherwise see point 1
  3. they are torpboats, not gunboats, nonetheless, as you pointed out, their alpha is quite potent, learn when to use it
  4. most DD are just 2-3 knots faster, that is not much

Her role did not change.

You can still go for the caps, just be more careful. Watch out for the planes. You should outspot most gunboats. If stuff gets hairy, use smoke.

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30 minut temu, ColonelPete napisał:
  1. radar is in the game for years, time to get used to it, CV and radar is an issue for every DD
  2. they are still good, not many silver DD have more, otherwise see point 1
  3. they are torpboats, not gunboats, nonetheless, as you pointed out, their alpha is quite potent, learn when to use it
  4. most DD are just 2-3 knots faster, that is not much

Her role did not change.

You can still go for the caps, just be more careful. Watch out for the planes. You should outspot most gunboats. If stuff gets hairy, use smoke.

Oh, I am aware of Radar. It is just the amount of ships with it has increased drastically. It was common to have one to two radars per game. Now I rarely face less than four. Alaskas, Moskvas, all the DDs with radar... Add to that nonexistant AA on almost any DD and you get a very unfun experience. To the point I have recently started playing with Reload Booster, as smoke is just not worth it anymore. It has very long cooldown, lasts long as well, but with the gun range, you cannot really use it to gunboat anything. And the CV will just drop Fighters on top of your smoke to st you regardless when you try to disengage.

Kagero is 35 knots, Kidd is 38, Ognevoi is 42.5? I am not sure here. To torp you need to get within 7-8 km, less so when they push towards you. It's already well within range of most of the radars in the game. And when they pop it, you have very hard time disengaging. I feel like Akizuki could have accomplished everything the Kagero is doing while also being a viable gunboat. With the Reload Boost it can drop the same amount of torps and can actually use its smoke to rain fire. It just feels like the Torpboats are outclassed by other DDs. RN is in an amazing spot with their sort smokes. You have the new European DDs with super fast torps, that have a heal. It just feels like Kagero has been reduced to the anti-push DD and late game cap contesting. 

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1 minute ago, Lea_Flamma said:

Oh, I am aware of Radar. It is just the amount of ships with it has increased drastically. It was common to have one to two radars per game. Now I rarely face less than four. Alaskas, Moskvas, all the DDs with radar... Add to that nonexistant AA on almost any DD and you get a very unfun experience. To the point I have recently started playing with Reload Booster, as smoke is just not worth it anymore.

And here is your problem.

Smoke still has it worth. It helps with a lot lot of the problems you mentioned.

One can play without smoke, but it is MUCH harder or you play extremly passive.

 

4 minutes ago, Lea_Flamma said:

Kagero is 35 knots, Kidd is 38, Ognevoi is 42.5? I am not sure here. To torp you need to get within 7-8 km, less so when they push towards you. It's already well within range of most of the radars in the game. And when they pop it, you have very hard time disengaging. I feel like Akizuki could have accomplished everything the Kagero is doing while also being a viable gunboat. With the Reload Boost it can drop the same amount of torps and can actually use its smoke to rain fire. It just feels like the Torpboats are outclassed by other DDs. RN is in an amazing spot with their sort smokes. You have the new European DDs with super fast torps, that have a heal. It just feels like Kagero has been reduced to the anti-push DD and late game cap contesting. 

Ognevoi has 37.

The RU gunboats and FR DD are the very fast ones.

Akizuki is EXTREMLY slow and the torpedo reload booster cannot compensate the missing launcher.

RN DD have a similar speed as Kagero and have much weaker torps. They are superior cap contesters, but weaker vs BB.

EU DD are hardmode. They have the fast, long range torps, but weak torpedo damage. They have gun DPM, but no smoke and have to disengage by careful positioning. Caught in the open and they are toast.

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55 minut temu, ColonelPete napisał:

And here is your problem.

Smoke still has it worth. It helps with a lot lot of the problems you mentioned.

One can play without smoke, but it is MUCH harder or you play extremly passive.

 

Ognevoi has 37.

The RU gunboats and FR DD are the very fast ones.

Akizuki is EXTREMLY slow and the torpedo reload booster cannot compensate the missing launcher.

RN DD have a similar speed as Kagero and have much weaker torps. They are superior cap contesters, but weaker vs BB.

EU DD are hardmode. They have the fast, long range torps, but weak torpedo damage. They have gun DPM, but no smoke and have to disengage by careful positioning. Caught in the open and they are toast.

Still... In Tier X the top winning DDs right now are Somers, Hayate and Smaland with Shimakaze closing the list on the very last spot. It just feels like the IJN Torp line does not find itself well in the current state of the game.

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1 minute ago, Lea_Flamma said:

Still... In Tier X the top winning DDs right now are Somers, Hayate and Smaland with Shimakaze closing the list on the very last spot. It just feels like the IJN Torp line does not find itself well in the current state of the game.

Shima is not the Kagero and comparing WR between silver and premium ships is a bad idea.

