Who thought double CV games at t8 is fun?

[Jaki_AJK]

2 minutes ago, Johnny_Moneto said:

I guess you were the only DD on your team? In that case you can only stay back even more. At the start of the battle turn around and hide behind your mates.

Unlimited planes, kind of. A carrier does not always have all planes available all the times. If your mates can shoot down a couple of waves of rocket planes it will take the CVs a long time to replenish those. A Lexington has 16 rocket planes and can produce 19 more throughout the battle (that's a max, in reality it will be less), each new plane taking 1 minute to fabricate.

 

Again, I don't say it is fun. I just say in a 2-CV-game you gotta change your mindset drastically when playing DD. Basically you go in full survival mode.

No, there were other DDs too. But i was top tier, so they went for me i think. Even hiding behind mates is useless as they can strike you with impunity. And shooting down planes? Of 2 CVs? And in tier 6-8 battle? C'mon, even a t10 ship build for AA can't do that. We just have to agree with the community and CCs that this CV rework is just a mess with 0 skill ceiling.

[BrusilovX]

7 minutes ago, Jaki_AJK said:

I could have given the replay if not for this stupid limit of 20 replays. 

It's to that hard to remove that limit.  Either some editing or there is a mod in both Aslain's and the Modpack that does the editing for you.  Both completely legal.

 

It seems just like another whine to me.

[Jaki_AJK]

2 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

Your last part sums up why this is a whine thread, and not a discussion thread for feedback - you show that you wanted people to agree with you that "CVs are bad for this game, and I clearly didn't play bad".

I don't have your reply obviously, but I'll throw some feedback regardless (my assumptions might be wrong here, but still):
- A lone fighter won't cover you from 2 CV squadrons. They won't stop the squadrons either, and if the two attack squads intend to attack you, they might risk being engaged by the fighter. The squads will generally be severely damaged or shot down after they passed you on the first attack. The other CV also gets "free damage" if they gang up, since the fighter only engages one of the squads coming for you.

- You might not have turned off your AA once the CVs came looking for you. Do that.

- You might not have smoked up. If they still spotted you despite your AA being off, you should have blown a smoke (and only when unspotted inside the smoke, have turned on AA). Also consider when you were (if you were) blowing your smoke. If you did it too late and were near a full stop, the CV will know your approximate location inside the smoke and strike it, even if he doesn't have vision inside the smoke. At that point, most CVs will give up hovering around the smoke due to AA (especially if you have cruisers nearby for additional AA, which is likely if this is so early into the game as you claim). If the CVs for some reason were still hovering around your smoke (since you perhaps were too far off from friendly ships), also don't fire your guns. If the CVs were still looking for you inside that smoke (especially true with 2 squads), that gives away your location inside the smoke and they could attempt to strike that spot.

- A fighter dropped on top of you can also somewhat give your position away to the enemy CVs. To work around this, try not to linger in that area for too long unless you are willing to smoke up.

- Consider taking a detour when going for a cap in a CV game. DD air detection radius is generally very low, so as long as you didn't fire your guns or had your AA turned off, the CVs would have to scout quite a bit (unless you of course headed straight for the cap along the most obvious of routes). Most CVs won't hunt you actively with rocket planes if they can't find you early, as that puts them at risk of getting shot down by other ship's AA. The Kiev has about a 3 km air detection radius when specced, so if you stay somewhat close to friendly ships, that puts a lot of risk (and potentially no return if you remain unspotted) on the enemy CV squads if they wanna linger around in the hopes of finding you. Hence why they will generally abandon the area, or just use the rocket planes on cruisers instead before they are shot down.

Fyi, i said that last line because you play CVs and it is very satisfying for you. I wanted feedback from CV player like u gave here about fighters etc. But you classified this thread as whining and you were suspecting me for bad play, hence i concluded that i won't get any feedback anyways as everyone thinks the same. But after so many replies, its clearly evident that there is no way in double CV games to survive as a DD.  