 

The silver DD significantly stronger than Shima are:

  • Daring, which got her some parameter reductions and, if that does not help, probably gets her some future ones
  • Kleber, which is relativly new
  • Halland, which is very new
  • maybe Yueyang, which just got improved

The remaining silver DD have a strength comparable to Shima or are even weaker.

 

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On 5/6/2020 at 2:54 PM, ColonelPete said:

maybe Yueyang, which just got improved

If you are talking about guns - shima can outgun the YY, Gearing has still better reload than YY (which honestly is absurd issue)

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On 5/6/2020 at 1:27 PM, Lea_Flamma said:

Oh, I am aware of Radar. It is just the amount of ships with it has increased drastically. It was common to have one to two radars per game. Now I rarely face less than four. Alaskas, Moskvas, all the DDs with radar... Add to that nonexistant AA on almost any DD and you get a very unfun experience. To the point I have recently started playing with Reload Booster, as smoke is just not worth it anymore. It has very long cooldown, lasts long as well, but with the gun range, you cannot really use it to gunboat anything. And the CV will just drop Fighters on top of your smoke to st you regardless when you try to disengage.

Kagero is 35 knots, Kidd is 38, Ognevoi is 42.5? I am not sure here. To torp you need to get within 7-8 km, less so when they push towards you. It's already well within range of most of the radars in the game. And when they pop it, you have very hard time disengaging. I feel like Akizuki could have accomplished everything the Kagero is doing while also being a viable gunboat. With the Reload Boost it can drop the same amount of torps and can actually use its smoke to rain fire. It just feels like the Torpboats are outclassed by other DDs. RN is in an amazing spot with their sort smokes. You have the new European DDs with super fast torps, that have a heal. It just feels like Kagero has been reduced to the anti-push DD and late game cap contesting. 

Not really sure, if we have now more radars. While they added radar ships, they also added way more non-radar ships.

If you start with US, japanese, german and russian T10 ships. than you get 2:2 radar:non-radar ships earlier. So in the past you had 50% of the cruisers with radar.

 

If you add now all the other cruisers:

 

Radar:

Stalin
Mino (Radar and non-Radar)
PR (should be rare)
Wooster

Salem

 

Non-Radar:

Venezia

Mino (Radar and non-Radar)

Goliath
Yoshino
Henri

Colbert

 

The relation is now 7:8. So technically the offer for non-radar ships is now larger.

 

Playing IJN ships though feels often like playing with a lot downsides. But this is since years the case

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10 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Playing IJN ships though feels often like playing with a lot downsides. But this is since years the case

That's why I play them with TRB. I wish Shima could swap smoke for it too. All or nothing. Yugumo is the best with this option as t9 sees the least number of CV of all tiers. Kagero is good in games without CVs but to often sees them and then it is very painful exercise in patience or very quick journey back to port. Lots of hard work for doubtful reward. No point really to play Kagero nowadays if you have Yugumo. Shame as I like this boat a lot.

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I play Kagero with TRB as well, because the IJN Smoke is just... It lasts super long and while a nice panic button... Anything can just push you out of your smoke. And while yes, there is a stable ratio of Radar to Non-Radar ships, the amount of radar ships per game has increased. The game overall is in a very anti-DD state, I have to say. CV can blap you for half your HP with one flyby and most DDs have nothing to defend themselves with. Pushing caps is a no no most of the time.

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On 5/8/2020 at 2:56 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

Not really sure, if we have now more radars. While they added radar ships, they also added way more non-radar ships.

If you start with US, japanese, german and russian T10 ships. than you get 2:2 radar:non-radar ships earlier. So in the past you had 50% of the cruisers with radar.

 

If you add now all the other cruisers:

 

Radar:

Stalin
Mino (Radar and non-Radar)
PR (should be rare)
Wooster

Salem

 

Non-Radar:

Venezia

Mino (Radar and non-Radar)

Goliath
Yoshino
Henri

Colbert

 

The relation is now 7:8. So technically the offer for non-radar ships is now larger.

 

Playing IJN ships though feels often like playing with a lot downsides. But this is since years the case

erm what ? I don't quite follow ... You are counting the ships as if they were equal and radar was the only variable. unfortunately that is not the case as certain ships are more common than others.

 

yes your point makes sense but is totally not valid due to the above ... and we'll get 2 new radar cruisers out of 2 new cruisers coming into the game (tech tree T10) ...

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Just play her with TRB, smoke is not worth it anymore. You simply give up on DD roles and transition into big ship hunter. Mid/late game you can switch back to DD role.

 

EDIT: engine boost upgrade is a must

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I'm now grinding IJN DDs and at tier VII you start to see a lot of radars because you fall a lot in tier VIII and IX. Once you get Kagero is 2 or 3 radars per game+CV. Just a Cleveland is already enough to delete u super fast. Tier IX is USN cruisers MM, full of Alaskas, Des Moines... And now the new russian cruisers with 12km radar. + the Hydro, that make IJN torps easy to dodge. 

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Regrinded the IJN torp line, imo they're still viable (even grinded all the way through the Yuugumo with the F3 torps).

Smoke is a better than TRB in my opinion, since it allows you to gun other DDs while losing as less health as possible.

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