[Jaki_AJK]

5 minutes ago, BrusilovX said:

It's to that hard to remove that limit.  Either some editing or there is a mod in both Aslain's and the Modpack that does the editing for you.  Both completely legal.

 

It seems just like another whine to me.

Ohh, i could use some help about it. Where can i find it in aslains modpack? I use modpack, but only for few things (like enemy info, navigator, crosshair, detection timer, score timer etc)

[Bratoev]

12 minutes ago, Jaki_AJK said:

Turning off AA is pointless as the detection via air and my AA range are same.

Be that as it may contrary to popular belief CV players have only 2 eyes. Manage your AA because every little bit helps.

12 minutes ago, Jaki_AJK said:

 And i was in my spawn. No obvious heading.

You claimed they came over for 2 passes each. At the spawn with a number of friendly ships around you those attack runs should've been mauled to shreds upon reaching you. Also regarding the heading. Try to turn bow on to the incoming rockets. This will minimize the damage.  Additionally as stated you can make the CV give up the chase if they can't find you soon enough. After that you have breathing room once you see the bombers flying as they will be going after other targets.

Finally CVs live on time. The more time shaven between attack runs the better. So wasting time chasing you is something most will not do and if they do you are giving your team an advantage.

 

That being said you gave up your smoke for heal to be a better gunboat. Its a tradeoff you have to live with regardless of the matchmaking.

[J4CK_D4N13L5]

11 hours ago, Jaki_AJK said:

 

I didn't even last 2 minutes in my kiev as 2 CVs combined killed me with 2 strikes each even though i tried to dodge and did all shenanigans.. But who had this great idea in first place. Low tiers i can understand. But high tiers? How are non smoke ships supposed to deal with this?

What do you understand from low tiers?

Where tier 3 ships have no AA and CV's are totally OP?

Where there are 2 of them in a 7 vs 7 battle and the other 5 are tier 3?

Now there is a reason to complain!

[Jaki_AJK]

1 minute ago, Bratoev said:

Be that as it may contrary to popular belief CV players have only 2 eyes. Manage your AA because every little bit helps.

You claimed they came over for 2 passes each. At the spawn with a number of friendly ships around you those attack runs should've been mauled to shreds upon reaching you. Also regarding the heading. Try to turn bow on to the incoming rockets. This will minimize the damage.  Additionally as stated you can make the CV give up the chase if they can't find you soon enough. After that you have breathing room once you see the bombers flying as they will be going after other targets.

Finally CVs live on time. The more time shaven between attack runs the better. So wasting time chasing you is something most will not do and if they do you are giving your team an advantage.

 

That being said you gave up your smoke for heal to be a better gunboat. Its a tradeoff you have to live with regardless of the matchmaking.

The AA in tier 6-8 is trash anyways. So no planes were shot down. And enemy put fighters on top me, so i was perma spotted and they did 2 strikes each with same attack aircraft.

[BrusilovX]

10 minutes ago, Jaki_AJK said:

Ohh, i could use some help about it. Where can i find it in aslains modpack? I use modpack, but only for few things (like enemy info, navigator, crosshair, detection timer, score timer etc)

It's in the modpack.

 

Look at the last tab (Other modifications) scroll down to Replays and select Off Limit.

 

[Hirohito]

2 minutes ago, Jaki_AJK said:

But after so many replies, its clearly evident that there is no way in double CV games to survive as a DD.  

This is just not true.
Granted, I started out as a CV player so I know how the mindset of the CV works when looking for DDs, it's however just not true that "there is no way you can survive in a double CV game as a DD".
I'm not the best of CV or DD players, but CVs generally don't give me any trouble when playing as a DD - radar does (likely because I don't have any experience as a radar cruiser).

Starting out in a CV game, I generally take a wide detour towards the cap, even turning back and towards the flank and/or friendly cruisers depending on how the rocket planes move when scouting, always having my eyes on the movement of the rocket planes and my air detection radius on the minimap, as well as my finger on the smoke button if needed.
I will blow my smoke without hesitation if the rocket planes spot me and have time to arm their attack, and if they don't have time to arm the attack I will hold on to the smoke until they've passed me once and are trying to follow up with another strike.
Usually the CV gives up after 20-40 seconds of not detecting the DD, at which point you are free to head towards the cap as the CV predictably turns towards the other caps and tries to look for you or another DD elsewhere.
If the enemy DD ends up capping that cap in the meantime, so be it - you are still alive with your health intact.
If your CV spots the enemy DD and the enemy CV doesn't spot you, even better,. Your team now has information on enemy DD location and possibly a health lead on the enemy DD, which is forced to play safe while you are healthy and able to contest the cap or outright kill the enemy DD if he ever pops up in front of you again.

[Dutchy_2019]

13 hours ago, Jaki_AJK said:

 

I didn't even last 2 minutes in my kiev as 2 CVs combined killed me with 2 strikes each even though i tried to dodge and did all shenanigans.. But who had this great idea in first place. Low tiers i can understand. But high tiers? How are non smoke ships supposed to deal with this?

 

I agree with your general sentiment, but for the bolded you get an absolute thumbs down. And as a Kiev, you should not complain at all, compared to lower tiers you actually have it easy.

 

- Low tiers: limited captains, generally also limited smokes for DD's

- As T3 dumped into T4 double CV very regularly, while having NO AA at all.

- Most lower and mid-tier ships (especially BB's) have NO maneuvrability, so (in combination with point B), if you have a half-capable CV player, torpedo's are guaranteed to hit.

- Damage of torpedo's to CVs - comparative to health of DD's and number of them - negligible. 

- Many cruisers do very little damage to CVs

- Until recently, lower tiers had to deal with 3 CV games regularly.

 

Things slightly improve if you go higher, though there the problem at least for T5 is that it gets regularly uptiered, facing T6 (double?) carriers. Rinse and repeat - roughly - what happens at lower tiers.

[AnotherDuck]

13 hours ago, Jaki_AJK said:

But after so many replies, its clearly evident that there is no way in double CV games to survive as a DD.  

Not quite true. It is possible to survive, but, as usual, it requires more skill from the DD player than from any other player, and it requires some boring, stale gameplay.

 

Sometimes I wonder how many DDs just deliberately suicide because that way they can at least get one thrill from the match rather than a boring camp fest that takes far too long for the payoff. I mean, it's not how I think, but I can certainly understand why some players would think like that.

[El2aZeR]

14 hours ago, Hirohito said:

Your last part sums up why this is a whine thread, and not a discussion thread for feedback - you show that you wanted people to agree with you that "CVs are bad for this game, and I clearly didn't play bad".

I don't have your reply obviously, but I'll throw some feedback regardless (my assumptions might be wrong here, but still):
- A lone fighter won't cover you from 2 CV squadrons. They won't stop the squadrons either, and if the two attack squads intend to attack you, they might risk being engaged by the fighter. The squads will generally be severely damaged or shot down after they passed you on the first attack. The other CV also gets "free damage" if they gang up, since the fighter only engages one of the squads coming for you.

- You might not have turned off your AA once the CVs came looking for you. Do that.

- You might not have smoked up. If they still spotted you despite your AA being off, you should have blown a smoke (and only when unspotted inside the smoke, have turned on AA). Also consider when you were (if you were) blowing your smoke. If you did it too late and were near a full stop, the CV will know your approximate location inside the smoke and strike it, even if he doesn't have vision inside the smoke. At that point, most CVs will give up hovering around the smoke due to AA (especially if you have cruisers nearby for additional AA, which is likely if this is so early into the game as you claim). If the CVs for some reason were still hovering around your smoke (since you perhaps were too far off from friendly ships), also don't fire your guns. If the CVs were still looking for you inside that smoke (especially true with 2 squads), that gives away your location inside the smoke and they could attempt to strike that spot.

- If you didn't pick smoke, that's on you. It's a fair choice to make, but since you made it (and you know there are 2 CVs, which you also spotted were heading for you) then you gotta be really careful in that double CV game. Do not steam ahead, as you gotta hang back a lot more.

- A fighter dropped on top of you can also somewhat give your position away to the enemy CVs. To work around this, try not to linger in that area for too long unless you are willing to smoke up.

- Consider taking a detour when going for a cap in a CV game. DD air detection radius is generally very low, so as long as you didn't fire your guns or had your AA turned off, the CVs would have to scout quite a bit (unless you of course headed straight for the cap along the most obvious of routes). Most CVs won't hunt you actively with rocket planes if they can't find you early, as that puts them at risk of getting shot down by other ship's AA. The Kiev has about a 3 km air detection radius when specced, so if you stay somewhat close to friendly ships, that puts a lot of risk (and potentially no return if you remain unspotted) on the enemy CV squads if they wanna linger around in the hopes of finding you. Hence why they will generally abandon the area, or just use the rocket planes on cruisers instead before they are shot down. A bonus is that if you were unspotted during the time the first two rocket squads were heading for you, most CVs will give up on hunting you for the time being, and instead launch TBs or DBs in the hopes of scoring damage against other ships. This means they won't pursue you as actively, and if they do end up spotting you, they have squads which are far less dangerous to you.

 

Allow me to demonstrate why your post is pointless to the topic as it conveys faulty information.

- A lone fighter won't stop anything given that generally DD AA is not strong enough to stop a CV from despawning it. All the friendly CV does is give your position away. That's right, your own CV trying to provide fighter cover for you is actually griefing you. Fun design, isn't it?

- Doesn't help. The CV knows when it is detected, this can be used to determine the location of a DD pretty easily. Shutting off your AA makes it a bit harder, but to any smart CV player it makes little difference.

- So you've blown a precious consumable for nothing but survival while the enemy CV, having made you worthless to your team, is now free to kill another target. This is not outplaying the CV, this is the CV outplaying you by merely existing and passing by in your general location. There are no downsides to a CV forcing you to smoke, there are plenty for you as a DD.

- Why play a DD then quite frankly? If you're this restricted in your movement and therefore effectiveness as a gunboat DD then you may as well play something else entirely, making your entire sub-class obsolete.

- Yes, it's great design that supposed "supporting actions" are griefing in reality just like every other aspect of CV play, no?

- Again, a CV has little to no trouble determining the location of a unspotted DD by using the mechanics provided to them. 3km air spotting allows for first approach strikes. Staying only "somewhat close" means the AA of friendly ships is practically useless as they provide less AA than you have yourself in even a Shimakaze. For effective AA cover you need to hug up to half your team inside 2-3km which is an untenable prospect for any DD.

 

14 hours ago, Hirohito said:

Granted, I started out as a CV player so I know how the mindset of the CV works when looking for DDs

 

Clearly you don't given that you believe shutting off your AA means a CV has to spend considerable amount of time finding you.

 

14 hours ago, Hirohito said:

Starting out in a CV game, I generally take a wide detour towards the cap, even turning back and towards the flank and/or friendly cruisers depending on how the rocket planes move when scouting, always having my eyes on the movement of the rocket planes and my air detection radius on the minimap, as well as my finger on the smoke button if needed.
I will blow my smoke without hesitation if the rocket planes spot me and have time to arm their attack, and if they don't have time to arm the attack I will hold on to the smoke until they've passed me once and are trying to follow up with another strike.
Usually the CV gives up after 20-40 seconds of not detecting the DD, at which point you are free to head towards the cap as the CV predictably turns towards the other caps and tries to look for you or another DD elsewhere.
If the enemy DD ends up capping that cap in the meantime, so be it - you are still alive with your health intact.
If your CV spots the enemy DD and the enemy CV doesn't spot you, even better,. Your team now has information on enemy DD location and possibly a health lead on the enemy DD, which is forced to play safe while you are healthy and able to contest the cap or outright kill the enemy DD if he ever pops up in front of you again.

 

So basically you're telling DDs to go afk for the first two minutes given that this has about the same effect. Such great design. Truly not broken at all.

Yes, the CV has now forced you to use smoke to no detriment on his part. Again, amazing design. Not stupid at all.

The description is just plain wrong. A more accurate wording would be that the CV has done its job zoning you out from caps, already placing a massive advantage in the hands of its team not even 2 minutes into the match. And that you seriously believe you can just retake caps when a CV is the outright best cap defender in the entire game is extremely laughable.

Which just goes to show how laughably broken reworked CVs are given that they can do this within the first minute of the match, not to mention that they can not only provide their team with a health lead in DDs but an outright kill. I'm sorry, weren't you talking about how CVs are no trouble at all? You've basically just stated "if the other guy gets griefed but not you it's all fine".

 

Sure, the stuff you describe may work against potato CVs, but that's not you succeeding against the CV, that's just the CV player failing. The outcome of any engagement thus lies solely in the hands of the CV player, your own skill plays a minuscule, if any part in it.

[Hopeless_Guppy]

On 5/4/2020 at 2:51 AM, Jaki_AJK said:

 

I didn't even last 2 minutes in my kiev as 2 CVs combined killed me with 2 strikes each even though i tried to dodge and did all shenanigans.. But who had this great idea in first place. Low tiers i can understand. But high tiers? How are non smoke ships supposed to deal with this?

'Cough' 'cough''..... I love them, the other CV cn carry me

[DFens_666]

5 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

- A lone fighter won't stop anything given that generally DD AA is not strong enough to stop a CV from despawning it. All the friendly CV does is give your position away. That's right, your own CV trying to provide fighter cover for you is actually griefing you. Fun design, isn't it? 

 

I think i can still record that one game, where exactly this happened:

Enemy CV was looking for DDs. He havent found me yet and was 8km away, looking at the cap for me. My CV popped a Fighter a few km ahead of me. IMMEDIATELY the enemy CV run towards that fighter, so i had to turn away. Now, the enemies had a Kronshtadt behind an island in radar range. What did he do? Radar me aswell! So not only did my CV tell the enemy CV "hello, there is my DD" no, he did it for the Radar cruiser aswell

[BLUB__BLUB]

7 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Sure, the stuff you describe may work against potato CVs, but that's not you succeeding against the CV, that's just the CV player failing. The outcome of any engagement thus lies solely in the hands of the CV player, your own skill plays a minuscule, if any part in it.

@Hirohito This is true. However, there are A LOT of potato CVs out there. 

And certainly this stuff will not work agains @El2aZeR.

But then again... I think anyone in a cruiser is also FFd when he is in any other ship, no matter which one. 

 

@Jaki_AJK However a DD that doesn't grasp this idea, well yeah, he'll live as long as it takes for the CV to find him.

Shorter, if there are two CVs (which I find abominable, too). Same as  BB going straightline same speed when there's a few DDs.

Or a cruiser showing broadside to a (few) BBs. You won't live long... 

 

2 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

I think i can still record that one game, where exactly this happened:

Enemy CV was looking for DDs. He havent found me yet and was 8km away, looking at the cap for me. My CV popped a Fighter a few km ahead of me. IMMEDIATELY the enemy CV run towards that fighter, so i had to turn away. Now, the enemies had a Kronshtadt behind an island in radar range. What did he do? Radar me aswell! So not only did my CV tell the enemy CV "hello, there is my DD" no, he did it for the Radar cruiser aswell

I've seen it plenty times. That is why I do not drop fighters over DDs. At most I'll drop them in front, so they intercept the other planes.

Or I'll drop them such that they spot the enemy, then my DD can smoke up and still shoot something.

Furthermore, teammates may shoot the (radar)cruiser that is a threat to my DD. 

 

But 1 DD in a double-CV match... like an Emerald in a match with 10BBs.

 

 

[Hirohito]

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

@Hirohito This is true. However, there are A LOT of potato CVs out there. 

And certainly this stuff will not work agains @El2aZeR.

 

This might be very true, and it is kind of my point when relating to the average CV "discussions" here.
Super unicum CVs are extremely rare, and not really something we meet in our average random battles.
This also generally annoys me with these forums - people whine about the average CV, yet the average CV is so easy to counter.
Then some super unicum CV comes in and says CVs are OP (perhaps at the very top level), and pours fuel on the fire where people claim that CVs are OP because some super unicum said so - even if the 52% CV that killed them last game (and caused an angry forum rant) could have been countered with some easy measures.
In the end, it just keeps the player back from improving himself, even if whining there and then feels good, its really counterproductive in the long run.

This kind of reminds me of the Starcraft 2 forums - people from all over the leagues (99% or more being below grandmaster level) will generally always whine on the forums that Terran, Zerg or Protoss are OP (depending on what they themselves play), and justify their whining by pointing to the fact that one of those races recently won the recent majority of pro gamer-cups in a landslide.
Yet the very same players fail to realize that an imbalance on the very top level has absolutely no influence on their own lower level play, where the players have a large margin of improvement when dealing with CVs (or Zerg for that matter).
The whining is also really counterproductive, because it keeps the majority of players from wanting to adapt and improve their own play and just reinforces a defeatist attitide.
(Matter of fact, one SC2 streamer named Avilo became an online meme because he always whined over the opponent playing the "OP race" or otherwise accused people of cheating. He never really managed to break out of his low grandmaster-level play, even if he had the APM and mechanics to reach high GM. He was also very predictable to counter by other GMs, because he refused to stop playing his turtle mech style and adapt to a meta change and instead demanded that the game be changed to his needs)

[BLUB__BLUB]

4 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

This might be true, but it is my earnest opinion that it's largely irrelevant.

As I said there is indeed a LARGE volume of potato-CVs out there. We agree mate.

A DD can negate 75% of CV-players using these methods. I regularly div-up with a DD main.

He usually lives to the end of the game, and ends up top score. 

 

4 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

Super unicum CVs are extremely rare, and not really something you meet in your average random battles.

Wel... only if the DD-playter is good in äll of the above"he will survive against me.

And I'm not unicum, far from it. I'm quite savvy... "plenty good enough" in some ships. 

 

4 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

This also generally annoys me with these forums - people whine about the average CV, yet the average CV is so easy to counter.
Then some super unicum CV comes in and says CVs are OP (perhaps at the very top level), and pours fuel on the fire.

It is because you do not understand what they mean. COUNTER means you have some kind of hitting back.

But you do not. Even if I can't kill the damn DD or it takes me a long, long time - he is NOT countering my CV.

Because there's nothing he can hurt me. Yes he can keep me busy so I can't farm a BB. But I keep him busy as well.

Meanwhile, the risk of going to the bottom is his, and not mine. It's not as much OP, as "broken". 

 

4 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

This kind of reminds me of the Starcraft 2 forums - people from all over the leagues (99% or more being below grandmaster level) will generally always whine that Terran, Zerg or Protoss are OP (depending on what they themselves play), and justify their whining by pointing to the fact that one of those races recently won the recent pro gamer-cups in a landslide.
Yet the very same players fail to realize that an imbalance on the very top level has absolutely no influence on lower level play, where the players have a large margin of improvement when dealing with CVs (or Zerg for that matter).
The whining is also really counterproductive, because it keeps the player from wanting to adapt and improve his own play.
(Matter of fact, one SC2 streamer in particular became a meme because he always whined over the opponent playing the "OP race", and never managed to break out of his low grandmaster-level play, even if he had the APM and mechanics to reach high GM. He was also very predictable to counter, because he refused to stop playing his turtle mech style and adapt to a meta change)

I don't understand all that, but it is true most DD players just whine and do nothing at all for change.

Upto the sort that doesn't even give a damn if I release torps on them, and then shouts all kind of hell when they get killed by CV torpedoes. 

Those that sit still in smoke shooting (so their position is known) and then they get dropped on...

That's not me being good, it is them being... well... less than great. 

[MrWastee]

- q's up, obviously way after midnight? check

- complains about MM, even though stated hisself like 5k players on only? check

 

..... answering ur own questions already one could think u'll get to the conclusion as well by urself...

in other words: don't expect anything good to happen after midnight lol...

[Amazing07]

spreadsheet says all is fun and balans in the world of Wargaming.  

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, Hirohito said:

This kind of reminds me of the Starcraft 2 forums

 

Rather ironic that you mention StarCraft given that this is a game balanced from the top down, meaning 99,9% of all players are in fact completely irrelevant to balance and only the very top matters.

You have just proven our point about how broken CVs are in addition to eliminating your own.

[CptBarney]

12 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Rather ironic that you mention StarCraft given that this is a game balanced from the top down, meaning 99,9% of all players are in fact completely irrelevant to balance and only the very top matters.

You have just proven our point about how broken CVs are in addition to eliminating your own.

Makes me wonder what the game would be like if weegee did that instead of balance by averages thing.

Makes me scream when my cv puts down a fighter squad on or near me, many cv's then suddenly make a bee line for my position even if they don't do much and then i get yeeted by the second squad.

 

I get they are trying to help but still.

[Itwastuesday]

Ah, I see destroyers are finally being replaced by the class that does everything they do but better!

[Hirohito]

48 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Rather ironic that you mention StarCraft given that this is a game balanced from the top down, meaning 99,9% of all players are in fact completely irrelevant to balance and only the very top matters.

You have just proven our point about how broken CVs are in addition to eliminating your own.

Using that general smug and arrogant tone again I see.
Why are you using that tone? Are you trying to impress anyone with your "superior understanding of logic"?
I've seen people use that tone in so many online discussions before, and I'm really not impressed by it.
Please try to have a more gentle tone in the future - you might even get your point across easier that way.
No worries though, I won't play ball and reverse your logic, because that is a smug and shitty thing to do when having a civilized discussion.

Now back on topic:
Whether or not a game is balanced "top-down" or "bottom-up" is irrelevant to what I'm arguing, as what I'm arguing is that players can generally do a lot to counter an average CV, just like one can do in SC2 if one for instance struggles with the X race in a certain matchup (up until the very high GM MMR, where things get more pronounced).
Yet you still have tons of whining on both forums over perceived injustice, even if that "injustice" is perfectly manageable when regarding lower and mid skill levels.

Like how silver- to diamond-league players are complaining about matchups, even though their problems could easily have been solved through better macro and scouting.
It just becomes silly at that point - work on yourself, not on the forums.
At very high levels this changes of course, as players can be assumed to have somewhat equal skills levels and little direct room to improve further, making design imbalances apparent.

 

[El2aZeR]

31 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

Using that general smug and arrogant tone again I see.

 

I too would diverge to something completely irrelevant when I've been proven wrong to hide it. /s

 

32 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

Yet you still have tons of whining on both forums over perceived injustice, even if that "injustice" is perfectly manageable when regarding lower and mid skill levels.

 

Which changes that these players have a valid point... how exactly? Do I need to be a rocket scientist to know that having a fuel leak is not something that's good?

I mean sure, you can make potato CVs fail harder, but what exactly does that have to do with complaining about reworked CVs being inherently broken? Should people wait until they're beset upon by a SU CV player before complaining? Or should surface ship players just accept that their own skill plays no part in CV - surface ship interaction and whenever they are capable of "countering" the enemy CV that they just got off with pure luck via the enemy CV being bad?

 

Besides, you can justify any broken mechanic by using that kind of logic. There are people who manage less than 20k average damage in a Musashi e.g. Does that suddenly make the ship okay?

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

CV is broken.  

It's too damn expensive to play her anyway. So WG's plan failed with this player, not like I qualified for their action of reducing the ballooning credits of the WOWS economy plan.

I only take CV out to battles when it's purely out of spite, literally.